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Re: 120 Volt Welder user data

Here one found a 120/240 welder
https://www.ebay.com/itm/120A-MIG-We...-127632-2357-0

Dave

Re: 120 Volt Welder user data

My helper at the time who knows more about this kind if thing than most people do used 10 on my chop saw circuit. I had intended on 12. Whrn measured can really see the rush and rise under heavy load
I prolly dont know what the real deal is but it sure delivered
Agree about some current limit effect. We usef to put 25 ft 16 on it to reduce breaker trips. I use 50x14 on my little comp for roofing for same reason.

Re: 120 Volt Welder user data

The glass fuse shown is a 40 amp. It is a tiny element. Compare it to the strands inside a quality fine strand #10 wire. My point was if something is short enough a small size can carry a lot.

The cords on the welders are short. They do not need to be huge when limited to under 10 feet.

The smaller wire can also act as a buffer and reduce inrush so the circuit doesn't feel the hit as hard when you initiate the arc.

Don't take much to carry amps if it is short enough is the reason for showing relationship.

40 amp fuse / #10 wire comparison.

Re: 120 Volt Welder user data

Originally Posted by Sberry

What type of machine is connected?
So will it be at the end of these circuits.

A Miller, Sycrowave. They also have a Hobart ?230? Ironman. Both transformer welders.

Yeah, In this case not much loss at all getting to the service equipment, but long run to the far corner of the building.

Were this an inverter, it'd adjust to lost voltage, compensating with increased amperage, which increases voltage loss.

Re: 120 Volt Welder user data

i admire guys that really know electric. I dont know simple stuff and am confused by more thn a couple 3 wires and simply have my helper do the 3 ways and the relays. The man could live from a 16 extension cord as the absolute master of using only 1 thing at a time.

Re: 120 Volt Welder user data

The 252 will really burn. I used one needed a 400 gun on it, 045 spray and it really doing some welding. Its a listed 8 wire machine. 60% at rated and it will run way beyond that. I was hoping to see Willie got his fixed, that thing should really fly. Mine never jamb. And that should be even better machine. I would certainly trade the one I have never runs a roll of wire right till the last few ft then its time to start over. Miller had a couple 250 that were kind of crappy and this red was the last of the dial machines, the push button didnt help me a lot at the time and was 300$ more. I didnt know any better, should have traded it when it was new but shopping isnt what it is today.
Dealers were 1 branded. I bought from the guy in town and he sold that color. Earlier machines were really good.

Re: 120 Volt Welder user data

One is fed with10 feet of #8
The other is fed with 160 feet of #4

What type of machine is connected?

Voltage loss at the panels is negligible

So will it be at the end of these circuits.

Re: 120 Volt Welder user data

My point is NOT that there isnt v drop, that its not important. And its not that a guy shouldnt use enough wire. I am saying not every welding circuit has to be a number 6 to be safe or work proper. We dont even need a 50 breaker anymore for so many machines.
Had a guy here a while back looking for a 100 ft 6 cord so he can weld something tinkering at the end of his driveway.
When I point out that that might not be a fact I get the response like I am on a mission to burn the guys place down. I am suggesting there is a mifddle, yes a few guys but they dont need splainin can wring the guts out of a 250 with a 400 gun and special gas but Joe in his burbs cant do it and aint 100 ft from the panel, in the event he sells his 375 plasma and his new multimatic and gets a 300 synchro he can run another wire.
Todays machines allow modest service no reason not to run a convenience outlet to reduce cords, sometimes cord is the easy way. As for the what if,,,,, my sense of future proof is to use a number 10 at 30 for modern welders and doubt all the help it might give an older style machine might be useless today it is a convertable circuit. I never had to change one I had out to a 50 but it can, we had 50 before 30. We are never tripping them, never and simply figure reducing the fault current with cords cant hurt. I am not sure how much all this adds in safety, some engineer can and does calculate it for risk but it dont cost nothing much. I limited the current and enlarge the wire in a pipe with shared circuits.
I use 2 circuits 10/50 some but out of the 75 ft allowable I am using 3 and got a couple true 50 I never use seemed like a good idea simply remove a couple in the last remodel but have 1 at the main and 25 ft cord if I need.

