Letís talk about solenoids
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  1. #1
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    Letís talk about solenoids

    Yes let’s do. My 211 has a sticky solenoid that causes it to hang after welding. Sometimes it hangs 15%.... sometimes 75% open. I see it in the flowmeter. I’ve resorted to a quick smack above the solenoid after welding that has a 90% effectiveness. That other ten percent is the reason I can’t sleep at night. the obvious answer is call miller.....again.... for the second time in two weeks and spend another $65 (seems to be the price for everything) to have them send me a new solenoid. Being that I just did this for a fan, I’m feeling stubborn. Are there any solenoids in the US (seems to be the biggest hurdle) under $35 with a DC 24v trigger that anyone is aware of?

    Lincoln models maybe? Gives me somewhere else to look if anyone knows.

    If not I’ll get over it and call Miller, but still pissy about the fan last week.

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  2. #2
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    Re: Letís talk about solenoids

    You might get lucky and find one at a place like Surplus Center. Or, you could check the usual suspects like Grainger, MSC, McMaster, etc.

  3. #3
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    Re: Letís talk about solenoids

    Did you try miller4less.com?

  4. #4
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    Re: Letís talk about solenoids

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvin View Post
    Did you try miller4less.com?
    This


    Have you checked to see if 24VDC power is supplied consistently to the solenoid? It could be a faulty or intermittent supply of power to the solenoid.


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  5. #5
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    Re: Letís talk about solenoids

    Funny it seem when you put a part in a brand name bag the price jumps 2X or 3X.
    If you know the voltage you can Google parts to find a supplier, seems like many of the generic parts are from the same manufacture as the brand bagged ones, only better prices. Short story I bought a new SUV and wanted a trailer hitch for it got one from eBay (brand named one) for $180. with wiring harness, the dealer one was $400. no harness then add their installation charge.
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  6. #6
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    Re: Letís talk about solenoids

    We use hundreds of thousands of solenoids per year and many of them are 24vdc. If you post a picture of your old one
    I can make a recommendation.

  7. #7
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    Re: Letís talk about solenoids

    If i could get this silver part the nut screws on to come off i could replace the rubber o-ring, but it hasnít been willing to move and I donít want to warp it trying.

    Oh and thereís last weeks $65 down under it.

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  8. #8
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    Re: Letís talk about solenoids

    This was used as a flux core welder for a long time in a nasty environment and i think all migs should come with a plug that covers the port and flips up when you want to use gas. This solenoid has just likely got tons of crap embedded in the o-ring.
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  9. #9
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    Re: Letís talk about solenoids

    Quote Originally Posted by One1 View Post
    This was used as a flux core welder for a long time in a nasty environment and i think all migs should come with a plug that covers the port and flips up when you want to use gas. This solenoid has just likely got tons of crap embedded in the o-ring.
    The same, but a little different - I made a manifold for my argon, C25, Air in/out, Lincoln, AHP, etc..... Anyway, I have some lines open(quick connect fittings) all the time until I need to switch. I had to blow out crap(sawdust, etc) from the unused lines, quick Google search and now I have male and female caps for unused lines. Definite timesaver between crap not getting into solenoids, regulators, etc cleaning open fittings.... Whew. long winded reply!

  10. #10
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    Re: Letís talk about solenoids

    Thanks! It’ll be on gas from now on with me i think, but I’ll be taping that up if i have to do anything with flux.

    The silver part on there rotates but won’t pull off.

    Miller part number below, oddly doesnt match the 24v trigger specs of the machine.

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  11. #11
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    Re: Letís talk about solenoids

    Remove the tension on the feed rollers, remove the outlet hose from the solenoid, pour some water down the hose from the regulator and with about 60 psi behind a blow gun, pull the trigger to force the water thru. Do this several times to see if it will fix the problem. If it fixes it, then blow air thru it for a minute or so dry it out inside.
    Mike

    From what I read on the solenoid it's 120v AC. So the 24v being kicked around must be the trigger voltage that goes thru a relay? If so make up a jumper wire you can plug into the wall to see if the
    problem is in the solenoid, relay or trigger switch .
    Last edited by mla2ofus; 10-20-2019 at 01:08 PM.
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  12. #12
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    Re: Letís talk about solenoids

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    It works fine it just isn’t sealing up on closing. I was told it had a rubber o-ring but I’m seeing a metal to metal seal looking down there.

    Cleaning will help, but has to be open when cleaning and the cleaning solution will neutralize the solenoid and it’ll close. I really just want a different option on replacement.

    Edit: carb cleaner has slowed the leakdown. Still present.
    Last edited by One1; 10-20-2019 at 02:30 PM.
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  13. #13
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    Re: Letís talk about solenoids

    Re-read my post. If it still doesn't seem right then by all means order the new one.
    Mike
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  14. #14
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    Re: Letís talk about solenoids

    Re-read mine. Iím looking for a replacement. thatís why i made the thread.

    The miller one is 120v all the replacements that are nearly identical are 220v. If my relay would slide over the body of the solenoid, i could likely reuse the relay portion, but Iím sure it wouldnít fit. Thatís too easy.

    These are the closes replacements.

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  15. #15
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    Re: Letís talk about solenoids

    one1, it looks like a 24V DC coil driven electrical relay drives a 117VAC switched load to open the solenoid driven gas shut off valve, you're showing? (that would make this a solenoid valve in my experience) The body of this valve is what looks unique to me? The threaded ports aren't probably off the shelf.

