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Re: Bad tungsten causing sparks and porosity on mild steel?

Originally Posted by Mach_Zero

This is really good to know! That's a relief. Upon inspection, the collet body looked fine other than the copper discoloration/oxides from heating. But yeah the gas lens is incredible.

How about the gas lens? Do they wear out and go bad too? And if so, do they last longer or shorter than standard collet bodies? I would assume longer if anything since they have the diffuser.

Over time the outer screen may catch debris. When it is so bad I suspect bad flow I tear it off to expose the screen under it. You want at least one good screen left to normalize the flow. But at that time I relegate them for crap work.

Inside the gas lens the seat where the collet gets pinched can deform and wear allowing the collet to drop and the back cap to cover the gas port in the torch. Now I only use TecTorch "Made in USA" collets machined from tellurium copper alloy. They cost twice as much as chinese soft copper collets but they last ages. By the time the seats wear, the screens in the gas lens are usually toast too. So I pull the last stainless screens and recycle the copper. TecTorch consumables are usually only available from authorized distributors like your local weld supplier. But the performance is outstanding and all made in USA.

Re: Bad tungsten causing sparks and porosity on mild steel?

Originally Posted by shovelon

Yes collets wear out. But more often bad collet bodies screw up the gas flow right off. Not that I hate standard collet bodies, I have had much better success with the gas lens.

This is really good to know! That's a relief. Upon inspection, the collet body looked fine other than the copper discoloration/oxides from heating. But yeah the gas lens is incredible.

How about the gas lens? Do they wear out and go bad too? And if so, do they last longer or shorter than standard collet bodies? I would assume longer if anything since they have the diffuser.

Re: Bad tungsten causing sparks and porosity on mild steel?

Originally Posted by Mach_Zero

Yeah you're definitely right. I just couldn't figure out why my aluminum welds looked perfectly fine (any ugliness was purely due to my technique, not the argon coverage lol). But then steel was giving me the issues. I was trying to hold off on getting a gas lens because I've read online and seen videos where people advise you learn on standard consumables to develop proper technique, then later you can get the fancy gear.

The ceramic cup I was using is one of the longer ones, and I still can't figure out why it was giving me issues. Do collet bodies wear out or something? Even with a new collet it was giving the same results. But even with the new stubby collet body (non gas lens) I was getting great coverage. I can't wrap my head around what went wrong with the original collet body. It came with the machine and was used quite a bit by the previous owner, but still it looks ok. Just a little discolored from the heat.

Maybe the ceramic cup was dirty and causing those issues? I have two ceramic cups that came with the machine, #5 and #8, and both were giving me issues. So that's why I feel like it's the collet body rather than the cup. No idea.




Ha! Yeah plenty of learning to do in this hobby. But it's been a fun journey.

Yes collets wear out. But more often bad collet bodies screw up the gas flow right off. Not that I hate standard collet bodies, I have had much better success with the gas lens.

Re: Bad tungsten causing sparks and porosity on mild steel?

Originally Posted by shovelon

It is amazing how a nice gas flow improves quality and productivity. After playing around with it you can actually lower your flow to save gas, then when hit the bottom limit raise a tad. I found only standard collet bodies with extended ceramic nozzles flow argon well. I guess the length of the inside gives the turbulence a chance to dissipate. I do use standard extended cups for getting into deep places, and have basically mothballed my short ones. Gas lenses are the shizzle.

Yeah you're definitely right. I just couldn't figure out why my aluminum welds looked perfectly fine (any ugliness was purely due to my technique, not the argon coverage lol). But then steel was giving me the issues. I was trying to hold off on getting a gas lens because I've read online and seen videos where people advise you learn on standard consumables to develop proper technique, then later you can get the fancy gear.

The ceramic cup I was using is one of the longer ones, and I still can't figure out why it was giving me issues. Do collet bodies wear out or something? Even with a new collet it was giving the same results. But even with the new stubby collet body (non gas lens) I was getting great coverage. I can't wrap my head around what went wrong with the original collet body. It came with the machine and was used quite a bit by the previous owner, but still it looks ok. Just a little discolored from the heat.

