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Re: Advice Please

I've made a living working for hundreds of bosses since 1969. I've had a few dozen paper contracts. All the others have been verbal. There have been a few times I didn't get paid. Usually it's because the customer can't pay. When someone insists on a written contract I become very suspicious. These are people either wanting something for nothing, or terrified I can't be trusted. In either case I don't want to work for this customer. Take the time to learn what the customer wants. Discuss the obstacles of doing it their way. In my work, often the customer's wants violate safety laws. These issues must be addressed. Just yesterday, an industrial customer insisted that burying conduit very shallow across a log yard was the best for him. He knew the rules. Not following rules had made him rich. I could say convincing him to bury it deep wasted two hours. I see it as saving me hours of misery repairing it again in the worst winter weather.

There are customers who view transactions as conflict, they have to win. Try to identify these customers before you do business. For them you are so busy you can't do their work. The majority want to pay a low price for good work. Make them understand that while you aren't the cheapest, you are the best value. I too get frustrated with how much time I lose communicating with my customer. I force myself to understand that part of my job is educating my customer.

Your customer wants value. They pay for expertise they don't have. Give enough information that they can tell quality from crap. You will reap the rewards.

My best customer informed me of a decision he made involving very large sums of his money. I was troubled. I went to him, apologized for sticking my nose into his business, but stated my concerns. A week later I learned my time had been wasted, he was going through with it. Two weeks later he reconsidered, at considerable expense, he backed out of what I believe was a big mistake. Later he approached me and said; "I'm not real smart, so I surround myself with people who are. I want to thank you for stopping me from making a big mistake." In my world you don't get many atta boys. On the rare occasion, they feel good.

Re: Advice Please

I'm from kansas and have often relied on a handshake. It's never bitten me in the ***. People I don't know I write up a formal document and have them sign before I do any work. But as said before I'll show examples before they sign on the line. Terms are always different based on the job. Some people have more $ and prefer to pay up front so all they gotta do is wait for it or pick it up. I'm speaking about everything from fab work to construction and carpentry

It's simple. get a mud motor. shoot ducks in the face.

Re: Advice Please

Wornout, you obviously didn't make a living as a salesman, as every business owner needs to be. As a long-time salesman, I learned to love almost every one of my azz-hole customers. They are like wayward children that you didn't drown back when you could get away with it. You are stuck with them. Make hay.

Re: Advice Please

Friend, I myself would drop the job without another word to him and move on to next. Those materials were leftovers anyway and still very useable.

When he calls asking WTF? Tell him you don't have the time to screw around with his small job and confusion. Suggest he find someone else.

Next job get it on paper with signature and material costs up front....Move on

Re: Advice Please

Originally Posted by derekpfeiffer

This is why I insist on customers always stopping by my shop before I build a project for them! ...

Same here. And I show them my gun, machete and hammer collections. Along with shrunken heads of former or would-be customers.

Re: Advice Please

Originally Posted by Rockdrill

A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on...


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Niether is a writen one. It is only as good as the money behind it to in force it. I do all my work by verbal agreement. My customers know they only have on chance to mess with me. It is part of the cost of doing business . On large jobs I do bill for material as soon as it is ordered. My labor is not charged until the customer is satisfied with the outcome. I work by the hour and they know changes will cost them money. All I do is buisiness to business. With a walk in customer I want to be paid before my time is invested. Most do not come back after I quote a price. They all think I should work for $10 hr. Or they just have no Idea how expensive it is to do welding. I have found life to be easier to just work buisiness to business.

Re: Advice Please

A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on...


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Re: Advice Please

Originally Posted by BD1

Now tell the guy that the price you quoted was for ROUND PIPE and NOT SQUARE TUBE, a price increase is coming.

LMAO!!!

Re: Advice Please

As everyone else said, get it in writing. And if they want to change something, do a change order for the original design. Glad it all worked out.

Re: Advice Please

Now tell the guy that the price you quoted was for ROUND PIPE and NOT SQUARE TUBE, a price increase is coming.

Re: Advice Please

make sure you get down payment for materials on this next batch before he does the same thing again.

Re: Advice Please

The man came through and decided to take them after I explained that it was stronger. In fact he ordered more! I appreciate the advice fellas!

