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Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

I think he's right and he communicates with me and pretty much everyone else just fine. LoL

Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

Originally Posted by denlow60

well if you have no understanding of welding and what is involved. then I can't help you. either you are blind or you must be right.
I'm done with the back and forth.

look for someone else who understands welding and well-realized subjects to communicate on your level.

Lol - funniest response I've seen in a while

Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

To me most on post just do ag type welding. Ag type of welding does not need to meet any spec's
There so many industries that have there own spec's for welding (building, oil field , ships, tanks, pressure tanks , pipe lines & more) that you for know for that industry and will want to use a different rod.

Dave

Originally Posted by denlow60

well if you have no understanding of welding and what is involved. then I can't help you. either you are blind or you must be right.
I'm done with the back and forth.

look for someone else who understands welding and well-realized subjects to communicate on your level.

Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave

Denlow60, you used a lot of words to admit that your initial blanket statement of PWHT for anything not welded with low hydrogen rods was false.

Again, you used specific examples instead of backing up your statement.

well if you have no understanding of welding and what is involved. then I can't help you. either you are blind or you must be right.
I'm done with the back and forth.

look for someone else who understands welding and well-realized subjects to communicate on your level.

Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

From what I see in post 155, this looks like it is for creating a weld procedure qualification using a controlled deposition welding technique.

Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

Denlow60, you used a lot of words to admit that your initial blanket statement of PWHT for anything not welded with low hydrogen rods was false.

Again, you used specific examples instead of backing up your statement.

Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

Originally Posted by snoeproe

I’ve never seen a pipe fitter welder post heating his/her 6010 root pass. You just dont see that. Nor is it necessary.
Low carbon steels don’t require post heat. Pre heat is a good idea to drive out hydrogen on thicker steels and while working in cold temps.

you do not need to preheat less than 0.40 CE.
but on this list of pipeline almost everything is more than 0.43 CE or more.
if you don't preheat than you are more likely to get cold cracks

List below in the pdf


Attachment 1716319

Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

Originally Posted by Kelvin

Wow, 500°F for two hours. On a big pipe, that must require a big heat source, especially in wind. How is this typically done in the field? What heat source is used?

Resistive heating elements / HF heating elements

Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

Originally Posted by denlow60

8) For welds made by SMAW, once filling is completed do not allow the weldment to cool below the minimum
preheat temperature. As well, raise the weldment temperature to 500 °F ± 50 °F (260 °C ± 30 °C) for a minimum
period of two hours. This assists out-gassing diffusion of any weld metal hydrogen picked up during welding.
This hydrogen bake-out may be omitted when H4 filler metal (such as E7018-H4) is specified.


point 8 answers your questions and also your question about E6010 rods

Wow, 500°F for two hours. On a big pipe, that must require a big heat source, especially in wind. How is this typically done in the field? What heat source is used?

Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave

Sure, for specific cases it would be done - as shown in my post #133.

This does not answer why you wrote:


I maintain there is no such blanket recommendation and PWHT is just for specific cases as approved by the engineer or entity who wrote the WPS.

Do you disagree? Source? Or are you going to continue with this ridiculous back-and-forth?

Piping Inspection Code: In-service
Inspection, Rating, Repair, and
Alteration of Piping Systems

API 570
FOURTH EDITION, FEBRUARY 2016
PIPING INSPECTION CODE: IN-SERVICE INSPECTION, RATING, REPAIR, AND ALTERATION OF PIPING SYSTEMS

8.2.4.3 Controlled-deposition Welding Method (Notch Toughness Testing Required)

The controlled-deposition welding method may be used in lieu of PWHT in accordance with the following:

a) Notch toughness testing, such as that established by ASME B31.1, Chapter III Section 323, is necessary when
impact tests are required by the original code of construction or the construction code applicable to the work
planned.

b) The materials shall be limited to P-No. 1, P-No. 3, and P-No. 4 steels.

c) The welding shall be limited to the shielded-metal-arc welding (SMAW), gas-metal-arc welding (GMAW), fluxcored
arc welding (FCAW), and gas–tungsten arc welding (GTAW) processes.

d) A weld procedure specification shall be developed and qualified for each application. The welding procedure shall
define the preheat temperature and interpass temperature and include the post-heating temperature requirement
in f(8). The qualification thickness for the test plates and repair grooves shall be in accordance with Table 3.The
test material for the welding procedure qualification shall be of the same material specification (including
specification type, grade, class and condition of heat treatment) as the original material specification for the repair.
If the original material specification is obsolete, the test material used should conform as much as possible to the
material used for construction, but in no case shall the material be lower in strength or have a carbon content of
more than 0.35 %.

e) When impact tests are required by the construction code applicable to the work planned, the PQR shall include
sufficient tests to determine if the toughness of the weld metal and the heat-affected zone of the base metal in the
as-welded condition is adequate at the minimum design metal temperature (such as the criteria used in ASME
B31.3). If special hardness limits are necessary (for example, as set forth in NACE RP 0472 and MR 0103) for
corrosion resistance, the PQR shall include hardness tests as well.

f) The WPS shall include the following additional requirements.