Maybe the ceramic cup was dirty and causing those issues? I have two ceramic cups that came with the machine, #5 and #8, and both were giving me issues. So that's why I feel like it's the collet body rather than the cup. No idea.

Originally Posted by Munkul

We all have to learn it You'll know for the next time... and there will be a next time, I have no doubt, that's just life!

Ha! Yeah plenty of learning to do in this hobby. But it's been a fun journey.

Re: Bad tungsten causing sparks and porosity on mild steel?

Originally Posted by Mach_Zero

Lesson learned! Sparks means no gas coverage. Makes sense since I would imagine sparks can only occur in the presence of oxygen. Even a contaminated weld shouldn't spark if there's no oxygen for it to burn.

We all have to learn it You'll know for the next time... and there will be a next time, I have no doubt, that's just life!

Re: Bad tungsten causing sparks and porosity on mild steel?

Originally Posted by Mach_Zero

Ok so it's definitely a gas coverage issue.

I was struggling again with some simple butt and outside corner joints on some test pieces, even with carefully ground tungsten and sanded metal (not acetone clean, but pretty clean).

I bought a consumable kit online that came with all the stubby consumables as well as stubby gas lens consumables.

First try with the new collet body, collet, and ceramic cup (non gas lens) and I had a perfectly clean weld with no porosity or sparks. And this was with the same tungsten diameter and same ceramic cup diameter I had been using. Old collet body must have some issues or something.

Switched to gas lens and #10 Pyrex glass cup (just because it looks cool lol) and same clean weld bead. Even on a dirty butt joint it still left a really nice weld. The puddle was dirty and it left some deposits on the top of the bead (scrap test pieces), but no sparks or porosity. And the Pyrex cups are awesome!

Lesson learned! Sparks means no gas coverage. Makes sense since I would imagine sparks can only occur in the presence of oxygen. Even a contaminated weld shouldn't spark if there's no oxygen for it to burn.

I'll stop being lazy and cut some test coupons and really get them perfectly clean for a weld. Then I'll post some pictures and see what you guys think.

It is amazing how a nice gas flow improves quality and productivity. After playing around with it you can actually lower your flow to save gas, then when hit the bottom limit raise a tad. I found only standard collet bodies with extended ceramic nozzles flow argon well. I guess the length of the inside gives the turbulence a chance to dissipate. I do use standard extended cups for getting into deep places, and have basically mothballed my short ones. Gas lenses are the shizzle.

Re: Bad tungsten causing sparks and porosity on mild steel?

Ok so it's definitely a gas coverage issue.

I was struggling again with some simple butt and outside corner joints on some test pieces, even with carefully ground tungsten and sanded metal (not acetone clean, but pretty clean).

I bought a consumable kit online that came with all the stubby consumables as well as stubby gas lens consumables.

First try with the new collet body, collet, and ceramic cup (non gas lens) and I had a perfectly clean weld with no porosity or sparks. And this was with the same tungsten diameter and same ceramic cup diameter I had been using. Old collet body must have some issues or something.

Switched to gas lens and #10 Pyrex glass cup (just because it looks cool lol) and same clean weld bead. Even on a dirty butt joint it still left a really nice weld. The puddle was dirty and it left some deposits on the top of the bead (scrap test pieces), but no sparks or porosity. And the Pyrex cups are awesome!

Lesson learned! Sparks means no gas coverage. Makes sense since I would imagine sparks can only occur in the presence of oxygen. Even a contaminated weld shouldn't spark if there's no oxygen for it to burn.

I'll stop being lazy and cut some test coupons and really get them perfectly clean for a weld. Then I'll post some pictures and see what you guys think.

Re: Bad tungsten causing sparks and porosity on mild steel?

Originally Posted by Mach_Zero

Oh sorry I thought you were being facetious. The tungsten that was giving me issues could be a cheap one since it came with a Vulcan machine (it's 2% ceriated just in case anyone was wondering). And the new stuff I got was from CK so I think it was good. But I think there was probably something else going on like me not cleaning the rest of the tungsten and not jusr grinding the tip. I've been messing around more and more and just noticing little things while tinkering. I'd like to get a gas lens and just upgrade the torch eventually. First step is the new power cable that is arriving hopefully tomorrow (shipping was delayed ). Thanks for your help!




