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Re: What hardface rods do I need?

Originally Posted by VaughnT

Okay, it's probably not cast iron.

There were only two major brands of anvils that were made from cast iron -- Fisher/Norris and Vulcan. Badger's were around, but they weren't very common, imo.

While there were knock-offs and companies trying to steal their technique, those were garbage and wouldn't have survived long in a shop environment like you describe.

Unfortunately, both Fisher and Vulcan anvils of that period have very prominent maker's marks cast into the sides. You wouldn't be able to miss them because they're huge, yet you say there are no maker's marks on your example.

So... not cast iron would be the safer bet.

Cast steel, maybe. Wrought iron with a high-carbon faceplate welded on, most likely. Hard to say without pictures of the lass.

Definitely reach out to Grindstone. Just going through his million pictures on his FB account will give you a thousand ideas.

It isn't wrought. If I flip the anvil over I can see a depression from when it was cast.

Taste nothing like wrought iron, either.

Could be cast steel... honestly the more I think about it, the more I think you're right. I never actually saw a definitive line where a steel plate would be welded to the surface. Maybe the chips are from work hardening? That would explain how someone managed to put a couple marks in the face at some point. I literally can't even scratch it.

I can't see any sway in the anvil, either. So I think that'd be an indication of not being wrought. That or just a indication of the type of work it was used for. Smaller stuff mostly, I imagine.

Re: What hardface rods do I need?

Originally Posted by 52 Ford

Looks like cast iron to me. DEFINITELY a hardened face.

Okay, it's probably not cast iron.

There were only two major brands of anvils that were made from cast iron -- Fisher/Norris and Vulcan. Badger's were around, but they weren't very common, imo.

While there were knock-offs and companies trying to steal their technique, those were garbage and wouldn't have survived long in a shop environment like you describe.

Unfortunately, both Fisher and Vulcan anvils of that period have very prominent maker's marks cast into the sides. You wouldn't be able to miss them because they're huge, yet you say there are no maker's marks on your example.

So... not cast iron would be the safer bet.

Cast steel, maybe. Wrought iron with a high-carbon faceplate welded on, most likely. Hard to say without pictures of the lass.

Definitely reach out to Grindstone. Just going through his million pictures on his FB account will give you a thousand ideas.

Re: What hardface rods do I need?

I have not repaired an anvil before. I have put hard edges on chipping hammers and chisels with tig using 1/8" drill bits as filler. Cheap easy hard repair. Is this a bad idea on an anvil?

Re: What hardface rods do I need?

Originally Posted by shortfuse

Gonna add my two bits here...wanted or not. Seems as though 52 Ford came asking how to "fix" his anvil. He apparently decided against researching anvil repair prior to doing his welding, has gone about his way to do as he pleased despite advise here from some folks experienced in blacksmithing and anvils, and also never posed any questions on the blacksmithing forum www.iforgeiron.com, so I say let him weld away to his heart's content and and good luck on how his anvil fares......

I wasn't on any forums last time I welded up the chipped areas and didn't know too much about hardfacing at the time of the last (attempted) repair. I COULD just leave it as is and get many more years of use out of it. The cracked spot on the edge isn't in a spot on the anvil that I use. It just bugs me.

That being said, the conversation we've had here has convinced me that the Robb Guenther (excuse any misspelling) method IS the way to go and the rods are worth paying a little extra for. Plus y'all have given me the names of a few good people I can contact if I need guidance and that is much appreciated.

Funny thing is, last time I saw the anvil was the day before I made the first post. I REALLY played that little crack up in my head. LOL. I walk out there expecting to see the grand canyon running across the edge of the anvil. You can catch your finger nail on it, but that's it. Still going to get fixed. Probably late next month or the month after that. I need to get a couple other projects wrapped up before I can get started on that.

Re: What hardface rods do I need?

Gonna add my two bits here...wanted or not. Seems as though 52 Ford came asking how to "fix" his anvil. He apparently decided against researching anvil repair prior to doing his welding, has gone about his way to do as he pleased despite advise here from some folks experienced in blacksmithing and anvils, and also never posed any questions on the blacksmithing forum www.iforgeiron.com, so I say let him weld away to his heart's content and and good luck on how his anvil fares......

