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Re: Business owners.

Originally Posted by EdinStops

what do you mean

I doubt you will get a response, as you are asking about a post from almost 4 years ago. Gina (gmt) hasn't been back since the site crashed and was rebuilt a couple years ago

Re: Business owners.

Originally Posted by Kevin Morin

In the 1970's (late that decade) I began to provide welded aluminum boats to our local area in the N to S 'middle' of Cook Inlet in S.Central Alaska. Most of my skiffs were set net skiffs for the Kasilof and Kenai river beaches on the East side of the Inlet.

In my first few orders I learned some pretty costly lessons that can be translated to other businesses and have to do with business terms of an order for services or one-off built welded products.

Commercial fishermen as a group are small businessmen and women who're working against seasonal fluctuations of weather, fish migration, market pricing and some other factors all adding up to a bit of a gamble of success where that is defined by making a profit in a given seasons' fishing.

One model of preparation is to rely on the 'cannery' or fish buyer/processor for 'interim' or gear-up money. In this the cannery is a bank that lends the fisherman money to get ready to fish and then buys their fish and settles any finance balance at the end of the season.

This might be like a local bank helping to buy feed, seed or stock for a farmer in the flat, middle states?

In this case I'd not been involved in selling boats so I didn't realize the fishermen who ordered welded skiffs would expect me to wait to be paid until they'd been paid - so they (often) expected to order a skiff, have it built (fall to winter) and then take delivery in the spring, and not pay for what I'd done for up to 10 months!!!

They assumed that I'd be their bank like the cannery was, and I expected they'd pay for their skiffs when they were done in the fall or winter months.

That kind of miscommunications can happen if we don't make sure we have high quality communications and a well drawn contract and I'd even advocate learning about "Sharp Clauses" in a work order/contract/ service agreement.

The first year I got stuck with a huge bill of consumables, materials and labour, rent and all... and had to go back to welding by the hour in the oilfield because of poorly written "contracts"!

From then on, I used a contract with sharp clauses that they signed paragraph by paragraph, individually. These specified that if I was not paid in full with in 10 business days of the date of notification, and a local, legal, legit contact was required - no out of state addresses- always a cannery, lawyer, or family member (who had to agree in writing to the contract) :The entire 50% deposit was forfeit AND the money in the deposit, and the skiff(!) became mine.

I know this sounds drastic, but that was what I had to do to keep from being an involuntary 'bank' for my customers due to their habits of relying on their canneries to finance their businesses!

So, while I understand these weren't common circumstances; a small fab shop should begin to understand that those customers you don't get when they read such a contract are customers you don't want!

After I began using this contract where a client paid regardless if they took delivery for another few months? 95% of my cash flow problems evaporated, and local cannery offices paid promptly after visiting the shop and seeing the skiffs ready to fish.

If someone find those terms unreasonable? they've labelled themselves - not you.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK

Not drastic at all. If you work is sound and your reputation solid, then a level of respect is given to you. I live on the premise that the customer needs me more than I need them, so they better not cross me.

Re: Business owners.

In the 1970's (late that decade) I began to provide welded aluminum boats to our local area in the N to S 'middle' of Cook Inlet in S.Central Alaska. Most of my skiffs were set net skiffs for the Kasilof and Kenai river beaches on the East side of the Inlet.

In my first few orders I learned some pretty costly lessons that can be translated to other businesses and have to do with business terms of an order for services or one-off built welded products.

Commercial fishermen as a group are small businessmen and women who're working against seasonal fluctuations of weather, fish migration, market pricing and some other factors all adding up to a bit of a gamble of success where that is defined by making a profit in a given seasons' fishing.

One model of preparation is to rely on the 'cannery' or fish buyer/processor for 'interim' or gear-up money. In this the cannery is a bank that lends the fisherman money to get ready to fish and then buys their fish and settles any finance balance at the end of the season.

This might be like a local bank helping to buy feed, seed or stock for a farmer in the flat, middle states?

In this case I'd not been involved in selling boats so I didn't realize the fishermen who ordered welded skiffs would expect me to wait to be paid until they'd been paid - so they (often) expected to order a skiff, have it built (fall to winter) and then take delivery in the spring, and not pay for what I'd done for up to 10 months!!!