I'm definitely learning this lesson the hard way. Cleaning is so tedious at times I do a lazy job. But I'm realizing the only way you'll get nice welds is if the base metal is very clean. I'll have to pick up some acetone tomorrow. Then I'll weld that test coupon and report back. At any rate, despite the hiccups tig welding is a lot of fun. I appreciate everyone in this forum for helping me out.

Also if anyone has some good recommendations for a gas lens, let me know. (Not looking for the huge cups, just some standard cup sizes with the gas lens)

Non chlorinated brake cleaner is acetone in an aerosol can. DO NOT USE CHLORINATED BRAKE CLEANER!
Steel isn't quite as fussy as aluminum, but you can't have mill scale or rust.

Re: Bad tungsten causing sparks and porosity on mild steel?

Originally Posted by Welder Dave

I wasn't trying to be smart. Most tungsten comes out of China... and have heard of bad tungsten like Lanthanated splitting. A lot of people still prefer 2% thoriated with an inverter. Only reason some suppliers dropped it is they think it's going to turn weldors into Spiderman because it has slight amounts of radiation.

Oh sorry I thought you were being facetious. The tungsten that was giving me issues could be a cheap one since it came with a Vulcan machine (it's 2% ceriated just in case anyone was wondering). And the new stuff I got was from CK so I think it was good. But I think there was probably something else going on like me not cleaning the rest of the tungsten and not jusr grinding the tip. I've been messing around more and more and just noticing little things while tinkering. I'd like to get a gas lens and just upgrade the torch eventually. First step is the new power cable that is arriving hopefully tomorrow (shipping was delayed ). Thanks for your help!

Originally Posted by Willie B

Steel must be ground for TIG welding. No solvent or soap is a substitute. Acetone after.

I'm definitely learning this lesson the hard way. Cleaning is so tedious at times I do a lazy job. But I'm realizing the only way you'll get nice welds is if the base metal is very clean. I'll have to pick up some acetone tomorrow. Then I'll weld that test coupon and report back. At any rate, despite the hiccups tig welding is a lot of fun. I appreciate everyone in this forum for helping me out.

Also if anyone has some good recommendations for a gas lens, let me know. (Not looking for the huge cups, just some standard cup sizes with the gas lens)

Re: Bad tungsten causing sparks and porosity on mild steel?

Originally Posted by Willie B

I wonder about a machine malfunction sticking on AC.

I experimented once DC EP for aluminum. The sparks were like sparklers on independence day! Aluminum AC with balance reversed IE 80/20 EP will spark bad! 80/20 EN might not do enough to cathodically clean (I learned that from Shovelon), but no fireworks.

I haven't figured this out. Can't help thinking 5 minutes with Shovelon, you'd be fixed.

You have one minor problem, figure it out, you're golden.

Buy me a round trip plane ticket, I'll get there, call Shovelon, I'll fix you.

Huh, wut?

We had a run of shenanigans a while back. An A-hole was cutting stainless tig rod, grinding like a tungsten and loading them in our torches. Fer sher the culprit was a gas problem. Would not weld for beans and melted back the electrode. That was a fun day. I promised not to do it again.

Re: Bad tungsten causing sparks and porosity on mild steel?

Originally Posted by Mach_Zero

Lol thanks Welder Dave. I mean that was the entire premise of my post though. I tried a new tungsten and it worked way better. So I was just asking if it's possible for an electrode to go bad.

Ultimately I think the issue is that even though I had ground in a new tip, I hadn't cleaned the oxides on the shank of the tungsten electrode that I thought was the problem.

I wasn't trying to be smart. Most tungsten comes out of China... and have heard of bad tungsten like Lanthanated splitting. A lot of people still prefer 2% thoriated with an inverter. Only reason some suppliers dropped it is they think it's going to turn weldors into Spiderman because it has slight amounts of radiation.

Re: Bad tungsten causing sparks and porosity on mild steel?

Steel must be ground for TIG welding. No solvent or soap is a substitute. Acetone after.

Re: Bad tungsten causing sparks and porosity on mild steel?

Originally Posted by Mach_Zero

Lol that would be awesome (if I could afford it).

I'm gonna super clean some mild steel coupons and super clean the tungsten. Then I'll weld a T joint or something similar and post the results.