Re: What hardface rods do I need?

Nice work 👏.

Dave

Originally Posted by VaughnT

The Gunther Method is the only way to go. Since you're already familiar with it, I would highly recommend you reach out to Grindstone250 on Instagram -- https://www.instagram.com/grindstone250/

He's the only guy I'm aware of who has extensive experience welding up anvils. I know a lot of people who say they've done it, but Grindstone is the only guy I've ever seen putting up the receipts. Not saying anyone else is fibbing, but seeing the hundreds of examples in Grindstone's pictures sets me at ease.





He's also on Facebook -- https://www.facebook.com/250.grindstone

A great guy to talk with, and very helpful. While he tries to steer clear of cast iron anvils, he's still a wealth of knowledge and will get you squared away with more info than you know what to do with. If there's a rod or wire he recommends, or a technique he prefers, I'd take it as gospel and not fret a bit.

Re: What hardface rods do I need?

Originally Posted by VaughnT

The Gunther Method is the only way to go. Since you're already familiar with it, I would highly recommend you reach out to Grindstone250 on Instagram -- https://www.instagram.com/grindstone250/

He's the only guy I'm aware of who has extensive experience welding up anvils. I know a lot of people who say they've done it, but Grindstone is the only guy I've ever seen putting up the receipts. Not saying anyone else is fibbing, but seeing the hundreds of examples in Grindstone's pictures sets me at ease.





He's also on Facebook -- https://www.facebook.com/250.grindstone

A great guy to talk with, and very helpful. While he tries to steer clear of cast iron anvils, he's still a wealth of knowledge and will get you squared away with more info than you know what to do with. If there's a rod or wire he recommends, or a technique he prefers, I'd take it as gospel and not fret a bit.

I might have to send him a message. Thanks!

Nice anvil, by the way. Is that yours?

Same advice I gave smithdoor - if you're in a humid environment, wiping the anvil down with boiled linseed oil every once in a while will keep it from getting rusty and (in my experience/opinion) isn't a fire hazard. It makes a durable finish, too.

Re: What hardface rods do I need?

Originally Posted by mla2ofus

I said corner bits, maybe you don't know what I'm talking about. Corner bits are used on each end of a dozer in conjunction with the cutting edges and I cut wedges out of one. And like I also said they are so hard they'd spall where the hammer was hitting the wide end of it. That's why I said I discarded them due to danger to personnel. They were used in conjunction with "doglegs" to pull 2 peices of metal together. Popeye the miner will know what I'm referring to.

Yeah I know exactly what you're talking about now.

Re: What hardface rods do I need?

The Gunther Method is the only way to go. Since you're already familiar with it, I would highly recommend you reach out to Grindstone250 on Instagram -- https://www.instagram.com/grindstone250/

He's the only guy I'm aware of who has extensive experience welding up anvils. I know a lot of people who say they've done it, but Grindstone is the only guy I've ever seen putting up the receipts. Not saying anyone else is fibbing, but seeing the hundreds of examples in Grindstone's pictures sets me at ease.





He's also on Facebook -- https://www.facebook.com/250.grindstone

A great guy to talk with, and very helpful. While he tries to steer clear of cast iron anvils, he's still a wealth of knowledge and will get you squared away with more info than you know what to do with. If there's a rod or wire he recommends, or a technique he prefers, I'd take it as gospel and not fret a bit.

Re: What hardface rods do I need?

Anytime I hard facing I never did grinding.
The weld was smooth after welding

Dave

Originally Posted by mla2ofus

If you use hard rod you better lay in a good supply of grinder discs to smooth things out when finished welding. I think some 11018 rod would be a better way to go. JMHO.

Re: What hardface rods do I need?

Originally Posted by mla2ofus

If you use hard rod you better lay in a good supply of grinder discs to smooth things out when finished welding. I think some 11018 rod would be a better way to go. JMHO.

https://www.mcmaster.com/grinding-wh...use-on-metals/

Re: What hardface rods do I need?

