Relay and Wiring Problems Older Belt Sander
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  1. #1
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    Jun 2016
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    Relay and Wiring Problems Older Belt Sander

    Hi all. i have an older craftsman 4" disc-belt sander that when i turned on the switch today it flashed and smoked at the switch. after removing locking switch i found that there was relay in with the switch. that relay is a emb mod.101 part number 814589. i use this belt sander for grinding my TIG tungsten and use different belts for other uses.

    its a table top sander that worked well but a worn wire insulation shorted the relay. (pretty confident). is there another type, size or style that i could subistute in the originals place. the relay i looked up on the craftsman sight says no longer available.

    am i able to substitute another type or am i stuck buying another one? im a disabled, retired auto body guy so money isn't plentiful. i would appreciate any help. THANKS ROB
    lincoln 125sp
    monkey wards 250 ac/dc
    miller 211 w/spool gun
    ahp 200 sx tig
    lotos ltp5000d
    of course duramax diesel

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
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    Southern California
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    623

    Re: Relay and Wiring Problems Older Belt Sander

    I can't help you with the specific part, sorry.

    A short down the line (motor windings) could cause the switch to burn out as well, just a little in case. Switches though, are the most common failed part on electric tools.

    Any "off the shelf" switch that's rated for your motor or above (h/p or amperage) will work - even a household type light switch. You should be able to find one that is similar or will work in the current configuration/location for very cheap also if you go this route.

    You see drill presses and the like with a household type switch and housing/box all day long in shops around here.

    If you post the pics of the switch, switch housing, and machine someone may be able to help you out more directly. Best of luck!

  3. #3
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    May 2010
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    ct.
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    Re: Relay and Wiring Problems Older Belt Sander

    Not sure if that relay is for a motor start winding or overcurrent
    protection, but I found “emb mod. 101” relays for sale on eBay
    etc. for~$10-$12. Maybe it’s the same part? Looks like it was
    used in Craftsman table saws, and other things.
    Miller a/c-d/c Thunderbolt XL
    Millermatic 180
    Purox O/A
    Smith Littletorch O/A
    Hobart Champion Elite

  4. #4
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    Re: Relay and Wiring Problems Older Belt Sander

    do i need to get the size of the motor, hp rating, to match the relay to the motor? i can take the sander completely apart if needed be to get that information. i would assume the relay is for a start winding since it starts under a load, the sanding belt. does a relay like this have to be sized to the motor?

    thanks for the replies!
    lincoln 125sp
    monkey wards 250 ac/dc
    miller 211 w/spool gun
    ahp 200 sx tig
    lotos ltp5000d
    of course duramax diesel

  5. #5
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    Apr 2014
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    MN/WI
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    Re: Relay and Wiring Problems Older Belt Sander

    Can you post pics of the belt sander info plate, motor, and relay ?
    Century buzzbox that I learned on 40+ years ago (was Dad's)
    Crappy Century 110volt mig 70 amp pigeon pooper.
    Lincoln Idealarc TIG-300

  6. #6
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    Re: Relay and Wiring Problems Older Belt Sander

    will try my best tomorrow. thanks
    lincoln 125sp
    monkey wards 250 ac/dc
    miller 211 w/spool gun
    ahp 200 sx tig
    lotos ltp5000d
    of course duramax diesel

  7. #7
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    northeast USA
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    Re: Relay and Wiring Problems Older Belt Sander

    bypass the switch and relay to make sure its not the sander motor, once you confirm its ok you can parts hunt for a relay and your not wasting your time..

  8. #8
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    Re: Relay and Wiring Problems Older Belt Sander

    im assuming this is a starter winding relay or is this relay for something else? this motor looks like a smaller version of a wash machine motor. there are three wires that feed the motor from the switch and relay. one wire from line, one from relay and one tied to the neutral if not mistaken.
    lincoln 125sp
    monkey wards 250 ac/dc
    miller 211 w/spool gun
    ahp 200 sx tig
    lotos ltp5000d
    of course duramax diesel

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    623

    Re: Relay and Wiring Problems Older Belt Sander

    If you can't find a replacement part centrifugal relays are simple mechanical switches, and in my experience they can usually be cleaned up and "saved" to work properly again - often it's just junk in the links or dirty contacts. replacement parts for the switch itself should be easy enough to make if you were so inclined as well.