They assumed that I'd be their bank like the cannery was, and I expected they'd pay for their skiffs when they were done in the fall or winter months.

That kind of miscommunications can happen if we don't make sure we have high quality communications and a well drawn contract and I'd even advocate learning about "Sharp Clauses" in a work order/contract/ service agreement.

The first year I got stuck with a huge bill of consumables, materials and labour, rent and all... and had to go back to welding by the hour in the oilfield because of poorly written "contracts"!

From then on, I used a contract with sharp clauses that they signed paragraph by paragraph, individually. These specified that if I was not paid in full with in 10 business days of the date of notification, and a local, legal, legit contact was required - no out of state addresses- always a cannery, lawyer, or family member (who had to agree in writing to the contract) :The entire 50% deposit was forfeit AND the money in the deposit, and the skiff(!) became mine.

I know this sounds drastic, but that was what I had to do to keep from being an involuntary 'bank' for my customers due to their habits of relying on their canneries to finance their businesses!

So, while I understand these weren't common circumstances; a small fab shop should begin to understand that those customers you don't get when they read such a contract are customers you don't want!

After I began using this contract where a client paid regardless if they took delivery for another few months? 95% of my cash flow problems evaporated, and local cannery offices paid promptly after visiting the shop and seeing the skiffs ready to fish.

If someone find those terms unreasonable? they've labelled themselves - not you.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK

Re: Business owners.

Originally Posted by John T

Im void of deliberations.

I get stuck with endless repetitions of the guitar solo from the last song I heard before I close the coffin lid.

No steely dan please ...
La La La La ...

In my case they don't begin until 2 or three AM, then whatever stupid song I last heard runs through my brain. Often until daylight.

Re: Business owners.

Originally Posted by psacustomcreations

I wish. At least then it would be clear what they wanted. This one was a doozy


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My theory: Some old ladies are lonely & bored. I doubt they only intend to waste my time, or drive me crazy. I do believe there is no chance I could please them.

Re: Business owners.

Originally Posted by OPUS FERRO

You can't sleep - because your 'daily deliberations' are scrolling through your mind . . .

Opus

Im void of deliberations.

I get stuck with endless repetitions of the guitar solo from the last song I heard before I close the coffin lid.

No steely dan please ...
La La La La ...

Re: Business owners.

Originally Posted by ronsii

Does it involve western union money orders? and refunding the difference? [emoji23]

I wish. At least then it would be clear what they wanted. This one was a doozy


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Re: Business owners.

Originally Posted by psacustomcreations

I was going through something this week that still has not completely ended. I have received eight text messages and an email from them and I am still not sure what they want from me. I have stopped responding.

Does it involve western union money orders? and refunding the difference?

Re: Business owners.

I was going through something this week that still has not completely ended. I have received eight text messages and an email from them and I am still not sure what they want from me. I have stopped responding.

Re: Business owners.

Originally Posted by Willie B

This year it has been near impossible to get generators. Orders are backed up months. The unavailability of generators seems to have made people obsessed to have them.
One elderly lady inquired. She has a home phone, no computer. She hasn't left her home since Covid began. She is phobic about Covid!

When I went to look at her house it wasn't where she gave directions to. I ultimately asked a neighbor, he directed me to her house, not even on the right road. Her house is feet away from Route 30, on a sharp corner. Traffic noise is incredible! She shouted from the porch "Don't come any closer! I'm terrified of Covid!"

Can't call her from the lawn, no cell service. Her dog barked endlessly, traffic noise drowned out most conversation. I spent 1-1/2 hour discussing where I could place a generator acceptable to her. No acceptable site was found. She found it ugly, and didn't want it anywhere she had any risk of seeing it. I was relieved, I knew this was going to be a difficult customer.

A dozen half hour phone calls later & warning her it'll be a 12 to 15 week wait for delivery, she ordered the generator. I explained that I wasn't going to order it until I received her deposit. She insisted I order that day. Ultimately, she sent the check rush postal delivery.

A week later, she's demanding to know why it hadn't arrived. I explained the projected delivery date again. She must have called me 20 times over the next 10 weeks, upset about no generator yet. Meanwhile she was feuding with her gas supplier/installer. I believe they had put her on a nutcase list.

