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Re: 210 mvp

Originally Posted by Sberry

I am under the hood of one now,,, what a job. I would go insane if I had t5o do this every day, got the whole top of engine off in a van. Intake manifold, ranks right up there with gas tank and fuel pump stuff for your mechanic pleasure. I hate the auto trouble shoot with a passion. I would way rather dig a ditch.

A mechanic I’m not, do recommend a good power probe like the power probe 3 for automotive electrical issues. Well worth the money. Chasing low voltage electrical have done a lot of owning a 79 Bronco since 1980.

in other news blew my back out again. So I won’t be in the shop the next few weeks

Re: 210 mvp

I am under the hood of one now,,, what a job. I would go insane if I had t5o do this every day, got the whole top of engine off in a van. Intake manifold, ranks right up there with gas tank and fuel pump stuff for your mechanic pleasure. I hate the auto trouble shoot with a passion. I would way rather dig a ditch.

Re: 210 mvp

Yessir do understand stand. Rewired a 78 Bronco a degreed electrical engineer worked on. Wow what a mess, light sockets were wired grounds to hot, it took a lot of new wire, and a harness to get it corrected. He did a fine job of trying to start a fire

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Re: 210 mvp

This whole type of thing went around with one of the big makers,,, they got some genius electronic guys, some old timers retire and they were the guys kept it all in code compliance. The new wave really are genius, thats not being funny but sincere but they went thru a bit where its obvious the degree didnt require opening the code book, I think they follow some nema in design, that they jnew but ask they how to wire for a welder and get the deer in headlights look. The have since come around and gainj that experience.

Re: 210 mvp

When a guy looks at some history its neat due to some complicated thinking that wouldnt even occur to some of us. This is the reason they warn about cutting off the end and direct wiring. It might not be a technical problem if it was limited to 30A breaker but the 14 not legal on a 50 but is on 20/120V so in some sense the 120 attachment is simple pass thru and relies on some extent for the limited breaker for fault while the adapter is needed to allow it on traditional 50A welding circuits and outlets. Other places, I think some countries and even some of our devices like a wall wart,,, but others have a fuse in the plug to allow a simple higher current ring to feed them. Like Xmas tree lights, allow dinky wire at 120V on 20A due to additional fuse. The MVP adapter is similar.
I know there are some required update code classes, kind of curious if this was brought up?

Re: 210 mvp

Good you have help. This is a good circuit to do and as most of it is 99% mechanical. Modern welders are now designed for 30A circuits. Used to be 50 was standard and before the 250+ feeder were commonly wired 10/50. The wire feeders like yours are rather revolutionary. A 249 unit like the 190 and older machines came with a 12 cord, were allowed on a 14/30 circuit but,,, without the mvp adapter then now use they use same cord as a stickmate, 12, it allowes 48A on that machine and the 190 uses 1/2 that max but,,,, needs the bigger cord to allow it on 50 circuits. The 210 mvp has a larger draw but comes smaller cord via adapter.
Larger wire also makes for better terminations. If I was preparing for a larger machine might treat it separately but in cable can use 12 for the 210 if you limit it to 30. If youy want to run a buzzer, same wire as a water heater a number 10, can limit it for now if you wish but legal to 50 in the advent it was needed.
I customer wired a 12/30 a while back, I wanted to see better but he is an electric knob and a problem.

Re: 210 mvp

Like I stated I’m not an electrician and will have an actual electrician install the service and it will have to pass inspection.

thanks for for input will speak with Chris about it a bit more in depth before he pulls any wire.

Re: 210 mvp

AC/DC buzzers are kind of interesting. Single circuit in pipe or 10 cable,,, listed for number 12 @ 48A input at 75 ft. No o0ne thinks thats great but,,, I have never used mine on 225 and on DC it goes down to 36 in. Doesnt cause me sleep loss with 50 ft of 10 on them,,, most of the time its shorter, as the op of this thread mentioned 28 ft. 1/3rd the vdrop its allowed for distance.
As for hooking some of the other machines to thse circuits,,, most above 50A have other considerations and not legal on common 6 cable recept and plug circuits anyway.