    For those that don't know the starter relay is usually just some kind of linkage that swings out when the motor spins up to a certain speed and "switch off" the capacitor.
    Last edited by SlowBlues; 10-11-2019 at 12:04 AM.

  10. #10
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    Re: Relay and Wiring Problems Older Belt Sander

    i don't see an external capacitor. would it have to have one to make the run windings so to speak run out of phase? also having trouble getting picture of start relay off of another used phone, will try again today. might have to go to town for that.

    im curios, would running the start side windings of the relay be enough to act as delay for the run and start winds be out of sync to start motor?
    lincoln 125sp
    monkey wards 250 ac/dc
    miller 211 w/spool gun
    ahp 200 sx tig
    lotos ltp5000d
    of course duramax diesel

  11. #11
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    Re: Relay and Wiring Problems Older Belt Sander

    here is the picture of the sander relay
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    lincoln 125sp
    monkey wards 250 ac/dc
    miller 211 w/spool gun
    ahp 200 sx tig
    lotos ltp5000d
    of course duramax diesel

  12. #12
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    ct.
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    Re: Relay and Wiring Problems Older Belt Sander

    Looks to me like it’s a current sensing start relay.Not sure if trying to
    substitute is a good idea.Have you looked into buying one online?
    Probably cheaper and easier than trying to find one locally.
    Any idea why that one failed? I’d make a quick check of motor windings,
    sander bearings,etc. before buying anything.
    Miller a/c-d/c Thunderbolt XL
    Millermatic 180
    Purox O/A
    Smith Littletorch O/A
    Hobart Champion Elite

  13. #13
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    Re: Relay and Wiring Problems Older Belt Sander

    Quote Originally Posted by jpump5 View Post
    Looks to me like it’s a current sensing start relay.Not sure if trying to
    substitute is a good idea.Have you looked into buying one online?
    Probably cheaper and easier than trying to find one locally.
    Any idea why that one failed? I’d make a quick check of motor windings,
    sander bearings,etc. before buying anything.
    the motor is a 1/2 hp. i think that the wires were corroded on the terminals and on the safety switch the was a worn spot on one the wires.

    will this motor run without this relay or will one of the windings in the motor kick out? the same relay isn't available from sears and i have not been able to find that exact relay. i found a picture of vintage sears motors. in sander online manual it list replacement motors as "motor substitute category 1216, 1218, 1219, and 1226. looking these sears motors i came across these:

    http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/222/576.pdf

    the one listed in link as cat no. 1216 i think is the closest.

    do i need this exact relay, one close to it, or not at all? the relay isn't available anymore, and eBay's are only kinda similar. exactly what does this relay do?

    part of the original shows burn marks, but i think that there was e rub thru spot on the safety switch that caused the flash, smoke and not working.

    THANK YOU ALL FOR HELPING!!!!
    lincoln 125sp
    monkey wards 250 ac/dc
    miller 211 w/spool gun
    ahp 200 sx tig
    lotos ltp5000d
    of course duramax diesel

  14. #14
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    Re: Relay and Wiring Problems Older Belt Sander

    I’m thinking motor won’t start without it.
    Without start winding it’ll sit there and hum.
    If start winding is permanently connected, motor will
    run slow and growl, getting hot quick.
    Miller a/c-d/c Thunderbolt XL
    Millermatic 180
    Purox O/A
    Smith Littletorch O/A
    Hobart Champion Elite

  15. #15
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    Fairview Park.,Ohio
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    Re: Relay and Wiring Problems Older Belt Sander

    There is a guy on Ebay selling a Craftsman Bench Belt / Disc Sander Parts Model #113-226424 and
    is willing to sell the parts separate.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Craftsman-B...AAAOSw19dcErL1

    One of the parts listed is the 814589 relay for a $1.00. plus shipping.
    Might be worth your while to contact him .

