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Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

Originally Posted by ronsii

There are no requirements for a spammer

Oh, you mean like ForsythMary?

Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

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Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

It is simple a stick welder needs 50 amps 240 volt.
Most MIG for most work up to 1/4" only uses 20 amps 240 volt.
Still if putting line I would use 50 amps 240 volts plugs for both.
Remember you can only use one at time. So 50 amps is all you need for all.

Dave

Originally Posted by jd442

Hi, new to welding here. Looking into purchasing my first welder. My two choices are Miller mulitmatic 215 or ESAB Rebel 215ic. I wanted to know the requirements for the electrical panel. I dont have many open spots in the panel.. I have 200amp service to the house. I wanted to have an outlet put in the garage.

My question is what size circuit breaker do i need? I see in the documentation it says a NEMA Type 6−50P. Does that mean it needs to be a 50amp breaker? I thought I read somewhere 30amp breaker.
What wire gauge size would I need? Not sure if I will run the line myself or have an electrician do it, but I do need to know what to ask for.


Also, any recommendation over the Miller 215 or the Esab Rebel 215? I want to use it for fixing things around the house. Probably some stick welding and repairing a small aluminum boat using a spool gun.

Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

Originally Posted by Robb M.

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Looking good.

Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

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Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

Myself personally if installing a 6-50 50 amp welding outlet I would use #6 and if the machine didn't need a 50 amp use a 30 instead but the rest of the job is only a breaker change away from delivering 50 amps if needed in the future.

Originally Posted by billragston

You might need to contact electricians Hawthorne to properly protect your shop for shorts that may happen from welding. It consumes big amount of power.

That is comical. And your electricians. OK !!! LMAO !!!

A little 215 welder doesn't consume big amounts of power and welding doesn't cause shorts in the electrical system unless you seriously have screwed it up.

Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

You might need to contact electricians Hawthorne to properly protect your shop for shorts that may happen from welding. It consumes big amount of power.

Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

I was in one, they were going to get some maintenance people, they would train them in a week. This is college boys know most everything that said this. I asked, where was the electrician, the guy points to a chart on the wall, says there he is. They didn't have one, guy running this doent know that. Yes, I been in the places, I was really a drop out. got tired of being talked to like I was stupid by mba types running it in to the ground.

Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

Originally Posted by Sberry

There is a guy named David Todd Geaslin from Texas has a good take on this and has courses expressively for management types who need to get a grip on the real cost of defered maintenance. Says most of them got the math wrong.

This facility is unbelievable! I accuse the employees of being able to break a cannon ball. They have fast turnover of employees. Two of three shifts, they are unsupervised. I believe there is some drug use at night. There is at least some damned careless behavior.

I have had some cases where they claim the required disconnect switch for a machine "tripped" I explain there is no mechanism to trip. It is only a manual operated switch intended to turn off while working on the machine.

Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

There is a guy named David Todd Geaslin from Texas has a good take on this and has courses expressively for management types who need to get a grip on the real cost of defered maintenance. Says most of them got the math wrong.

Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

If you study code, 90% is protecting it from harm.

I was this afternoon at a manufacturing facility I work at often. The wall of a storage building had been moved a foot by an inexperienced operator in a loader. Numerous conduits had been ripped out of place. Exposed individual conductors were visible in several places. They were exposed to weather on the outside of the building.

I was there for another reason. Nobody troubled themselves to call about this damage. If I hadn't been there to notice today it would have been ignored until it failed.

I carry the safety card. I can insist on a repair management would prefer to defer until a month from now, in the middle of the night it results in fire, or more probably, a machine won't work. Then they would call at 1:00 AM: "The feed screw won't work!"
I caught this one before failure. More often they wait for middle of the night failure.

I often point out failures only happen between 9:00PM and 5:00 AM. They chuckle.

There are no emergencies, only ignored warnings.

Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

Don't mean I know any electric some of these guys do, I just fit it up real neat like with a little do it twice till it looks right even on occasion but the **** looks like it belongs there. Wireman or installer I think more than real sparky at heart. My only interest is meeting some demand I need.

Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

I am a simple installer of the type of equipment I work on, easily confused by controls and 3 ways. I auint all that fascinated with electric as I think I should be which is partially the result of having help I can lean on. My interest is forensics and inspections, I wanna make sure it passes and complies, not an intertest when I started wiring and my install copy skills are good enough that a lo of people didn't know I didn't know.
What I thought I knew and understood is now what interests m due to the constant repeating nature of forums and where I really took an interest in code compliance. Some always told me was a poor way to learn and no one took the time to really splain some basic concepts I didn't fundamentally understand in both and including paint booth design, some plumbing concepts and basic AC wiring. I opened the book along with the forum and spent about a year on diy beating a guy to the answers. It finally clicked at a couple points and then it was practice till its a reflex. Not learnin nuthin new but practice till short circuit interruption was a reflex in circuit design and code compliance and ask a couple guys who finally splain it till I understand or at least to the level I can comply.

Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

Yes, doesn't surprise me a 300 tranny trips a 60, I was referring to 50 in machines. I have a Rigid chop saw routinely trips a 20, got a special circuit for it. Probably didn't help a lot my helper upsized the wire to a 10, no sag when it starts, really hammers on. Tossing in 25 ft of 16 cord helped a little back then but now its on 30 and it works, I have metered it, the thing can really spike. Only thing I owned that really ever tripped a breaker under common operation. Maybe a little compressor when it got plugged close to a panel.

Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

Melting alloy fuses are the fastest acting I've dealt with. Circuit breakers, less so.
Welders aren't actually doing work when you turn them on. Motors are the worst. I have a number of 15 and 16 amp power tools. They routinely blow a 20 amp breaker the instant of start up.