At 10 weeks, she called. She couldn't wait any longer, and the gas installer needed an exact date to install gas. This was too much for her, she was cancelling the order.

I sent her a check to refund her deposit. She hasn't cashed it.

I know I haven't heard the last of her. One day she will be on the phone demanding to pick up where we left off.

I’ve had more than a few of “those customers” over my lifetime. I’m not even gonna go there as they were so aggravating I have since moved on. [emoji23]

Thanks for posting that story Wille. It was a good reminder of what I don’t miss. [emoji481]


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Re: Business owners.

Originally Posted by T man

Been working for myself for over 15 years.

Biggest fear was coming across a lunatic, but not knowing it until I was either already into the job, or had just finished the job. Fear does eventually come true, but if you can handle it, then it makes you a better contractor down the line. Nutjob ladies can make you crazy.

Trust your senses. Same nutjob lady called me last year about a door install. Said that I thought it would be best to wait till this year. She said nothing. Thought she was just a nutjob that didn't need me to to the work for her, and found someone else for cheaper.

about 1.5 months ago, I get an email asking me to proceed with the job.. I go to her house, contract in hand for the stated dollar amount we discussed the year before, and before she signs it, she starts to complain that she felt that the amount I was charging her didn't work out in her head. She couldn't understand why there was extra fees for extra work.... DUH !

I said to her, "Okay, can I have the contract back, and I'll be on my way. I'm sure you can find a qualified contractor to do the job". She balked, and signed the contract while stating that she couldn't find anyone else to do the job.

I should trust my SPIDEY Senses by now, and they were tingling, but I didn't think it was gonna go awry. It did,.... luckily, after I got paid.

She hounded me the entire time on the job. As I was finishing up, she comes to the window and says " I have to leave now, and I don't know when I'm coming back. I have to take my neighbor to the hospital".

I tell her, I'm finishing up now, can you leave me a check. I'll leave the paperwork behind, and you can sign the invoice, and mail it back to me.

The next day, I get a Text message. No not a phone call, a text message.

She says that shes "SOBBING HYSTERICALLY", as the door doesn't look as good as it should.


After replying back to her "so this is how you're going to address this? " I had to go back and make an adjustment to the door to please her "picky-ness". I went back, did what she asked, and she was all happy again...

Sobbing hysterically ???? Over a door install ? Really ?

Hope you don't get cancer, you loon..

You will, eventually, come across NUTTY PEOPLE. Some of them you can meet on any web forum

This year it has been near impossible to get generators. Orders are backed up months. The unavailability of generators seems to have made people obsessed to have them.
One elderly lady inquired. She has a home phone, no computer. She hasn't left her home since Covid began. She is phobic about Covid!

When I went to look at her house it wasn't where she gave directions to. I ultimately asked a neighbor, he directed me to her house, not even on the right road. Her house is feet away from Route 30, on a sharp corner. Traffic noise is incredible! She shouted from the porch "Don't come any closer! I'm terrified of Covid!"

Can't call her from the lawn, no cell service. Her dog barked endlessly, traffic noise drowned out most conversation. I spent 1-1/2 hour discussing where I could place a generator acceptable to her. No acceptable site was found. She found it ugly, and didn't want it anywhere she had any risk of seeing it. I was relieved, I knew this was going to be a difficult customer.

A dozen half hour phone calls later & warning her it'll be a 12 to 15 week wait for delivery, she ordered the generator. I explained that I wasn't going to order it until I received her deposit. She insisted I order that day. Ultimately, she sent the check rush postal delivery.

A week later, she's demanding to know why it hadn't arrived. I explained the projected delivery date again. She must have called me 20 times over the next 10 weeks, upset about no generator yet. Meanwhile she was feuding with her gas supplier/installer. I believe they had put her on a nutcase list.

At 10 weeks, she called. She couldn't wait any longer, and the gas installer needed an exact date to install gas. This was too much for her, she was cancelling the order.

I sent her a check to refund her deposit. She hasn't cashed it.

I know I haven't heard the last of her. One day she will be on the phone demanding to pick up where we left off.

Re: Business owners.

In the 1980s a rich New York NY woman who happened to be Jewish, and was very vocal about having the personality of her stereotype. She was LOUD, foul mouthed, pushy, demanding, and a total fool about decisions. She chain smoked cigars.

