[Black Wolf]

Now on to the first pic. The key thing here is the placement of the tail block in relation to the pole hinges. The pole hinges really need to be in front of the tail block. First off it's needed to allow lifting the poles with the winch as in second pic. Secondly if the tail block is to far forward and you lift a load with the poles near straight up you will pull the poles over onto your headache rack. If you look closely at the first pic you can see the original placement of the pole hinges by the original builder. He put them on the back corners of the bed. This didn't work well.


I like the pin through the pole setup the best since it's the least likely to come apart if a side load happens.

With all respect to you Irish, I will have to disagree with your statements, and your logic. I will explain my self as best I can.

1st off, the pole hinges do not "have to be in front of the tail block" - Never seen a set of poles like that - Never built a set of poles like that. Never ran a set of poles like that. Sorry.

2nd - That has squat to do with raising the poles into the working position. As long as the line coming off your winch drum is below the line coming off the pole cap and going over your roll, the poles are going to raise up - Period. The higher your poles are from horizontal, the easier they will raise up.

3rd - Gin Poles were NEVER designed to work at absolute Vertical - And I have NEVER seen, or used a set of poles in the air that wasn't secured in the working position with tie-back chains. When the pole cap is laid back just behind the roll, and tied back with 1/2" System 70 chains, you can damn near push with them. To operate poles with a load at Vertical, or without tie-back chains is sheer recklessness.

The last point - Not to knock a man who is doing the best he can with what he has, but that is NOT the "Best set up for a set of poles - A manufactured Pole Cap is - The hold back cables, chains, or winch line attach to the Pole Cap. Agreed poles are not really designed for side loading - But a properly buile pole cap that slides into the poles 12" or so, then pins into the poles, will not come out - Even if you drop the poles.

It is kind of hard to see from the photos but I will explain myself:

First Photo: The Snatch Block/Tail Block/Sheave (Whatever you want to call it) attaches to a steel bracket called the "Deadman" that drops below the deck surface when not in use. As you can see from the photo - The Pin holding the Snatch Block to the Deadman is in-line with the hinges on gin poles.

Second Photo: When the poles are in the air, and the winch line is tight, the Deadman leans towards the winch, and the Snatch Block and winch line are on the winch side of the gin poles - The opposite to what you described.

Please note as well the tabs on the poles, and the tie-back chains that hold them in the working position.

 

[Black Wolf]

Pole Cap Pics

First pic - Pole cap secured to the side of the bed in behind the steps.

Second pic - Stairs removed, and the pole cap can clearly be seen below Dameon (worker on the deck)

 

[Black Wolf]

Gin Poles in the air, and pole cap pinned into poles.

Note: This set of poles was Engineered to use 1-1/8" Tie back cables, the Braden 125 Main Winch is supposed to be the "Load Line" and the Tulsa Rufnek 60 is supposed to be through the apron, and used to hold the BOP's from swinging.

In these photos, the Tie-back cables aren't being used, the Braden 125 is holding the poles, and the Rufnek 30 is the load line. These are "Demo" Photos just showing the poles in the air.

Again Irish, I intend NO Disrespect, and I understand a man making do with what he has, but sometimes, there IS a better way.

 

[Black Wolf]

I do not intend that the OP build an absolute monstrosity like I have for use on a pick-up - that would be foolish... Instead, I suggest that he marry the two ideas together - Fab up a pole cap that slides into the poles, has a provision to attach the tie-back cables, AND has a provision to attach a snatch block/pulley/sheave very similiar to the one you have shown.

I have seen several pick-up poles in years past with the set-up I just described above, but unfortunately, I do not have pictures.

I have Google SketchUp as well - I can draft up a model of what I am describing if it will help.

Hope that helps, and doesn't confuse or offend anyone.

 

[saltbranch]

Black Wolf, ya'll fab your own TB blocks?? You definetly play with some big equipment. Most of the 1 tons around here I have seen are using an "A" that drops into the poles at top and are pinned, they hag a block off the crossbar in the "A". Definetly agree on chains to secure poles.