Re: 210 mvp

No oine is saying not to run better than the minimum but its not required and safe enough under some circumstances. I dont wire the small machines to the minimum, it adds an extra layer of complexity that can be eliminated by simple increase in wire size, also may allow the use of cable. I really dont tend to futiure proof as much as I did back in the day, too much stuff simply parking in the wall and have never had to run new 100 service up to a light fixture or any other outlet for that matter, when I needed new it was different thing in different place and while I do have a 300 tig I dont need it everywhere. Same for this home diy type thing, am I really going to run a new 255 on the same wire I have my 210 on? I am going to run new for it. Its kind of automatic after a while to consider the circuit as part of a new machine.
There is no reason you cant wire something.

Leave that to an actual electrician.

I think a gu8y SHOULD learn a bit about this if he is going in to some welding. My point wasnt that you didnt do something right but about jumping in to what code means after 2 weeks.

It will run very well at the end of an extension cord on 110, if it needs more amps have a 220 plug on the wall of the shop.

It doesnt make you a bad person, we can get past that but saying you have a 220 plug on a wall and then assuming something about code compliance well,, ,,,
The economy is often a factor,,,, again you did not do wrong with a 6/2, its great but mentioning the cost brings up the matter this could have been done for 50 cents a foot or even a dollar and still been 2x as good as the machine needs and compliant with all the other 50A factory cord machines except the 250+ class migs which require larger wire due to duty cycle. I use the 25 ft 10 cord on mine when I get away from its home.
Had a guy on a forum real proud of scoring 100 ft of 6 so he could run down his driveway to a buzzer once in a while. Its not going to hurt but jezz. He knows more about this kind of machine and turns red in the face when you suggewst number 10 would be adequate. Has learned code from the famous,,,, someone told me,,, I was always told,,,, guy.
As mentioned, I run a bigger wire to mosrt especially these little machines simply due to the fact they are small and I figure they really need all the help they can get. A home/hobby with single wire and single gas,,,, 035 in a 250 will never wring the guts out of the machine and cant run it hard enough to warm the listed wire for it.

Re: 210 mvp

Here's the actual NEC code. Note that article 630 applies, not article 240 https://up.codes/s/electric-welders

I find this site helpful as well. http://www.codebookcity.com/codearti...article630.htm

Re: 210 mvp

Originally Posted by NotaVegetarian

Yessir hope my electrician has a good understanding of code, since it has to periodically pass inspection and any additional electrical service must be inspected. Hope there was no confusion this is not a backyard garage or similar structure. Electrical code clearly states the size of wire to be used. Besides the county electrical inspector is a stickler and sum times I think he will write it up if the screw heads are not turned like he likes them


NEC 240-3 The rating of the fuse or circuit breaker generally determines the minimum size of the circuit conductor, per the following table:
Minimum Wire Size Fuse or Circuit
Breaker Size Copper / Aluminum
15 amp ..........14... n/a
20 amp ..........12... n/a
30 amp ..........10.... 8
40 amp ...........8.... 6
50 amp ...........6.... 4

That table is COMPLETELY wrong if you are installing a dedicated welder circuit. NEC provides for over rating the conductors based on the duty cycle of the welder. This is why the owner's manual for that welder indicates you only need 14 gauge conductors for 240 volt service. Additionally that welder only pulls 24 amps max on 240, so they recommend a 30 amp breaker. NEC allows for the breaker to be oversized relative to the conductor, again based on the duty cycle. NEC has some complicated tables and calculations that you or your electrician can do to validate these recommendations, or you can just follow the manufacturer's recommendation, which is always complaint with NEC, at least as far as Miller and/or Hobart go (both ITW companies). Now if you want to spend more money to future proof yourself, go for it. But there is no need. I used to run my syncrowave 250 (which draws 92 amps at max output) on 6 gauge conductors with a 110 amp breaker, and this was fully compliant with code.

Re: 210 mvp

Have a very healthy respect for electricity, something’s I will do, running electrical service is not one of them. Leave that to an actual electrician.