Re: 120 Volt Welder user data

I also understand the point about $ loss, I really do . My only pov about that is it is not as much a reality as the worry it seems to cause and the proof for lack of better wording is the mfg reccomendations which are really out there. If the distance is shortened, say from 75 to 40 ft or up a size and or shortened then the reality of it becoming a real problem really goes to the bottom of the list and crap installs without box connectors, missing bond links, incorrect breaker meaning,,, too big for the tool become more of an issue but they get very little press. Almost to the point of being non existant.
My first mentor was a voltage loss nut,,, turns out it was cause he didnt know anything about the rest of it. That statement does not apply to everyone but seems to be a collective theme so to speak.
There was a how 2 in farm show, I know a guy from there and I mention that the 20A 120 outlets wired to the buzzer welder cord was not an outstanding idea and should not be part of a "how to" . He said, got several calls about it but as important as the N conductor missing is the over current protection. Maybe he reasoned, 12 cord on welder, 12 on the recepts which wont cause a fire there but the grinder is not allowed on a 50 circuit.

Re: 120 Volt Welder user data

I installed a violation so to speak the other day. I was out of 2P20 and had a couple 30 so I put a 30 on a 12. I will replace it but at first glance a guy would say,,, this not right unless he followed it down and find out it went to 2 space panel with 20's in it. Might even be nearly legal under some tap rule, not exactly sure.
No outlets between to use, cant even add a breaker like you could to unprotected main lug service.

Re: 120 Volt Welder user data

I am not sure that is read right. I could be wrong here as its been a while and at one point did have it explained but seems it was 200% of the wire. We cant put 100A breaker on a 50 machine? At some future point this winter want to go over it again, I wanna understand clearly and not sure I do.
Can put a 50 on a 12 wire to a buzzer but if it trips we cant put 100 on it?
I also understand the cords being special, and agree if its getting that hot there is a problem. Totally agree that on other recepts all of it has to match. But to add to it there is another aspect to the matching and that is to insure (as much as thermal) maybe more,,, to limit short circuit. The focus seems always on overheating the wire but only in limited cases does the breaker do it,,,, but it must provide the short circuit.
Doesnt mean something that only needs 15A cant be plugged in to 30 but cant really simply chop the 15 end off and use new 30 end. As is mentioned in this thread,,, the machine will run from 30A, Forney says so, they really dont say how to deal with the code end issue but the cord is adequate for the machine.

Re: 120 Volt Welder user data

Originally Posted by Slowxj

Remember that wire has multiple amperage ranges though. 12 gauge is commonly thought of as 20 amp rated but it's actually muuuuch higher in its "open air rating" cheap number 12 has an open air amperage rating of 30 amps...
Also we all use 15 amp plugs on 20 amp circuits at home if there's more than 1 plug on that circuit... if it's 1 designated plug on the braker it must be rated for the full braker amperage

Sent from my SM-A426U using Tapatalk

What is on a factory installed cord with UL sticker doesn't have to follow code rules. Those cords are sized by laboratory tests to confirm the cord doesn't overheat in normal use. I saw some yesterday rated 125 degrees C. That is HOT! Plug configuration will be appropriate for nameplate rating.

A circuit with one receptacle needs an outlet matching the breaker size.
Wire must be at least rated for breaker size. 15 amp breaker is OK with #12 wire. 20 amp breaker with #14 is NOT OK.
A machine with 15 amp 240 volt male plug should NOT be plugged into a 30 amp circuit, regardless how many receptacles are on it.

The exception to these rules is a specific welder. Code gets complex here.
suggestions in code caution about voltage loss. In many cases wire size needs to be bumped up to limit voltage loss. This is not a code requirement, only a suggestion in code. Code suggests 5% TOTAL voltage loss, 7.4 volts for 240 volt power. I say the machine is likely designed for 230 volt supply, so 10 volt TOTAL loss will function well.