Small towns where the highway has moved away from Main street decline. Danby, and adjacent Mount Tabor are little towns of 1200 people combined. Much of the history of the towns involves a man who was a spoiled rich kid in 1865. Mount Tabor had been a ghost town owing to rail road ROWs and a taxpayer revolt as residents refused to pay for a railroad most wouldn't be able to benefit from, but would bring prosperity to Danby. The Civil War policy of taking every able bodied man on the same day, then left Mount Tabor farms with no workers. Only a few returned.

Ultimately, the Town auctioned the land in a tax seizure. 25 year old Silas Griffith used family money to buy 21,000 acres for the price of $1,100, about $.05 per acre. He stripped the mountain, made many products, lumber, charcoal, bark for tanneries, potash, and others. By his death in 1903, he owned 200,000 acres.

Annie Rothman fell in love with the man who died 85 years earlier, and set out to own all the buildings he had once owned. Her first decision was to hire the former town drunk as her advisor. He, being a reformed drunk, strongly favored the hiring of other reformed drunks, and addicts. A few sub contractors weren't drunks, but the full time staff of 15 had all been. With a few exceptions, their qualification was limited to recovering from alcoholism. Some of the worst carpentry I've ever seen was done there. One 3000 square foot house she claimed to have spent $1,000,000 renovating, including some of the most overpriced foundation work, fell in the river 24 years later, and was totally destroyed.

Working for Annie was DIFFICULT. I've said, after Annie, everybody else is easy. My illustration of a sheet metal ceiling in a Victorian great room. The embossed ceiling panels were brought from New York. She wanted a mix of track, recessed, and a huge chandelier. Six times she insisted on a complete rearrangement of the lighting. New panels were ordered, and the copper nails were drilled out to avoid damage to overlapping panels.

I used to kid her; "Lady, as long as the money holds out, there's no such thing as a problem!" She would respond with an obscenity and walk away.

Re: Business owners.

Been working for myself for over 15 years.

Biggest fear was coming across a lunatic, but not knowing it until I was either already into the job, or had just finished the job. Fear does eventually come true, but if you can handle it, then it makes you a better contractor down the line. Nutjob ladies can make you crazy.

Trust your senses. Same nutjob lady called me last year about a door install. Said that I thought it would be best to wait till this year. She said nothing. Thought she was just a nutjob that didn't need me to to the work for her, and found someone else for cheaper.

about 1.5 months ago, I get an email asking me to proceed with the job.. I go to her house, contract in hand for the stated dollar amount we discussed the year before, and before she signs it, she starts to complain that she felt that the amount I was charging her didn't work out in her head. She couldn't understand why there was extra fees for extra work.... DUH !

I said to her, "Okay, can I have the contract back, and I'll be on my way. I'm sure you can find a qualified contractor to do the job". She balked, and signed the contract while stating that she couldn't find anyone else to do the job.

I should trust my SPIDEY Senses by now, and they were tingling, but I didn't think it was gonna go awry. It did,.... luckily, after I got paid.

She hounded me the entire time on the job. As I was finishing up, she comes to the window and says " I have to leave now, and I don't know when I'm coming back. I have to take my neighbor to the hospital".

I tell her, I'm finishing up now, can you leave me a check. I'll leave the paperwork behind, and you can sign the invoice, and mail it back to me.

The next day, I get a Text message. No not a phone call, a text message.

She says that shes "SOBBING HYSTERICALLY", as the door doesn't look as good as it should.


After replying back to her "so this is how you're going to address this? " I had to go back and make an adjustment to the door to please her "picky-ness". I went back, did what she asked, and she was all happy again...

Sobbing hysterically ???? Over a door install ? Really ?

Hope you don't get cancer, you loon..

You will, eventually, come across NUTTY PEOPLE. Some of them you can meet on any web forum

Re: Business owners.