So far it works great on aluminum so that's why I've been confused. Everything I've read or seen online has said that tig welding aluminum should be more difficult but now in my experience.

Or, if you can get him to give you his phone number.......Little cost.

He bailed me out a few times when I was new. He has forgot more than I will ever know.

You are working well on aluminum. It is nagging me that your machine is stuck on AC. Sparks are something I haven't seen except on EP half cycle. Too much EP causes too much heat to flow to the tungsten. It burns up. Might explain spatter I'd expect stick welding, or MIG with CO2.

Re: Bad tungsten causing sparks and porosity on mild steel?

Originally Posted by Willie B

I haven't figured this out. Can't help thinking 5 minutes with Shovelon, you'd be fixed.

You have one minor problem, figure it out, you're golden.

Buy me a round trip plane ticket, I'll get there, call Shovelon, I'll fix you.

Lol that would be awesome (if I could afford it).

I'm gonna super clean some mild steel coupons and super clean the tungsten. Then I'll weld a T joint or something similar and post the results.

So far it works great on aluminum so that's why I've been confused. Everything I've read or seen online has said that tig welding aluminum should be more difficult but now in my experience.

Re: Bad tungsten causing sparks and porosity on mild steel?

Originally Posted by Welder Dave

I think the easiest thing to do is just try a new, maybe different tungsten?

Lol thanks Welder Dave. I mean that was the entire premise of my post though. I tried a new tungsten and it worked way better. So I was just asking if it's possible for an electrode to go bad.

Ultimately I think the issue is that even though I had ground in a new tip, I hadn't cleaned the oxides on the shank of the tungsten electrode that I thought was the problem.

Re: Bad tungsten causing sparks and porosity on mild steel?

I think the easiest thing to do is just try a new, maybe different tungsten?

Re: Bad tungsten causing sparks and porosity on mild steel?

Originally Posted by 12V71

Polarity is a good point, Positive polarity is going to decimate the tungsten. IIRC, it takes a 1/4" tungsten to handle 200 amps DCEP.

I wonder about a machine malfunction sticking on AC.

I experimented once DC EP for aluminum. The sparks were like sparklers on independence day! Aluminum AC with balance reversed IE 80/20 EP will spark bad! 80/20 EN might not do enough to cathodically clean (I learned that from Shovelon), but no fireworks.

I haven't figured this out. Can't help thinking 5 minutes with Shovelon, you'd be fixed.

You have one minor problem, figure it out, you're golden.

Buy me a round trip plane ticket, I'll get there, call Shovelon, I'll fix you.

Re: Bad tungsten causing sparks and porosity on mild steel?

You have more spatter than I expect. The whole area is blackened. Either you are holding too long an arc, too much stickout, an air leak in the torch, or contaminated tungsten.

Grinding tungsten everybody does something different. Some will say I do it wrong. Where the collet grips the tungsten to the point is perhaps 3/4". I grind that length if contaminated. I use a dedicated bench grinder with two grooves worn in the fine stone. It lays on its back so the wheels turn away from me. I grind a handfull of tungstens to shape, then switch grooves to perfect the point. Tungsten for steel gets a needle sharp point, aluminum gets a more blunt shape.

In the torch the white washer, then gas lens tightened finger tight, then ceramic cup I often use a #7 cup. Gas flow usually about twice the CFH as cup size.
Tungsten, collet, washer & tail cap last. Don't get long with stick out if you don't have to.

Arc length 1 thru 1-1/2 times tungsten diameter.

Outside corners are tough. I believe gas fails to get into the joint & stay pure. A block of aluminum clamped inside the corner when you weld it will trap gas that might blow around inside the box. Grind the corner of this aluminum block.

Re: Bad tungsten causing sparks and porosity on mild steel?

Originally Posted by Willie B

Ever seen a kitchen faucet with aerator missing? Water blasts out, splashes all over the place. Screw on a clean aerator. all the splattering goes away. A gas lens is a faucet aerator. Helps calm the turbulence. I use one mostly ALL welds.

Are you sure you are welding Electrode Negative?