MrLeadman, when you get to point of putting the rigging together, shoot me a PM with what you are looking for. I work for a wire rope rigging shop and we sell pretty much everything you will need short of the winch. We carry the McKissick and Gunnebo Johnson Blocks, wire rope and all the fittings needed from 1/4" upto 3-1/2"...I should be able to get you some good pricing on it.

 

[Bob-1]

These are close ups of my gin poles. I made this set up about 22 years ago. I copied parts of several different sets I had seen and talked to the owners to see what would be best. The biggest was almost as big as what Black Wolf shows and the smallest was on a 1 ton that was an oil field weldors truck.

Although I have two connection points to hold the poles up, you can adjust both sides at the same time from the drivers side. There is a chain hook welded to the head ache rack that a chain slips in. The chain is hooked to a piece of winch line that goes to a snatch block at the head and back down to the other side of the head ache rack. The ring you see welded to the head ache rack is used when you bring your running line hook between the poles and hook it to the ring to hold the poles up with the winch while you make adjustments.

The second picture shows the head while the poles are down on the rack. You can see the hold back piece of winch line running through the home made snatch block. What I like with this head is I can winch up to the very hieght of the poles unlike when you have the hanging snatch block that your running line goes through. The poles are 2 1/2"x3/16" square tube with 2"x1/4" square inside. I can extend them to half way and all the way minus a foot. They are then 19' long anf there is 3'3" from the ground to the pivot point of the swivel pins at the base so I have almost 22' of lift.

 

[Black Wolf]

Black Wolf, ya'll fab your own TB blocks?? You definetly play with some big equipment. Most of the 1 tons around here I have seen are using an "A" that drops into the poles at top and are pinned, they hag a block off the crossbar in the "A". Definetly agree on chains to secure poles.

Yessir -Some of the components were cut out by a sub shop, but tack up and weld out was done by myself and 2 other Welders. Started out with 4 welders total, but one couldn't work to my standards, so he left.

I use a lot of Crosby and McKissick brand components whenever possible. Always loved using "Blue Strand" Wire Rope. Never really liked the White Strand, or Green Strand Import Stuff - Didn't train as nice, or last as long - As least it seemed like that to me.

Great description on the "A"... That is what I am picturing in my mind, just didn't describe it properly - Thanks.

Since you are a Wire and Rope Guy - Here's a shot from last year - It's a little Baby 10 Ton on a Garbage Bin Truck, but you should appreciate the nice spooling,

Have a Good Night.

 

[Black Wolf]

Very Nice Bob... Thanks for the pics and explanation.

A couple more pics of pole caps off the Commanders - Same machine, just before and after mods to remove the 2nd winch and install a roller fairlead.

 

[Bob-1]

Although they don't look it now the base pieces of the poles are stainless. They were given to me by a scrapper and I have no idea what their intended purpose was. The bolt is 1", probably over kill but that was the size of the hole in the stainless pieces.

In the next picture you can see I made it where I can take out the bottom bolt and the holder piece will set down below bed height to be able to carry bigger stuff on the bed.

 

[Bob-1]

I used it just this evening to set an old metal cistern on a cistern stand. It is supposed to have the water coming out of a pipe and falling into the pool so it's non functional as a cistern. I set the wind mill for this guy last year. When I set the wind mill I had to extend the poles out all the way. To do this I pulled the winch line between the poles, hook to the eye on the rack and let the poles all the way to the bed. Back up to a tree and tie the head to the tree and drive forward until I can put the pins in the poles. I can pull them out by hand but the tree method is easier, well, I mean, if you have a tree.

The stand for the cistern was short enough that I didn't have to do that but I did have to winch up all the way to the top of the head. Total time spent was about 15 minutes, no welding but a quick $50.

