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Pulled a permit to run 220v 40a circuit on 8-3 romex for an ALPHATIG 201XD

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vdotmatrix

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Discussion starter · #1 · (Edited)
On the surface, this looks like a straightforward installation to me. Pull some 8-3 wire. add a breaker and then wire the outlet that matches the power cable on my ALPHATIG 201XD welder, which is tripping the breaker on 110v, 20A.
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Hmmm. The pictures of either two outlets only have 3 lugs and no ground. I looked at our 60A dryer outlet and it has #6 cable going into the stand-alone outlet mounted to the wall on a piece of wood. 60-year-old house.

I am the home owner and I pulled the permit but now that I look at the different outlets wiring schemes something isnt connecting. Are these grounded differently? I see no green grounding lug.....would I run 8-2? ( NO.you need red and black hot, and a neutral but what about the bare ground in 8-3). I want to get everything laid out before I call for the first inspection in which I plan to just go over what I plan to do in the panel, how and where I will run the Romex, and how I will wire this suddenly problematic outlet. Any Ideas?
 
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#2 ·
These receptacles do not use a neutral. If you run 8/3 you'll have to cap the neutral/white. The plug is marked where the ground wire goes.

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.
 
Discussion starter · #3 · (Edited)
So I should really just buy 8-2, mark the neutral as black ( HOT) and use the ground as I would normally? That really removes the panic from my planning and back into the realm of straightforward project install. Is it desirable to use a receptacle wired with a neutral or just not necessary for 220v? THANK YOU
hobbywelder27 said:
These receptacles do not use a neutral. If you run 8/3 you'll have to cap the neutral/white. The plug is marked where the ground wire goes.

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.
Click to expand...
 
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Discussion starter · #7 ·
Thanks everyone. These outlets for 240v are usually 2-wire (hot) plus the bare ground wire; white wire marked black to make it hot. So this will be a very straight forward install.

I will need to combine (2)-20a circuits on a tandem breaker to freeup one more slot for my (2)-pole 40amp breaker for the welder.

Thanks for your help��
 
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#9 · (Edited)
If you have 8/3 I would drop the #10 bare ground and phase tape out the #8 white completely green and use it for your ground.

Prefer the nice #8 stranded instead of the #10 bare ground. Before I did that though I would look and see if there is a place in ground/(neutral, probabaly the same ) bar to land a #8. If there was a place #10 would fit and not the #8 maybe I would stick with the solid but you can always bolt a small lug easily and cheaply to accept #8 and get it on ground bar or the can itself.

That is all the 6-50 receptacle needs is the two hots off breaker and the ground. Welders don't need neutral as they are not 120/240 just straight 240.

You panel most likely has grounds and neutrals all in the same bar so at panel essentially the same at that point but irrelevant to your install and another topic.
Basically the neutrals and grounds stay together until your first means of disconnect.

When you start moving 120 loads around you need to be careful as some may be multiwire branch circuits where two share a neutral. Just know that if any share neutrals the two sharing MUST be place on different phases.
 
#12 ·
Not sure on all areas but here in Los Angeles it is technically required but as mentioned , for a single circuit permits are not pulled. Heck, permits for most things inside I doubt permits are pulled :0
 
#13 ·
Yes, it would add astronomical to the cost. I forget, we got some guys from there as to what kind of paper sparkies carry. Michigan was just catching on when I was a kid, if a guy worked at it a little could pass the test he could be one. Now they wanna see pay stubs 3etc and its quite a deal. I am pretty good at tests but I doubt I could pass one.
 
#14 ·
Sberry said:
Yes, it would add astronomical to the cost. I forget, we got some guys from there as to what kind of paper sparkies carry. Michigan was just catching on when I was a kid, if a guy worked at it a little could pass the test he could be one. Now they wanna see pay stubs 3etc and its quite a deal. I am pretty good at tests but I doubt I could pass one.
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Test here is open book, if you are familiar with a code book you can pass the test with ease in a fraction of the time allowed. Pass the business exam, the code exam and prove the minimum hours in the trade and you have a license forever as long as you pay your $900 every two years, keep your bonds and insurance current and don't do anything stupid.
 
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#15 · (Edited)
For a 50 amp outlet to pass a inspection it should actually have #6's and be on a 50 amp breaker. Could be protected even higher if say a larger welder needed more amperage.
I forgot you were getting inspection. Technically what I said earlier about phasing the white to green just so you had a full size ground may not be legal as some places they don't want you phasing a wire from white to green on smaller size stuff especially. Use the solid #10 so you don't have a issue. Cap the #8 neutral at both ends.
 
Discussion starter · #16 · (Edited)
MN1965 said:
I ran 6 on a 50 for mine. Dang that stuff is hard to work with!