    Tom

  16. #16
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    Re: Relay and Wiring Problems Older Belt Sander

    [QUOTE=ltvtom;8721045]There is a guy on Ebay selling a Craftsman Bench Belt / Disc Sander Parts Model #113-226424 and
    is willing to sell the parts separate.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Craftsman-B...AAAOSw19dcErL1

    One of the parts listed is the 814589 relay for a $1.00. plus shipping.



    itvtom: thank you so much for finding that sander on eBay. i just sent the seller an e-mal thru eBay and am waiting to hear back from him. i will keep you posted. thanks again!!!
    lincoln 125sp
    monkey wards 250 ac/dc
    miller 211 w/spool gun
    ahp 200 sx tig
    lotos ltp5000d
    of course duramax diesel

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
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    217

    Re: Relay and Wiring Problems Older Belt Sander

    It is simple to test the relay. It's function is to apply voltage to start windings as long as motor is drawing a certain number of watts. When watts drop below that amount,relay drop's out leaving motor on run windings. I would replace/repair damaged wire, clean connections then reconnect as it was. If motor run's slow or not at all,disconnect power immediately to prevent overheating. There is a contact inside that can be cleaned similar to filing ignition points if you can access them without busting it. If all else fails,look closly for mfgr name (Sears didn't make the switch) ,electrical info related to amps/volts/watts ect. If there's no info on relay,motor should have start load and run load printed on it. That's all you need to buy a substitute from Johnstone,Grainger or other suppliers. The substitute may not fit inside switch inclosure but can be wired outside using longer wires. If that doesn't turn something up,ask an electric motor shop if they will help you out. Not just a place that sells motors,one that rewinds and repairs motors.

  18. #18
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    Re: Relay and Wiring Problems Older Belt Sander

    Quote Originally Posted by Jax View Post
    It is simple to test the relay. It's function is to apply voltage to start windings as long as motor is drawing a certain number of watts. When watts drop below that amount,relay drop's out leaving motor on run windings. I would replace/repair damaged wire, clean connections then reconnect as it was. If motor run's slow or not at all,disconnect power immediately to prevent overheating. There is a contact inside that can be cleaned similar to filing ignition points if you can access them without busting it. If all else fails,look closly for mfgr name (Sears didn't make the switch) ,electrical info related to amps/volts/watts ect. If there's no info on relay,motor should have start load and run load printed on it. That's all you need to buy a substitute from Johnstone,Grainger or other suppliers. The substitute may not fit inside switch inclosure but can be wired outside using longer wires. If that doesn't turn something up,ask an electric motor shop if they will help you out. Not just a place that sells motors,one that rewinds and repairs motors.
    thanks Jax. the man that has the part on eBay is getting back to me to let me know if its still available. if not, in couple days will go your route. thanks, will keeps this up to date!!!
    lincoln 125sp
    monkey wards 250 ac/dc
    miller 211 w/spool gun
    ahp 200 sx tig
    lotos ltp5000d
    of course duramax diesel

  19. #19
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    Re: Relay and Wiring Problems Older Belt Sander

    i bought the relay and wire from the man this morning. yah, will be here in a few days. will keep posted!!!
    lincoln 125sp
    monkey wards 250 ac/dc
    miller 211 w/spool gun
    ahp 200 sx tig
    lotos ltp5000d
    of course duramax diesel

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    284

    Re: Relay and Wiring Problems Older Belt Sander

    Older GE washing machine motors had a similar start relay. They are position sensitive and will not work upside down and may not work if on an incline. A quick check was to see if they would shake like something is loose inside. Loose is good, no noise is bad. Then check to see if contacts are open, right side up and closed upside down, this too is correct. Hope that helps with checking this out. Lots of luck, a newer motor would probably have internal start switch and not need that relay if you try to change the motor out, and just a 1/4 horse more motor will make a difference in sanding if you are replacing the motor.

  21. #21
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    Re: Relay and Wiring Problems Older Belt Sander

    i didn't know how that relay worked. im glad you told me that mwshaw. might be next week before the purchased correct relay shows up in mail box. it also has correct jumper wire with it. i will chime back in when relay shows up a hopefully same day gets running.
    lincoln 125sp
    monkey wards 250 ac/dc
    miller 211 w/spool gun
    ahp 200 sx tig
    lotos ltp5000d
    of course duramax diesel

  22. #22
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    Re: Relay and Wiring Problems Older Belt Sander

    well everyone, the relay fixed the sander and now its up and running just as before. i want to thank everyone for the help.
    lincoln 125sp
    monkey wards 250 ac/dc
    miller 211 w/spool gun
    ahp 200 sx tig
    lotos ltp5000d
    of course duramax diesel

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