 

[Bob-1]

I might also mention that when loading stuff on a trailer with an "A" frame, you can back your rig up to the object and jack knife the rig where the poles are over the object. You can then winch it up, get in the truck, pull forward until the trailer in straight behind and then let it down into the front of the trailer. I've done this many times, works like a champ and saves taking the trailer off.

I don't know about the bigger trucks but for my size, I think you should have the pivots for the bottom of the poles on the bed between the axle and the back spring hangers and right over the frame. You definitely need additional framing under the bed as well. There is massive pressure there on a very small area. The ones that have them all the way to the rear can't pick up as much as it pulls the back of the truck down too much.

Also with the pivots back from the edge you can put tie downs on the poles at the length that will let the poles set straight up with out falling onto the head ache rack. When you need to load something onto the back of the truck there will be room there with the poles back away from the back edge of the bed. Also you can put a clamp onto the winch line at a spot that will stop at the gin pole head when the object is just about bed height. Once the line clamp hits the head the poles will start forward, that is until they are stopped by the tie downs. When it stops you let out the winch line until the object is on the bed. One of the people I copied part of my rig from was loading an engine out of a dozer onto his bed when I drove up. I was truly impressed at the time but have used the same technique many time since.

 

[Black Wolf]

I don't discount that you and many others have worked out some really neat tricks that you can do with the poles on a pick-up. I can picture what you are describing. For obvious reasons, those sort of things are just NOT a good idea on the iron I used to run.

Of course, I never said I didn't lay the poles down on the headache rack, and then winch a load onto the poles on short location moves.

Shhh... Don't tell. Ok?

 

[Black Wolf]

I don't know about the bigger trucks but for my size, I think you should have the pivots for the bottom of the poles on the bed between the axle and the back spring hangers and right over the frame.

I believe that is a very accurate suggestion. I don't have any close-up shots to support that, but in this longer shot, you can see that the pole hinge is "above" the rear axle, and the force of the load is transferred into the suspension.

 

[irish fixit]

With all respect to you Irish, I will have to disagree with your statements, and your logic. I will explain my self as best I can.

I'm afraid I'll have to argue a little here. I'm not bashing you but just trying to get my point across since this can definitely be safety related. You do bring up some good points however you're making some sweeping statements that have some possible problems.

1st off, the pole hinges do not "have to be in front of the tail block" - Never seen a set of poles like that - Never built a set of poles like that. Never ran a set of poles like that. Sorry.

2nd - That has squat to do with raising the poles into the working position. As long as the line coming off your winch drum is below the line coming off the pole cap and going over your roll, the poles are going to raise up - Period. The higher your poles are from horizontal, the easier they will raise up.

Ok lets start with these. No the block doesn't have to be behind the poles. However it does need to have the cable fairly close to the poles. I'm attaching some drawings to try and explain my points. In the first drawing I'm showing what I'm talking about as for the tail block not raising the poles. If the distance of point A is smaller than point B then the poles will not raise but rather be pulled down into the headache rack. In the second drawing I've drawn it so that the tail block (or rather the shiv of the tail block) is behind the poles but there's a good bit of distance from the end of the bed to the pivot point of the poles. In this case the poles will raise with the winch line. Now if the tail block was further back then it would raise them with less stress on everything and be more controllable when doing it. This is all just basic physics and is calculated using vectors. I could set down and calculate them but I hope you can see my point without that.

3rd - Gin Poles were NEVER designed to work at absolute Vertical - And I have NEVER seen, or used a set of poles in the air that wasn't secured in the working position with tie-back chains. When the pole cap is laid back just behind the roll, and tied back with 1/2" System 70 chains, you can damn near push with them. To operate poles with a load at Vertical, or without tie-back chains is sheer recklessness.