Re: 210 mvp

I never mess with the people in the box stores, they do have some good hands but I was looking for a panel and couldnt find it, I see one way up and I ask the guy for it.. He said,,, well thats ok but it doesnt meet code,, I dont recall what he said but he followed it up with, ,, they really dont want us qupting code. All I could say is they probably have good reason for it. I dont recall what exactly it was, it was somnething pretty fundamental though, he says something to the effect that maybe they changed that,,, ha, it was a not now and never was deal though. I never say anything although someone did ask a while back and had to steaer him to the 14/3 for smokes when him and the asile help were looking at speaker wire cause they couldnt understand why such a little thing needed such big wire.
I did say something to someone about 10 years ago,,, the customer and asile guy were looking and trying to figure how rto wire up some hot tub stuff while not being able to decide if they were using 110 or 220. Yikes.

Re: 210 mvp

Note the word generally. But a really good way to let electricians and inspectors know how much a guy knows about it is to call it 110 and 220,,,, or 221.

Re: 210 mvp

Yessir hope my electrician has a good understanding of code, since it has to periodically pass inspection and any additional electrical service must be inspected. Hope there was no confusion this is not a backyard garage or similar structure. Electrical code clearly states the size of wire to be used. Besides the county electrical inspector is a stickler and sum times I think he will write it up if the screw heads are not turned like he likes them


NEC 240-3 The rating of the fuse or circuit breaker generally determines the minimum size of the circuit conductor, per the following table:
Minimum Wire Size Fuse or Circuit
Breaker Size Copper / Aluminum
15 amp ..........14... n/a
20 amp ..........12... n/a
30 amp ..........10.... 8
40 amp ...........8.... 6
50 amp ...........6.... 4

Re: 210 mvp

Whoops,,, there is a 5-30. But having a 15 or 20 on a 30 is not even with 10 cord.

Re: 210 mvp

Yes you do but do you understand what code is? You can use heavy wire, it wont hurt, wont really help either. Anyone ever notice there isnt really a 40A receptical? A 30A 120v is not code legal unless its going to a travel trailer and is there a twist lock 30x120??

Re: 210 mvp

Originally Posted by Sberry

For a branch that machine doesnt need 6, it has a 14 cord. The wiring instructions in the manual are not very clear for the diy gang. It lists 14 but,,, no one including me does that. It needs to be a size bigger if it is cable or cord. If using cable it runs fine on a 12 but you must limit the breaker to 30.
The machine is allowed on 50A circuit provided the wire is 12 in pipe single circuit or 10 cable or better.

Right now I’m using a 120 30 amp service on 10/3. If I pull 220 40 amp would not be comfortable using anything smaller than 8 gauge, 6 preferably that way if I do need to add a 50 amp no worries. Need to stay within code.

Re: 210 mvp

For a branch that machine doesnt need 6, it has a 14 cord. The wiring instructions in the manual are not very clear for the diy gang. It lists 14 but,,, no one including me does that. It needs to be a size bigger if it is cable or cord. If using cable it runs fine on a 12 but you must limit the breaker to 30.
The machine is allowed on 50A circuit provided the wire is 12 in pipe single circuit or 10 cable or better.

Re: 210 mvp

Have plenty of power in my shop, for a service pull. The price of wire will make your knees buckle. 60’ of 6/3 ouch!

Re: 210 mvp

I would look at dryer for 240 voltage and 30 amps.
Most home have dryer in or close to garage. The dryer plug is very little and when the dryer is use just don't weld.

Dave

Originally Posted by NotaVegetarian

The 120 outlet have set up and use the welder on has a 30amp service breaker, and outlet. Just need to run a 220 outlet for a little more power when needed.

Re: 210 mvp

The 120 outlet have set up and use the welder on has a 30amp service breaker, and outlet. Just need to run a 220 outlet for a little more power when needed.

Re: 210 mvp

Originally Posted by Sberry

You could get 10 more volts free by plugging in to a 120V outlet.

Re: 210 mvp

It’s runs great on 120, have a 100’ 10 gauge extension cord for stuff outside the shop or in the barn. So far it works great, I just have to learn to trust the guide under the door. The old welder this replaced ran hotter not as much control. It was a northern tool brand, it did ok around the farm had it about 5 years, wire feed was getting erratic. This one is much nicer, feed is smooth and consistent.

Re: 210 mvp

You could get 10 more volts free by plugging in to a 120V outlet.