Then for welders, code allows a factor based on duty cycle A chart gives the multiplier to use. Size wire larger of the two calculations.
In example, I have a small industrial facility I wired in 2014 when it was built. It has three services, WYE 480/277 3 phase, Delta 240 3 phase, with a centertap yielding 208 and 120 Volt single phase, and a single phase service 240/120. Voltage loss at the panels is negligible. Opposite ends of the building, I have welder outlets for the same welder, a 50 amp primary transformer welder.
One is fed with10 feet of #8
The other is fed with 160 feet of #4

Both are supplied with 50 amp breakers. I haven't had complaints, so I haven't upped the breaker size. If I should have complaints code allows me to upgrade to up to 200%

I'm leaving out some text, read the code in your locality before proceeding.

Re: 120 Volt Welder user data

That problem with all electric panels.
You have to inspect panels ever few years.
All my wires are copper and the the buss bars are copper. The city did not permit aluminum in homes.
Lucky for me.

Dave

Originally Posted by danielplace

Yea of course you can leave the connections loose and melt any breaker/panel but irrelevant to Zinsco problems.

Zinsco is long gone as are the defective panels. The new breakers you can buy for the panel does not fix the problem.

The problem is in the panel itself. Nothing to do with anything you can tighten up. Not loose screws causing the meltdown.

Research and you will find it common knowledge of these panels issues and you usually can not buy insurance with these installed nowadays.

https://upgradedhome.com/are-zinsco-...l-panels-safe/

Re: 120 Volt Welder user data

Originally Posted by smithdoor

And still live on and they make new ones today.

Dave

I seen most brands melt down Buy it was no check to see electric screws where tie.
I check mine ever few years

Yea of course you can leave the connections loose and melt any breaker/panel but irrelevant to Zinsco problems.

Zinsco is long gone as are the defective panels. The new breakers you can buy for the panel does not fix the problem.

The problem is in the panel itself. Nothing to do with anything you can tighten up. Not loose screws causing the meltdown.

Research and you will find it common knowledge of these panels issues and you usually can not buy insurance with these installed nowadays.

https://upgradedhome.com/are-zinsco-...l-panels-safe/

Re: 120 Volt Welder user data

And still live on and they make new ones today.

Dave

I seen most brands melt down Buy it was no check to see electric screws where tie.
I check mine ever few years

Originally Posted by danielplace

Do you mean Zinsco ?
They are pretty much uninsurable these days. They are a latent fire hazard. Personally seen a few melt down.

Re: 120 Volt Welder user data

Originally Posted by smithdoor

That a good
Now my breaker box is Zenco

I gave on 120 welders in 2017 now only have 240 volt. I would like 120 v 20 amp makes life simpler.

Dave

Do you mean Zinsco ?
They are pretty much uninsurable these days. They are a latent fire hazard. Personally seen a few melt down.

Re: 120 Volt Welder user data

That a good
Now my breaker box is Zenco

I gave on 120 welders in 2017 now only have 240 volt. I would like 120 v 20 amp makes life simpler.

Dave

Originally Posted by Sberry

I put a piece in yesterday and should have taken a pic of the breaker, HAVR,,, maybe, I dont recall exact and SD uses I/Air I believe to describe it but they are not true fast acting, not the same as really old ones, they did add some delay to them.

Re: 120 Volt Welder user data

I put a piece in yesterday and should have taken a pic of the breaker, HAVR,,, maybe, I dont recall exact and SD uses I/Air I believe to describe it but they are not true fast acting, not the same as really old ones, they did add some delay to them.

Re: 120 Volt Welder user data

Where these 120 volt migs (Flux core loaded only too) is running off a smaller weight inverter generator.. Very nice combo, and with my little klutch 140i it will start the arc perfect, while running in the quieter low rpm mode.Picks up RPM as needed. I do find me using the little machine in the shop on 120 volt 20 amp line for small projects.. I modified a tweco Mini-mug gun to fit the machine,and it's flux-core only now.. BTW it will output 180 amps on my 120 volt line as long as i don't push it too long.. Same with running on the 30 amp /120 volt generator.