Here I agree with never operate them vertical. However if you go back and reread what I wrote you'll find the word "near" there. I consider the poles in your pics to be near vertical. But not to be nit picky here let me show you the point I was trying to make in another drawing. In all cases the distance from point B must be more than either A or C. If it's not then the poles will come crashing back to towards the cab. In the case of C you can see that it's longer so unless the poles are tied down like you describe then the poles will come back. On the point of chaining the poles like that I have to say that I've rarely seen that setup around here. In fact I'm trying to remember a single truck big or little that has that setup. I think I've seen it a couple of times but I just can't remember where. At any rate it would be foolish to rely on the chains to keep the poles in place in the case of C above.

The last point - Not to knock a man who is doing the best he can with what he has, but that is NOT the "Best set up for a set of poles - A manufactured Pole Cap is - The hold back cables, chains, or winch line attach to the Pole Cap. Agreed poles are not really designed for side loading - But a properly buile pole cap that slides into the poles 12" or so, then pins into the poles, will not come out - Even if you drop the poles.

I agree that is the best setup. But few people have the equipment to build a block from scratch. The other thing is that style cap limits you to one pole length do to the change in angle if they are longer or shorter. Thus you have have a different cap for each pole. Now if you have a set of telescoping poles then you'll have to carry a bunch of them. If done properly the pin setup is capable of handling the difference.

Another poster mentioned the A style caps. I have one of those and even had a picture of it but because I'm not so fond of it I didn't make another post to get it in. Most of them I see around here are just slipped into the end of the poles without pins holding them. Thus the reason I don't like them.

It is kind of hard to see from the photos but I will explain myself:

First Photo: The Snatch Block/Tail Block/Sheave (Whatever you want to call it) attaches to a steel bracket called the "Deadman" that drops below the deck surface when not in use. As you can see from the photo - The Pin holding the Snatch Block to the Deadman is in-line with the hinges on gin poles.

Second Photo: When the poles are in the air, and the winch line is tight, the Deadman leans towards the winch, and the Snatch Block and winch line are on the winch side of the gin poles - The opposite to what you described.

Please note as well the tabs on the poles, and the tie-back chains that hold them in the working position.

I see your points but hopefully this post will let you see mine. Another thing that makes a difference in your setup is the fact that the poles are hinged below the deck level. This helps but was not practical in my setup.

 

[Black Wolf]

I REALLY wish you would have posted up your drawings and explanations in 3 seperate posts instead of that chopped up garbled up mess that is a nightmare to follow. I will do my best to sort through it.

In my opinion, you as well made some "sweeping statements that have some possible problems." ie the pole hinges in front of the tail block.

From a cursory glance, I believe you and I are more or less on the same page, just explained it differently.


Gimme a few minutes please to sort through your post.

 

[irish fixit]

I REALLY wish you would have posted up your drawings and explanations in 3 seperate posts instead of that chopped up garbled up mess that is a nightmare to follow. I will do my best to sort through it.

If I could manage to make the pics come up where I want them it wouldn't be so bad. I've not figured out how to do that without hosting them somewhere else.

In my opinion, you as well made some "sweeping statements that have some possible problems." ie the pole hinges in front of the tail block.

From a cursory glance, I believe you and I are more or less on the same page, just explained it differently.


Gimme a few minutes please to sort through your post.

The pole hinge doesn't have to be in front of the block but it's a whole lot easier to explain it that way rather than go through what I did to try and get my point across.

I do believe we are on the same page as well in many ways. It just the little details we're differing about.

 

[Black Wolf]

No the block doesn't have to be behind the poles. However it does need to have the cable fairly close to the poles.

Agreed - That was the point I was trying to illustrate when I responded to your initial post. My pictures and explanations that followed clearly outline that fact.


I'm attaching some drawings to try and explain my points. In the first drawing I'm showing what I'm talking about as for the tail block not raising the poles. If the distance of point A is smaller than point B then the poles will not raise but rather be pulled down into the headache rack.

As long as the line coming off your winch drum is below the line coming off the pole cap and going over your roll, the poles are going to raise up - Period. The higher your poles are from horizontal, the easier they will raise up.