    Not sure of the DP (sealing or holding pressure rating) of the valve in this link? https://www.amazon.com/HFS-Electric-...1605933&sr=8-3
    But this is the generic (low cost) equivalent. If you find a hose barb (one shown??) and a gas hose thread-to-1/4" pipe fitting (should be pretty common fitting a the LWS?) then this should work as a replacement?

    To discuss the type valve body you show- sometimes a few drops of lapping compound on the seat face and lapping as you would for engine block valves or PSV- same techniques- will reseat a scored metal to metal seat and rejuvenate a metal seat?

    Some of these types of valves have an O-ring that only fits around the tip of the stem? Some of these O-rings aren't buna-n or soft like that but- instead are a very hard plastic that has been heat installed on the stem to act as the seat seal.

    The spring pressure (return spring around stem) can be stretched to increase that 'return to seal' force, once the faces are lapped? This step can help with both sticking and increasing the holding force against 'lift' if the flow is 'under seat' not over seat?

    Also, sometimes the return spring can be corroded in the stem barrel and hang up. Removing spring, and cleaning the entire barrel and spring - or replacing those parts can also help some cases of sticky solenoid valves. Not saying you can get a rebuild kit for a Miller proprietary valve- just mentioning some steps regularly taken by someone rebuilding a solenoid valve.

    Just some remarks about solenoid valves in my experience. Used to rebuilt, rehab, replace, sell and repair a couple of lines of industrial solenoid valves and have found lots of conditions where these maintenance steps have helped me put a valve back in service.

    Cheers,
    Kevin Morin
    Kenai, AK

  16. #16
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    Re: Letís talk about solenoids

    One1, the coil of the solenoid valve is the potted, labeled portion you're calling a relay. The relay is external to these valves- the coil can usually be interchanged with lots of different voltages in one valve manufacturer's product line.

    Cheers,
    Kevin Morin
    Kenai, AK

  17. #17
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    Re: Letís talk about solenoids

    In my repair it world I would have tried to remove the shiny steel/ stainless steel stem from the brass body and check for o-rings sticking or in poor condition, if find a replacement o-ring lube with a little silicone faucet grease, reassemble & try it, this assumes it uses an o-ring seal, neoprene or or viton should be ok, you can also check parts stores for A/C o-rings, there are several o-ring "alloys" available, but I think argon co2 and helium are pretty inert. I offer this from years of working on Locomotives and some similar solenoids were used to operate the horns and bells on units that ran by remote control.
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  18. #18
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    Re: Letís talk about solenoids

    Kevin, thanks for the post!

    Cavemann i was able to spin it, but not remove it. It wasn’t threaded on, so I’m not sure if it’s on a pressure fitting, a bevel and pin, or what. Any force beyond what i applied would result in a destructive teardown. If i was able to get it apart to begin with I’d have came up with a solution as it would just need to be reseated, but unfortunately it isn’t budging and Miller isn’t telling how it’s adhered. All i can tell is that it only spins around 50% before it tightens back up. ......Either direction. So I’m thinking internal bevel on a clip. When i have a replacement, the world will know everything they need to about it. For right now, it still welds.
    Last edited by One1; 10-20-2019 at 07:33 PM.
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  19. #19
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    Re: Letís talk about solenoids

    Quote Originally Posted by One1 View Post
    Kevin, thanks for the post!

    Cavemann i was able to spin it, but not remove it. It wasn’t threaded on, so I’m not sure if it’s on a pressure fitting, a bevel and pin, or what. Any force beyond what i applied would result in a destructive teardown. If i was able to get it apart to begin with I’d have came up with a solution as it would just need to be reseated, but unfortunately it isn’t budging and Miller isn’t telling how it’s adhered. All i can tell is that it only spins around 50% before it tightens back up. ......Either direction. So I’m thinking internal bevel on a clip. When i have a replacement, the world will know everything they need to about it. For right now, it still welds.
    Did you try to pull on it or use air pressure at either extreme of rotation,I mean someone put it together, it should come apart somehow. if you use air be sure to aim the top piece in a safe direction and have a rag or something soft to catch it, or replace it & have it to play with to get it apart, it sounds like the coil is good & the valve is leaking.
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  20. #20
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    Re: Letís talk about solenoids

    The silver part screws out and the the seal is a flat piece of rubber glued in the plunger.
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  21. #21
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    Re: Letís talk about solenoids

    Not the same one but I’ll try again soon. Thank you!
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  22. #22
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    Re: Letís talk about solenoids

    I'm all for repairing things but look at all the time you have wasted!
    Here's your part and it looks like a good price to me and I'm a real cheapskate!

    https://www.amazon.com/Miller-232516.../dp/B004R852P4

  23. #23
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    Re: Letís talk about solenoids

    only $20 higher? Might as well make it an even 100.
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  24. #24
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    Re: Letís talk about solenoids

    Does the brass tube at the base turn or is it soldered/brazed to the valve? It looks like the silver to brass joint is a type of crimp that can't be removed from without destroying it. I would double check the schematic and the voltage operating the coil. You might find another solenoid that may work on Automation Direct. You would probably need adapters but it might be worth a look.
    https://www.automationdirect.com/adc...pos.,_pipeline

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