Originally Posted by Willie B

I pay my bills by providing electrical expertise. My field is one where every sixth grade graduate believes himself to be my equal. Three people a week on average tell me about their expertise with electricity. The fact is: I have no loyal customers. Repeat customers believe that in some way, I provide more value than others. I did nearly all electrical work for 19 years for one builder. The last summer was insanely busy. I notified him that the second full week of August, I would be going on vacation with my wife, and sons. As the weeks elapsed, he surprised me with one after another jobs not fitting into the schedule. I knocked myself out, but was proud that I kept up with the work load. On the Thursday late in the day I was soon to leave on vacation he announced he was going to gut a house on Sunday. I could have the week to rewire. I reminded him I would be away, (it had often come up in conversation). He chuckled: "Go on vacation when there is no work to do". I responded that my wife is a teacher, this is the last week she can go. These were immensely fussy homeowners, they were not planning to live elsewhere while their house was under construction. Leaving them in a gutted house for a week while no progress was made would be unthinkable. "You'll be here" he responded. That was 12 years ago.

He hasn't asked me to do a job for him since. NEVER COUNT ON LOYALTY FROM YOUR CUSTOMERS!

Willie

Wow what a jacka$$

Re: Business owners.

I have 2 huge jobs going up in the next couple months. 60k#s of steel in between the 2. Going to be the 2 biggest jobs I've ever done.

One is a structural job, residential house, 43 columns, 63 beams

The other is huge outdoor Trellis, 80'x20' and 20'x20'

Re: Business owners.

If your married you have a (partner), not just to help take care of the house hold, but to help out with small things if you need ( like bring you the drill and bolts you left on the shop floor and forgot to put in the truck. So you wouldn't waste two hours picking everything up to get it yourself ).


This can make you or break you. If you have a mate that is unable or unwilling to help you it will be twice as hard to accomplish anything. If you have a wife that does nothing but complain and will not life a finger to help I suggest you forget about a business.

Re: Business owners.

If your thinking of going in business for yourself, you have to have your head screwed on straight and think about a few things.

You will be everything from the owner to the janitor, so keep this in mind.

Everything will be on your shoulders, so as Clint Eastwood would say (you have to know your limitations).

If your married you have a (partner), not just to help take care of the house hold, but to help out with small things if you need ( like bring you the drill and bolts you left on the shop floor and forgot to put in the truck. So you wouldn't waste two hours picking everything up to get it yourself ).

And as stated keeping good records, saving everything, writing it down, save it in your phone etc.

There is a lot more to it then just raking in the money.

Re: Business owners.

Ill go ahead and throw this out there. In business, the saying, "its not what you know but WHO you know" is very true. Networking, is huge

Re: Business owners.

I have worked for myself for years, not doing welding, but as a contractor doing marketing and corp comm and as an adjunct college English professor. I went back to corporate two years because I found a place I love, but I still teach on the side. I also edit papers, manuscripts, etc.

Re: Business owners.

Originally Posted by Louie1961

Number one rule of business, to me, being a CPA is keep records. You can't figure out your true costs without records, and you can't maximize your deductions without records. You don't need a shoe box of receipts either, but that will do. You can always snap pictures of your receipts with your phone and store them digitally in the cloud with something like Evernote or OneNote. Heck you can even do it with quickbooks on your smartphone now too. Keep track of all the miles you drive too.

This is so important, in now starting to keep good records

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Re: Business owners.

Originally Posted by dosswelding

Not really a question, just wanting to talk about it so i can draw a conclusion for myself and see if I'm on the right path for me or not.

It has always been my mentality that a business must grow and evolve to survive?
Well ive been doing my share of both here lately and it scares the hell out of me and gives me a thrill at the same time . So what I'm asking from the experienced people is , does an average exist or is their "sweet" spot anyone has found on how "big" to grow a business? Many , many variables to consider, what are some pros and cons of remaining a small one , sometimes 2 man operation , versus letting this thing continue to grow .

I think the answer to this is greatly dependent on your life goals, feelings on risk, desired standard of living, ability to handle stress, etc. I've been the foreman of a welding shop before, and that convinced me that I NEVER wanted to deal with employees again. So for me, I'm set on figuring out ways to maximize profitability within the confines of what I can do by myself. There is definitely a bright line beyond which you need to majorly invest to go to the next level in any business, whether it involves computerization, opening a first or second brick-and-mortar location, hiring back office personnel, etc.