Re: Advice Please

If you want him as a customer, he needs to be happy with your work. It doesn't sound like he understood that you were trying to save him money by using materials that you had on hand. If he paid for the materials up front, maybe he would have.

Re: Advice Please

Where I live, a verbal contract is a legal binding contract. Problem is; it comes down to he said she said. Without documentation your outa luck. It aint worth it. Walk away.

Re: Advice Please

Originally Posted by yakdung

I would send an email as a follow up so you would have a hard record.

Kansas + Farmer + Email =

Re: Advice Please

Sketch and a deposit. Sometimes I never see customer. We build and ship.

Good luck with this guy. Perhaps he is just yanking your chain.

Re: Advice Please

This is why I insist on customers always stopping by my shop before I build a project for them! We all know what we're talking about because we talk the language all the time! Not so with the average person. I like to have scraps so I can show them what I'm going to use, and sketch things out on my bench with soapstone so there's no confusion. If I look at them and I see the deer in the headlights look I know I need to "dumb it down" another notch or two.

But like already stated try to sell the idea to him by the fact it's 40% stronger than round and typically cheaper to work with to boot...

Best of luck!!

Re: Advice Please

Originally Posted by eagleman193

This may be the wrong category if so I apologize. Anyway, the problem is I had a client who ordered some fence braces (8) from me. I cut all the pieces and tacked one up. I sent him a picture just so he could see the bar spacing. Which is 13" apart like he told me. Then he calls me and says "You used square pipe?" Now the thing is, he ordered it square! We had discussed the project several times and each time he asked me what I would use. I told him I had some 2" square pipe on hand and that it would be cheaper to use that. He said it would work fine several times in each conversation. Now he has an issue with it being square. I didn't receive a down payment as I thought he was a friend but I was counting on this check to make ends meet this month. Is he bound by the verbal contract to go ahead and buy them anyway? I know in the future now to get down payments even from friends but my question is what do I do NOW. Especially after I have the expense in it already?

I would suggest after speaking about the job verbally, I would send an email as a follow up so you would have a hard record. I never would proceed on only a verbal request.

Re: Advice Please

there are a lot of wonderful suggestions in the above-mentioned posts most of them are pretty spot on. verbal agreements are not necessarily invalidated especially when you head to small claims court. I would try to work this out amicably as a lot of the other posters have suggested. a lot of things could be worked out over a cup of coffee in a face-to-face meeting. There is an option of going to Small Claims Court and there is a chance you would prevail. I mention this as an option but would recommend against it. Most people build their businesses based on word-of-mouth. If you sour this relationship you will not only lose out on this job but potentially many more. I would take it on the chin and as a learning experience and appropriate the material towards another project. That's my two cents

Re: Advice Please

Sometimes a actual visual aid is required. Doesn't mater if it is pipe, square tube, rectangular tube, angle , channel , or whatever. People today THINK they know what you mean but just don't understand. Good thing it wasn't stainless steel.
Depending on the type of fence the square will give better support as stated and a wider flat surface to fasten too.

Re: Advice Please

For a fence brace, I would think square tube would possibly be better, structurally. Sell that idea to him.

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Being in Kansas you should be able to throw those up on CL or sit them in the front yard and get rid of them pretty easily. I'd make them round as he requested and move on with life.

Re: Advice Please

I'd agree with the need to have someone sign off on a drawing or mock up, especially if you are going to make multiple units. That way any changes can be made, fit up checked etc before too much time materials are expended in the wrong direction. I've had plenty of jobs where verbal instructions mean one thing to one person and something completely different to someone else.

As far as payment, I do it several ways. On big jobs or where I have to lay out substantial amounts up front, I want at least the materials covered in an initial payment. Then it's usually 1/2 the labor on a 2nd payment, and the rest on completion. For smaller jobs where I'm often in and out same day, it's usually payment on completion just for simplicity, but materials are usually less than $100 in these cases. Much more and I usually want some sort of advance to cover materials.

Re: Advice Please

Many "friends" are merely just an acquaintance.

Depending on how well you know this gentleman and the extent of your "friendship", I'd suggest sitting down over a cup of coffee and see what you can work out.

I agree with Oldendum - "pipe" is round and the square stuff is "tube" to avoid any future confusion.

Re: Advice Please

Get everything in writing, have design drawing ok'd and signed,get material money upfront .