1) The supplementary essential variables of ASME Code, Section IX, Paragraph QW-250 WELDING VARIABLES, shall apply.

2) The maximum weld heat input for each layer shall not exceed that used in the procedure qualification test.

3) The minimum preheat temperature for welding shall not be less than that used in the procedure qualification
test.

4) The maximum interpass temperature for welding shall not be greater than that used in the procedure
qualification test.

5) The preheat temperature shall be checked to assure that 4 in. (100 mm) of the material or four times the
material thickness (whichever is greater) on each side of the weld joint will be maintained at the minimum
temperature during welding. When the weld does not penetrate through the full thickness of the material, the
minimum preheat temperature need only be maintained at a distance of 4 in. (100 mm) or four times the depth
of the repair weld, whichever is greater on each side of the joint.
PIPING INSPECTION CODE: IN-SERVICE INSPECTION, RATING, REPAIR, AND ALTERATION OF PIPING SYSTEMS 67

6) For the allowed welding processes in Item c, use only electrodes and filler metals that are classified by the filler
metal specification with an optional supplemental diffusible-hydrogen designator of H8 or lower. When shielding
gases are used with a process, the gas shall exhibit a dew point that is not higher than –60 °F (–50 °C).
Surfaces on which welding will be done shall be maintained in a dry condition during welding and free of rust,
mill scale and hydrogen producing contaminants such as oil, grease and other organic materials.

7) The welding technique shall be a controlled-deposition, temper-bead or half-bead technique. The specific
technique shall be used in the procedure qualification test.

8) For welds made by SMAW, once filling is completed do not allow the weldment to cool below the minimum
preheat temperature. As well, raise the weldment temperature to 500 °F ± 50 °F (260 °C ± 30 °C) for a minimum
period of two hours. This assists out-gassing diffusion of any weld metal hydrogen picked up during welding.
This hydrogen bake-out may be omitted when H4 filler metal (such as E7018-H4) is specified.


point 8 answers your questions and also your question about E6010 rods

Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

He's too busy giving electrical and trailer advice to do any welding. I get the feeling he thought if he knew all the theory it would make learning easier. Doesn't work that way in welding. No substitute for burning rods.

Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

Huh. Seven pages and 152 posts for an OP who can probably count how many rods he's burned on the fingers of two fingers.

So: "FlyFishn"? Or "ClickbaitTrolln"

Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

The misconceptions about pre-heating:

https://www.thefabricator.com/thewel...eheating-steel

Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

Originally Posted by Welder Dave

If it was a weld that had to follow a code and it failed a lawsuit could be successful. If it was a non code weld, I think it would be extremely difficult to prove it was solely because of using non heated 7018. They would have to look at a lot of other factors to determine the cause of the failure. It could be a combination of things. Code work x-rays and other test results are kept for 7 years incase of problems down the road.

I'd be willing to bet that if an unheated 7018 weld on sub-20mm thickness mild steel broke, then it would be either parent metal (so design problem or over-stress in use) OR, the weld wasn't sound to start with - Other, visible problems like porosity, lack of continuity, slag entrapment, undersized fillet length, etc.

Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

I’ve never seen a pipe fitter welder post heating his/her 6010 root pass. You just dont see that. Nor is it necessary.
Low carbon steels don’t require post heat. Pre heat is a good idea to drive out hydrogen on thicker steels and while working in cold temps.

Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

If it was a weld that had to follow a code and it failed a lawsuit could be successful. If it was a non code weld, I think it would be extremely difficult to prove it was solely because of using non heated 7018. They would have to look at a lot of other factors to determine the cause of the failure. It could be a combination of things. Code work x-rays and other test results are kept for 7 years incase of problems down the road.

Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

Originally Posted by Welder Dave

I would like to see where it could be absolutely proven a non heated 7018 weld was solely responsible for a weld failure.

Lawyers don't need to prove that to file (or even win) a lawsuit. All they need is a victim who suffered a loss, a jury that feels sorry for the victim, and a plausible story from "expert witnesses" that could conceivably pin the blame on someone.