Just curious. Were you required to get a permit to do the work yourself? I think most guys just put in the outlet and move on with life.
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I am not an electrician. When it comes to my home, family and property I want to make sure any work I do, whether it electrical, building, or plumbing work, that otherwise needs to be inspected—gets inspected so it is up to NEC code, at least. I know , i know, save it...... many codes were written in blood, because people like me could have thought they knew what they were doing and ended in tragedy, so it makes sense, to me at any rate, to pull a permit.

I can pay someone to do the work, and sometimes I do when it is outside my knowledge base, but when I do the work, I know what has been done and learn something in the process.

Alphatig told me the optimum power scenario is 8-awg and a 40amp 2-pole breaker. So I took that recommendation and ran with it.

Many people will just do the work and get away with it just to save a buck. Cool!

Many of my friends do a lot of work themselves and i have seen some pretty crazy **** because they had a notion of what they thought was the right way to wire something and so on. It is still a good idea to share our expertise here and help everyone along.

I learned something about wiring a 240v circuit and how it differs from 120v.

The permit 16 years ago cost me $52, here in Alexandria, Yesterday, i paid $112. Materials will cost under $100. My initial electrical survey inspection is tomorrow. The other reason I pull permits is I am paying for an expert in the particular trade to examine my work/plan and give me expert advice, at least as many times as i need in the next 6 months. To me it takes the guesswork out of this work and it is fun! Writing a plan, drawing risers...yawn....

Basic 120v residential circuits did not require a permit for certain upgrades but because it was something other than basic residential it fell in the “other” category and needed a permit.

Thanks everyone!
 
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#17 · (Edited)
When a reasonable inspector sees exactly(primary load specs) what your running and it is dedicated and sized for it I believe the #8's and 40 amp may suit him and he will sign off on it. If done properly otherwise the circuit as described is safe for the load it is meant to serve.

If using a separate metal box with mud rind or industrial cover be sure to ground both the box and the outlet.
 
Discussion starter · #18 ·
danielplace said:
For a 50 amp outlet to pass a inspection it should actually have #6's and be on a 50 amp breaker. Could be protected even higher if say a larger welder needed more amperage.
I forgot you were getting inspection. Technically what I said earlier about phasing the white to green just so you had a full size ground may not be legal as some places they don't want you phasing a wire from white to green on smaller size stuff especially. Use the solid #10 so you don't have a issue. Cap the #8 neutral at both ends.
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thanks man...For some reason i thought i really needed to run 8-3. All that is required is 8-2 and the outlet i pictured will just be just dandy. BTW, alphatig said that on that 12-awg 20a circuit, I shouldn't weld higher than about 85a. I tried that tonight and sure enough it didn't trip the breaker but didn’t give me a generous weld puddle either...what fun was that? I guess this would warrant a smaller electrode and thinner material to weld.
 
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Discussion starter · #19 ·
danielplace said:
When a reasonable inspector sees exactly what your running and it is dedicated and sized for it I believe the #8's and 40 amp may suit him and he will just sign off on it. If done properly otherwise the circuit as described is safe for the load it is meant to serve.
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My criticism of AlphaTig is for the 201xd, i could not find the power requirements readily on their website. The inspector may want to see some specs which i dont have right now for him to make a determination, but i am certain he knows more about it than I ever will.. For a 200a welder, I hope 8awg 40a will be enough. I will know soon enough.
 
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#20 · (Edited)
vdotmatrix said:
My criticism of AlphaTig is for the 201xd, i could not find the power requirements readily on their website. The inspector may want to see some specs which i dont have right now for him to make a determination, but i am certain he knows more about it than I ever will.. For a 200a welder, I hope 8awg 40a will be enough. I will know soon enough.
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Oh it's enough. That is for sure.
My Dynasty 280 only pulls like 33 maxed out on 240 single phase.

It should have a nameplate possibly even stating the input current.

Here is the same machine basically as far as amp draw going to be identical.

Show this to your inspector if wondering what it uses.
Requirements, 28 amps
The 200X same power usage.
Image


It is the same only 210XD has more adjustability to certain parameters.

What is New

Generally, AHP’s Alphatig’s 200X did a pretty fine job, so the 201XD has a high bar to reach. The earlier version of this remarkable arc welder (the Alphatig 200x) came equipped with bleeding-edge inverter technology combined with PMW and IGBT, and it worked great on both metal and aluminum materials. It was portable and affordable, and it had a reputation for offering the best performance out of all the machines in its price range.
The newer version features improvements concerning selectable AC frequency and balance settings, enhanced tungsten life, and improved properties of the arc cone as well as the etching width. What’s more, you can operate this unit remotely via the 2T/4T sequencer switch and swap between programmable features: post-flow control, start & end cycle, and more.
 
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