I think maximum profitability for any particular business size is probably just a little ways before that bright line has to be crossed, the very definition of "doing more with less," which I HATED to hear when I was an employee. I HATED to run old equipment, to do things by hand that were done more efficiently with a certain machine that we didn't have, etc. But there is often a whole range of things that need to be upgraded at the same time to move to the next level in a business, and that's something I didn't understand at the time. Once you buy all that stuff, then you're stretched thin financially while you get things up to speed at your new level of productivity. Then you reach an efficient point and go beyond it before you reach the next bright line where you MUST spend more money.

One ace in the hole that I have is that while welding is my primary income provider, I have other skills that are often needed on the same sites, and I'm actively listening to what my customers want (as in vendors or service suppliers), and running this stuff through my head to see if it'd be something I should pursue.

Finally, a previous poster mentioned something akin to keeping your work recession-proof. That's something I also have worked toward, and very few of my current customers are going to have much trouble in a downturn.

One nice thing about welding is that it's basically a brainless activity. You get TONS of time to think about stuff like this while you're burning rods or wire.

Re: Business owners.

If I responded to every request for a bid I could easily spend 50 hours a week. In the same sense that I don't buy lottery tickets, or patronize casinos, I try very hard to avoid gambling on bids. It is an inexact science to figure out how serious a potential customer might be. The customer wanting to know how much to budget is to get some leeway. The bargain hunter soliciting bids from six or more providers I can't be bothered. I want to provide a quality job, undercutting all the competition will not serve that goal.

Recently a wholesaler had an event to find the fastest electrician. A lady employee there encouraged me to compete. I replied that speed was not my thing. "Well, your son might be fastest" she replied. "He better not be!" was my comeback.

A big majority of electrical fires are associated with arcing. Almost all arcing is the result of shortcut workmanship. I don't want the person who packs my parachute to be the fastest. I wouldn't want my electrician to be fastest either.

Willie

Re: Business owners.

Willie b , i agree in my few years of experience running a business is like a pinball bouncing in a triangle . The three points of the triangle are getting the work i have in front of me done , finding work to do next week and lastly collecting for work that is completed. The "bigger" you are the faster the ball will haft to bounce between the three points in the triangle.
If something happens to break the triangle while playing a big wheel it is hard to get it going again before the other two points of the triangle catch you and put you under.
I am learning this lesson at the moment while playing the game of growing a business and i have realized i need to increase my operating capital by another 10k of money in the bank at all times to cover the unexpected if I'm gonna continue to take the work I'm taking at the moment. Learning lessons come hard and quick running a business, good credit is a must for anyone planning to start a business, cash flow will always be a concern, a person must always keep plan b for when that big check don't come on time.

Camjeep3 , i have learned their is no 100% guarantee in anything. But there are certain things a person can do to protect themselves against times of downfall . The biggest thing is to live well within a person's means and save save save . Also i don't know how it will work and i hope i dont ever haft to find out if it will work. But i have been pushing my business towards public utilities such as power , water and sewer , because in a poor economy infrastructure will be the last thing to go . Hopefully this plan can keep me going thru hard times , even if i have to scale back it hopefully wont be a total loss .

Re: Business owners.

Originally Posted by dosswelding

Not really a question, just wanting to talk about it so i can draw a conclusion for myself and see if I'm on the right path for me or not.

It has always been my mentality that a business must grow and evolve to survive?
Well ive been doing my share of both here lately and it scares the hell out of me and gives me a thrill at the same time . So what I'm asking from the experienced people is , does an average exist or is their "sweet" spot anyone has found on how "big" to grow a business? Many , many variables to consider, what are some pros and cons of remaining a small one , sometimes 2 man operation , versus letting this thing continue to grow .

I Think it depends... It will eventually come to a point where you would have to make a BIG jump to take the next step. Are you wanting t otake the risk, or stay where you are.
As an example, I know a guy who owns a machine shop. started in his garage by himself, grew into a probably 8k sq foot shop 10-15 guys. THings slowed down, so he downsized, now works in a home shop with 2-3 others. still very successful at that scale.
I know another machinist who has a 2-3 man shop. He could probably hire 3-4 more guys and keep them busy, but. He doesn't want to.

Re: Business owners.

In my case I have always had a fear of growing too big. My father ran a two man operation, I ran one man 20 years. Fact is those were more profitable years. I put in longer hours, didn't find time to spend money. My son joined me, two households to support, more down time between billable times. Customers who pay slow are my biggest hardship. Collecting my money is a big part of my world.

Willie