Blameless people get sued for BS reasons all the time, and innocent people lose lawsuits (or settle out of court) on frivolous claims by unscrupulous plaintiffs and attorneys all the time, too.

Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

Originally Posted by denlow60

Post-heating or hydrogen annealing
Annealing at a temperature of 200-250 ° C is more or less the equivalent of maintaining the preheat temperature after welding.
This is generally not necessary for the usual steel grades.
Some low-alloy steels and their usual consumables are so susceptible to hydrogen cracking that, when cooling down after welding, there is still a risk of hydrogen cracking.
By keeping the workpiece at the preheating temperature (or slightly higher) for some time after welding, the hydrogen is allowed to diffuse out of the weld joint. This annealing treatment is also known as "soaking" in Europe.

Sure, for specific cases it would be done - as shown in my post #133.

This does not answer why you wrote:

Originally Posted by denlow60

Cellulosic coverings for E6010 [E4310] and E6011 [E4311] electrodes need moisture levels of approximately
3% to 7% for proper operation; therefore, storage or conditioning above ambient temperature may dry them too
much and adversely affect their operation

After welding such rods it is recommended to give a heat treatment / post-heat (soaking)

I maintain there is no such blanket recommendation and PWHT is just for specific cases as approved by the engineer or entity who wrote the WPS.

Do you disagree? Source? Or are you going to continue with this ridiculous back-and-forth?

Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave

I don't think you are following the line of thought, or you're just being argumentative for no good reason.

A Professional isn't less professional for using unheated rods on material that does not require low-hydrogen rods.
There are even 2 different sections in the AWS table 3.2 for pre-heat depending on using low-hydrogen or not.
Why would that be the case if it wasn't a correct practice?
....it even says "Prequalified" at the top of the table....

Also waiting for your source for PWHT being "recommended" and your rebuttal to AWS D1.1 for their inaccurate descriptions of PWHT.

BTW, I would have expected someone like yourself, who tells others they are wrong and throws around "WPS" and "rules" would know all this already.

Attachment 1716234

Attachment 1716235

Post-heating or hydrogen annealing
Annealing at a temperature of 200-250 ° C is more or less the equivalent of maintaining the preheat temperature after welding.
This is generally not necessary for the usual steel grades.
Some low-alloy steels and their usual consumables are so susceptible to hydrogen cracking that, when cooling down after welding, there is still a risk of hydrogen cracking.
By keeping the workpiece at the preheating temperature (or slightly higher) for some time after welding, the hydrogen is allowed to diffuse out of the weld joint. This annealing treatment is also known as "soaking" in Europe.

Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave

I'm aware of the fact that 6010/11 don't get baked.

What resource are you referring to when you write "recommended to give a heat treatment/post-heat (soaking)"?

Page 425,426 of D1.1 (2004) would seem to indicate that such recommendation would certainly not be a blanket recommendation and is subject to degradation of notch toughness for some metals and is further a restricted process for other metals.

Attachment 1716223

Attachment 1716225

Attachment 1716226

and page 61:
Attachment 1716227

Post-heating or hydrogen annealing
Annealing at a temperature of 200-250 ° C is more or less the equivalent of maintaining the preheat temperature after welding.
This is generally not necessary for the usual steel grades.
Some low-alloy steels and their usual consumables are so susceptible to hydrogen cracking that, when cooling down after welding, there is still a risk of hydrogen cracking.
By keeping the workpiece at the preheating temperature (or slightly higher) for some time after welding, the hydrogen is allowed to diffuse out of the weld joint. This annealing treatment is also known as "soaking" in Europe.

Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

Originally Posted by denlow60

Hey,
see here what AWS D1.1 says.

5.3.2.1 Low-Hydrogen Electrode Storage Conditions.
All electrodes having low hydrogen coverings conforming
to AWS A5.1 and AWS A5.5 shall be purchased
in hermetically sealed containers or shall be baked by the
user in conformance with 5.3.2.4 prior to use. Immediately
after opening the hermetically sealed container,
electrodes shall be stored in ovens held at a temperature
of at least 250°F [120°C]. Electrodes shall be rebaked no
more than once. Electrodes that have been wet shall not
be used.