I don't believe inverters have much inrush at all. Transformers less than motors. I used to use a lot of 5/32" SMAW rods, they'd blow a 60 amp breaker now & then. I figured time to let the welder & breaker cool. The Lincoln 300-300 Rated 60% duty cycle at 300 amps, but capable of well over 400 amps would trip a 60 every start up.

Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

One thing to remember the minimum wire sizes are single circuit in pipe, a cable needs a size larger. With the Esab,,, it would be limited to 30 with a "13" wire (here the Hobarts and others list 14/30, if it was 12 in pipe or 10 cable could use a 50, same as a buzzer.
BTW, never had a 50 welder trip a 50. Had one trip a 40 once ironically at lower current running nickel. Never had one trip up throwing the switch on. Used a lot of them over decades, first 10 years must have used a hundred different machines.

Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

Originally Posted by Sberry

I understand this but is it clear to the diy that reads it? The "13" wire it lists is only good for 30A, with a larger wire it is allowed on up to 50.

Never seen #13 wire. I'd guess you have to use #12.

As for DIY: Everything I've ever seen avoids telling people how to do it. NEC code handbook is thousands of pages. It lists millions of rules, not a paragraph of how to do it in the book! I feel if people are going to do it themselves anyway, I prefer they do it more safely, not less. Someday I may get sued for somebody taking my advice, but it hasn't happened yet.

Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

I admire Willies fine mind for electric, years ahead of mine, I will never get there.

Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

The 255 will certainly tolerate a 60, the only pRobles is other machines may use the same outlet, machines limited to 50A. To the other poster,, this is a little about what I was getting at. Your machine that comes with a 50 end is legal on a 50 circuit. A 20 or 30 is the Max when used with the minimum wire size. On a larger wire,,,, one able to support short circuit it's legal to use on 50. It comes with 50 end, if it was limited to 20 or 30 would come with those ends.
The instructions are written for electricians, the manuals really need a lay section due to diy on these small machines.

Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

NEC 630.12(A) Overcurrent protection shall be not more than 200% of I1max. If I1max is not given, 200% of rated primary current of the welder.

Sometimes there is no standard available overcurrent device at 200%. If the next smaller overcurrent device results in unnecessary nuisance tripping, it can be upgraded to the next higher available device.

I have never seen nuisance tripping much higher than I1max, or rated input. A 60 amp I1max, or rated primary, I would begin with a 60 amp breaker. I've never powered a NEMA 6-50 receptacle with more than a 60 amp breaker, or smaller wire than #6 copper.
The Lincoln big as a refrigerator in my garage is hard wired with #2, and 100 amp breaker.

Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

You find most welder use 6-50 plug.
I have welder that came with 6-50 plug and needs 20 amp breaker.

Now wiring for a new welder , run for 50 amps and 6-50R even need smaller breaker, it save money later.

Dave

Originally Posted by jd442

Hi, new to welding here. Looking into purchasing my first welder. My two choices are Miller mulitmatic 215 or ESAB Rebel 215ic. I wanted to know the requirements for the electrical panel. I dont have many open spots in the panel.. I have 200amp service to the house. I wanted to have an outlet put in the garage.

My question is what size circuit breaker do i need? I see in the documentation it says a NEMA Type 6−50P. Does that mean it needs to be a 50amp breaker? I thought I read somewhere 30amp breaker.
What wire gauge size would I need? Not sure if I will run the line myself or have an electrician do it, but I do need to know what to ask for.


Also, any recommendation over the Miller 215 or the Esab Rebel 215? I want to use it for fixing things around the house. Probably some stick welding and repairing a small aluminum boat using a spool gun.

Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

I understand this but is it clear to the diy that reads it? The "13" wire it lists is only good for 30A, with a larger wire it is allowed on up to 50.

Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

Originally Posted by Sberry

That chart is kind of interesting. Note the 2 different max ocpd ratings,, ha. I bet that's confusing to more than one diy type, maybe even some pros.

Not at all. Basic fuses, circuit breakers are suggested at one rating. For those pushing the limits, using the full limits of permission in code there is another value.

If a over current protective device is too fast acting it might trip under inrush current. A device slower to react won't trip quick enough to react to inrush.

Magnetic loads are limited in current by magnetic impedence. At the instant they are turned on, there is no magnetic field, no magnetic impedence. Current, measured in amperes, will skyrocket until magnetic field builds.

The infinite variables in how fast a OCPD reacts dictate the rating needed to get past the first 1/4 second.

NEC gives permission for welders to try it out. If a Over Current Protective Device trips under normal load, you are allowed to increase rating incrementally to a complicated limit.

Reality is, inverter welders will perform at near their maximum output with a breaker sized at their max input.

Depending on the speed the fuse or breaker reacts, a transformer based welder might trip instantly before load is applied, just from inrush.

Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

Originally Posted by jd442

Here are the electrical specs for the ESAB I found:

Attachment 1706930

That chart is kind of interesting. Note the 2 different max ocpd ratings,, ha. I bet that's confusing to more than one diy type, maybe even some pros.

Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

I own the ESAB Rebel 215ic, bought it when it first came out, it's a great machine. I use it mostly for MIG and flux core for 14g - 1/2 in steel. It runs fine off of 20 amp circuit for 14 ga, anything heavier I run it off my generator. I upgraded to the Rebel from the ESAB miniarc 161, which was a fantastic machine if you just want to do just stick welding, at 1/3 the cost of the Rebel. But since upgrading to the Rebel I've only used the stick welding function 1 time and that was to burn holes in thick metal. For thinner gauge metal like 14-11 ga, I find it much easier to get quality welds with MIG/Flux core.

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