In the second drawing I've drawn it so that the tail block (or rather the shiv of the tail block) is behind the poles but there's a good bit of distance from the end of the bed to the pivot point of the poles.

No, you didn't - In all diagrams, the shiv is on the winch side of the gin poles EXACTLY where I said it should be.

Second Photo: When the poles are in the air, and the winch line is tight, the Deadman leans towards the winch, and the Snatch Block and winch line are on the winch side of the gin poles - The opposite to what you described.

Here I agree with never operate them vertical. However if you go back and reread what I wrote you'll find the word "near" there. I consider the poles in your pics to be near vertical.

<Snip>

On the point of chaining the poles like that I have to say that I've rarely seen that setup around here. In fact I'm trying to remember a single truck big or little that has that setup. I think I've seen it a couple of times but I just can't remember where. At any rate it would be foolish to rely on the chains to keep the poles in place in the case of C above.

I guess we are at a difference of opinions, and we will have to agree to disagree - I don't operate a set-up like you do on a 1 ton lifting motors etc, and you don't move Drilling Rigs and move Big Iron like I USED to. If I laid the poles back as far as you show, then Yes, Chaining them would be redundant, but in order to lift WEIGHT - Not "Pounds" ... TONS... You need to have that load as close to the back of the truck, and the suspension as possible. In THAT case, Chaining the poles is a MUST. The tabs and chains I have shown are more than adequate. No, I'm not going to do the math for you either. The pole truck I posted pictures of is rated to lift 79.8 TONS exactly where the pole are. I will let my work, and it's documentation speak for itself.

I agree that is the best setup. But few people have the equipment to build a block from scratch. The other thing is that style cap limits you to one pole length do to the change in angle if they are longer or shorter. Thus you have have a different cap for each pole. Now if you have a set of telescoping poles then you'll have to carry a bunch of them. If done properly the pin setup is capable of handling the difference.

I KNOW that you are a "Smart Cookie" (<-- Meant as complimentary) and are very resourceful - Surely you could have sorted out how to make swivels (attaching the pipes to the pole cap) to accomodate the varying angles to suit your needs. It is VERY simple to do.

I see your points but hopefully this post will let you see mine. Another thing that makes a difference in your setup is the fact that the poles are hinged below the deck level. This helps but was not practical in my setup.

We don't build pole trucks up here where the poles do not "diappear" below the deck surface - It wrecks the hauling or work surface. Even the 1 Ton poles come apart and bury in the deck.

And I DO see the points you wished to make. Aside from some minor issues, we are more or less in agreement. I would submit that BOTH of us are striving to provide what we believe to be accurate and SAFE information so that readers can construct a good working set of poles that operate well.

On the minor points of contention, I will suggest again that we Repectfully Agree to Disagree.

I hope I explained myself sufficiently while not being too offensive.... I'm working on that.

 

[irish fixit]

We don't build pole trucks up here where the poles do not "diappear" below the deck surface - It wrecks the hauling or work surface. Even the 1 Ton poles come apart and bury in the deck.

And I DO see the points you wished to make. Aside from some minor issues, we are more or less in agreement. I would submit that BOTH of us are striving to provide what we believe to be accurate and SAFE information so that readers can construct a good working set of poles that operate well.

On the minor points of contention, I will suggest again that we Repectfully Agree to Disagree.

I hope I explained myself sufficiently while not being too offensive.... I'm working on that.

I can't say that I've seen any purpose made pole trucks without the recessed poles either. I would of loved to of done that on mine but it just wasn't practical.

I agree that we're striving for the same thing and for the most part agree on everything. My original post wasn't as clear on some areas as I could of made it. It was just the easiest way for me to explain some things that I felt where fairly critical to proper operation of the poles.

There's always more than one way to skin a cat.

 

[Black Wolf]

Very good then Sir.

Let me wish you a very Happy and Enjoyable 4th of July.

 

[Old Doug]

Can some one tell me if tie back chains will hold the poles back or if you have to have a tail block?