5.3.2.4 Baking Electrodes. Electrodes exposed to
the atmosphere for periods greater than those allowed in
Table 5.1 shall be baked as follows:
(1) All electrodes having low-hydrogen coverings
conforming to AWS A5.1 shall be baked for at least two
hours between 500°F and 800°F [260°C and 430°C], or
(2) All electrodes having low-hydrogen coverings
conforming to AWS A5.5 shall be baked for at least one
hour at temperatures between 700°F and 800°F [370°C
and 430°C].
All electrodes shall be placed in a suitable oven at a
temperature not exceeding one half the final baking temperature
for a minimum of one half hour prior to increasing
the oven temperature to the final baking temperature.
Final baking time shall start after the oven reaches final
baking temperature.

Of course it says that, no one disputes it and it's common knowledge.

Any time low-hydrogen 7018 rods are a necessity, that's what you follow.

One of the actual topics is that whenever low-hydrogen is not a necessity, it doesn't make any difference.

You haven't answered or backed up your claims yet from mine above or from others.

Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave

I don't think you are following the line of thought, or you're just being argumentative for no good reason.

A Professional isn't less professional for using unheated rods on material that does not require low-hydrogen rods.
There are even 2 different sections in the AWS table 3.2 for pre-heat depending on using low-hydrogen or not.
Why would that be the case if it wasn't a correct practice?
....it even says "Prequalified" at the top of the table....

Also waiting for your source for PWHT being "recommended" and your rebuttal to AWS D1.1 for their inaccurate descriptions of PWHT.

BTW, I would have expected someone like yourself, who tells others they are wrong and throws around "WPS" and "rules" would know all this already.

Attachment 1716234

Attachment 1716235

Hey,
see here what AWS D1.1 says.

5.3.2.1 Low-Hydrogen Electrode Storage Conditions.
All electrodes having low hydrogen coverings conforming
to AWS A5.1 and AWS A5.5 shall be purchased
in hermetically sealed containers or shall be baked by the
user in conformance with 5.3.2.4 prior to use. Immediately
after opening the hermetically sealed container,
electrodes shall be stored in ovens held at a temperature
of at least 250°F [120°C]. Electrodes shall be rebaked no
more than once. Electrodes that have been wet shall not
be used.

5.3.2.4 Baking Electrodes. Electrodes exposed to
the atmosphere for periods greater than those allowed in
Table 5.1 shall be baked as follows:
(1) All electrodes having low-hydrogen coverings
conforming to AWS A5.1 shall be baked for at least two
hours between 500°F and 800°F [260°C and 430°C], or
(2) All electrodes having low-hydrogen coverings
conforming to AWS A5.5 shall be baked for at least one
hour at temperatures between 700°F and 800°F [370°C
and 430°C].
All electrodes shall be placed in a suitable oven at a
temperature not exceeding one half the final baking temperature
for a minimum of one half hour prior to increasing
the oven temperature to the final baking temperature.
Final baking time shall start after the oven reaches final
baking temperature.

Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

First of all the Northridge Earthquake weld failures did not involve 7018. The failed welds mostly involved Innershield E70T-4 wire which has now been banned for structural welding. I would like to see where it could be absolutely proven a non heated 7018 weld was solely responsible for a weld failure. Here is something of interest regarding poor welds and fabrication techniques in the city I live in. Don't try to pass off bad welds in Alberta. We have some of the highest standards in the world.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...eges-1.3511252

Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

I agree
We live in a lawsuit-happy society.
Also the lawsuit-happy will use anything not to pay so forest you to sue for your pay.

More professional you are the better pay from this type of people.

After the North Ridge earthquake California was hard on welders. Let's find something wrong how the welder did his or her work.

Dave

Originally Posted by Kelvin

Given our lawsuit-happy society, and given the catastrophic things that can happen that might be blamed on weld failures, I'd be willing to bet substantial money that people have been sued for making hydrogen-embrittled welds with moist 7018. I can't imagine that there haven't been lots of such lawsuits, though I can't name one.

If nothing else, I could imagine a general contractor suing a sub if he found out the sub wasn't using 7018 in the specked manner...the general's not going to want his name on it forever more if it's not done to spec ... and somebody's got to pay to re-do it to spec...

Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

Originally Posted by Welder Dave

I'd like to see a case where someone was sued because they didn't use 7018 from an oven.

Given our lawsuit-happy society, and given the catastrophic things that can happen that might be blamed on weld failures, I'd be willing to bet substantial money that people have been sued for making hydrogen-embrittled welds with moist 7018. I can't imagine that there haven't been lots of such lawsuits, though I can't name one.

If nothing else, I could imagine a general contractor suing a sub if he found out the sub wasn't using 7018 in the specked manner...the general's not going to want his name on it forever more if it's not done to spec ... and somebody's got to pay to re-do it to spec...