Re: 120 Volt Welder user data

Originally Posted by smithdoor

The fast blow fuses need to a lot bigger for welders.
A time delay fuses can take upto 10x power surge for 10 seconds.
A fast blow some types will blow at rated amperage

Dave

Originally Posted by smithdoor

FYI A breaker is about 2x for 1 second.

Dave

Dave,
You are missing everything. I never mentioned or suggested anything to do with a glass fuse feeding a welding machine. It was a example completely unrelated to the power going to a welder.

It was JUST an example of how if something is SHORT ENOUGH then it can be REALLY small and still feed the power through. I simply used a glass fuse element as a example because most people have seen the tiny strip in a glass fuse. Hard to see through most other types you know.

Re: 120 Volt Welder user data

FYI A breaker is about 2x for 1 second.

Dave

Originally Posted by danielplace

They make glass time delay slow blow fuses too.

Not sure how that matters as completely irrelevant to anything I was saying.

Re: 120 Volt Welder user data

The fast blow fuses need to a lot bigger for welders.
A time delay fuses can take upto 10x power surge for 10 seconds.
A fast blow some types will blow at rated amperage

Dave

Originally Posted by danielplace

They make glass time delay slow blow fuses too.

Not sure how that matters as completely irrelevant to anything I was saying.

Re: 120 Volt Welder user data

Originally Posted by smithdoor

Glass fuses are fast blow type.

Dave

They make glass time delay slow blow fuses too.

Not sure how that matters as completely irrelevant to anything I was saying.

Re: 120 Volt Welder user data

Glass fuses are fast blow type.

Dave

Originally Posted by danielplace

The cord length has the most to do with. Look at the element in a 20amp glass fuse. It can be that thin/small even out of easily melted material for the very short distance in the reduced section of the fuse link. The attached cords are skinny because they are short.

Re: 120 Volt Welder user data

Originally Posted by Willie B

Always somebody complaining about a cord on a machine or welder being too small, therefore Why do I need heavier wire for the circuit?

Manufactured items need only laboratory approval. In a bench test, did it overheat? Most of these cords are rated 105 degrees, or even higher. Welders (for example), have limited duty cycle. Following duty cycle rules, it won't overheat.

The circuit supplying your machine must comply with electrical code. Once we used type NM cable or TW single conductor in conduit rated 60 degrees C. it was (sometimes) rated 15 amps for #14, 20 amps for #12, 30 amps for #10.

When 90 degree insulation became mainstream, amp ratings rose sharply, but breaker sizes did not. Now, up to 9 conductors can carry traditional amperage in conduit if you don't have to adjust for ambient temperature.

The cord length has the most to do with. Look at the element in a 20amp glass fuse. It can be that thin/small even out of easily melted material for the very short distance in the reduced section of the fuse link. The attached cords are skinny because they are short.

Most of the wiring in any given equipment is going to be much less than the wire the branch circuit uses to feed it so all that wire is grossly over powered but it can't draw more than it's size because each are only feeding a part of the unit like say a single burner in a range so no way that burner can draw much more than the rating it is. A dead short in a short length of 16 gauge will still trip a 50 amp breaker.

Originally Posted by Slowxj

Aren't breakers still rated at 60c instead of 90? That's one of those things that bugs me...
Also why my old house (new to me) had an 85 amp breaker feeding number 6 that was technically rated for that amperage... issue was the breaker wouldn't take the heat so I reduced it to a 50 (had one on hand)

Sent from my SM-A426U using Tapatalk

The breakers today and most terminations are rated at 75°C

This always trumps the rating of the wire. Once you land even a 90°C rated wire in a breaker or lug it can only be used at 75°C ampacity tables if that is rating of breaker/lug.