Yeah I'm definitely using electrode negative. Don't think the machine would put any gas at all if I plugged the torch into the positive side since the gas goes through the diesel connector. I'll probably get a gas lens kit but I'm just not sure if it's a technique problem. I welded some more steel today and it didn't shoot sparks at first but I think I overheated the part and oxides formed. Got some more porosity and sparks a little later. But I'll try to clean the metal some more. It doesn't help that I'm trying outside corner joints when I'm not a good enough welder to do that yet lol.

What would be be good weld joint to do so I can post a picture for feedback? Simple butt joint, T joint?

Originally Posted by 12V71

Polarity is a good point, Positive polarity is going to decimate the tungsten. IIRC, it takes a 1/4" tungsten to handle 200 amps DCEP.

Yeah I mean I'll check again but I'm definitely plugging in the torch on the EN side. I wouldn't get any gas at all if I plugged the torch into the positive side since the gas goes through the dinse connector. I think it's possible I'm just get using a poor technique. Maybe also some bad gas? But my aluminum welds turn out better than steel so it wouldn't make any sense.

Re: Bad tungsten causing sparks and porosity on mild steel?

Originally Posted by Willie B

Ever seen a kitchen faucet with aerator missing? Water blasts out, splashes all over the place. Screw on a clean aerator. all the splattering goes away. A gas lens is a faucet aerator. Helps calm the turbulence. I use one mostly ALL welds.

Are you sure you are welding Electrode Negative?

Polarity is a good point, Positive polarity is going to decimate the tungsten. IIRC, it takes a 1/4" tungsten to handle 200 amps DCEP.

Re: Bad tungsten causing sparks and porosity on mild steel?

Maybe bad gas if worse on aluminum. Worked at a place that had a lot of argon returned because they didn't purge the cylinders before they were filled. Expensive mistake. Something happened and their CO2 bulk tank got contaminated. I thought the EPA was going to show up with the huge cloud of CO2 being released into the atmosphere.

Re: Bad tungsten causing sparks and porosity on mild steel?

Ever seen a kitchen faucet with aerator missing? Water blasts out, splashes all over the place. Screw on a clean aerator. all the splattering goes away. A gas lens is a faucet aerator. Helps calm the turbulence. I use one mostly ALL welds.

Are you sure you are welding Electrode Negative?

Re: Bad tungsten causing sparks and porosity on mild steel?

Originally Posted by Mach_Zero

Thanks! I'll get one of those. I'm wondering if I should upgrade the regulator too. The one I have is one of those cheap ones that have two gauges and says Argon/CO2. The torch looks pretty good and I can feel flow coming out but I would also like to get a gas lens eventually.

The ones I get are $15 with free shipping on eBay and are very accurate. Just make sure it is graduated in square cubic feet, no liters. As far as the flow regulator it might dead on accurate so I would wait to confirm flow at torch.

Re: Bad tungsten causing sparks and porosity on mild steel?

Originally Posted by shovelon

You really might want to invest in one of these. Checks your gas flow at the torch. If it does not match the gauge you need to figure out why. Attachment 1728017

Thanks! I'll get one of those. I'm wondering if I should upgrade the regulator too. The one I have is one of those cheap ones that have two gauges and says Argon/CO2. The torch looks pretty good and I can feel flow coming out but I would also like to get a gas lens eventually.

Re: Bad tungsten causing sparks and porosity on mild steel?

Originally Posted by Mach_Zero

Good idea. I suppose it also can be intermittent issues with argon coverage. Maybe when I switch out the tungsten it shifted the collet to a better position?

I have a couple new collets on the way but I haven't ordered a collet body. I figured the body has more mass and doesn't wear as quickly and the thin collets. Should I upgrade? Those wedge collets from CK look interesting.

True collets wear out faster than collet bodies. But these standard ones are crap. I had trouble with them for both AC and DC work, so I upgraded to gas lens and collets.

You could also have a bad torch. Loosen the back cap slightly, pull the front end parts, and see if the back cap chocks off the gas port. If good reassemble, pull out the back cap, tungsten, and collet and look in to see if the collet body is choking off the gas port. Ideally the gas port would be right in between the back cap and collet body. I the collet is twisted, bulged, or smashed it could allow the back cap to move forward and choke off the gas. Also check the back cap for good o-ring, and no holes in the body.