If you use hard rod you better lay in a good supply of grinder discs to smooth things out when finished welding. I think some 11018 rod would be a better way to go. JMHO.

Re: What hardface rods do I need?

Originally Posted by 52 Ford

You're talkin bucket teeth, right? Yeah the only wedges I like to use are low carbon steel and wood. When I'm running my chainsaw mill, I use wedges that I cut out of a sheet of 1" thick white plastic. They're easy to see if you drop them, they don't rot, and they aren't a hazard if you hit them with the chain.

I said corner bits, maybe you don't know what I'm talking about. Corner bits are used on each end of a dozer in conjunction with the cutting edges and I cut wedges out of one. And like I also said they are so hard they'd spall where the hammer was hitting the wide end of it. That's why I said I discarded them due to danger to personnel. They were used in conjunction with "doglegs" to pull 2 peices of metal together. Popeye the miner will know what I'm referring to.

Re: What hardface rods do I need?

Originally Posted by G-ManBart

Peter Wright didn't make forged steel anvils. They prided themselves, and advertised very specifically that they were made with virgin wrought iron bodies with tool steel top plates. Yes, the top plate was forged onto the wrought iron body (which was made of roughly six other parts).

That's actually part of why so many of the earlier PW are found with quite a bit of sway...the virgin wrought iron body was a touch softer than what most competitors used. The competitors would use wrought iron, but add scrap steels to the furnace to save a few bucks...wound up with a tougher metal in the process. PW actually changed to make their anvils very slightly convex when new so that with a bit of use they would be dead flat.

I've probably had a dozen PW anvils from 75 to 305lbs...good solid anvils but I like Swedish and German cast steel anvils better so all of them have found new homes.

I wouldn't mind having about a 250 or 300 pound German pattern anvil. Low on the list, though. More shop space first... THEN more toys - I mean tools.

Look up Joey Van Der Steeg on YouTube. If you like anvils, you'll like his videos. He's made some videos where he forges anvils. Forge welds the peices together, the whole 9 yards. The man definitely knows what he's doing.

Edit, check out the 400 pound S&H he has

Re: What hardface rods do I need?

Originally Posted by G-ManBart

I'm not asking this to be picky...it really makes a difference. Are you sure it's cast iron and tool steel? Fisher, Vulcan and Badger are the only common anvils you'll find with a cast iron body and tool steel face. The vast majority of vintage anvils fall into one of three main camps: wrought iron body with a tool steel face, mystery metal cast base, wrought iron body and tool steel face or solid cast steel. If you don't have any sections of face that are delaminated it doesn't make as much of a difference, but often working on edges you're trying to tie in the body to the tool steel face and that's where the difference lies.

Yes, I'm an anvil geek and have had 100+ over the years

Unfortunately, there aren't any marking on the anvil. Looks like cast iron to me. DEFINITELY a hardened face. I did weld a little of the body where it had been really badly chipped so I could build it up enough to hardface it and it welded just like cast iron.

It's tough stuff, whatever it is, to have held up like it has.

Keep in mind that the anvil was in the maintenance shop at a large commercial operation for decades. I'd say probably 80 years?

Re: What hardface rods do I need?

Originally Posted by whtbaron

To be clear, I was also working on a Peter Wright, which is a forged steel, not a cast iron base. I thought the OP was working on the top plate, which is where my method would likely work. If you are getting into the cast iron, that's a whole nuther story...

Peter Wright didn't make forged steel anvils. They prided themselves, and advertised very specifically that they were made with virgin wrought iron bodies with tool steel top plates. Yes, the top plate was forged onto the wrought iron body (which was made of roughly six other parts).

That's actually part of why so many of the earlier PW are found with quite a bit of sway...the virgin wrought iron body was a touch softer than what most competitors used. The competitors would use wrought iron, but add scrap steels to the furnace to save a few bucks...wound up with a tougher metal in the process. PW actually changed to make their anvils very slightly convex when new so that with a bit of use they would be dead flat.

I've probably had a dozen PW anvils from 75 to 305lbs...good solid anvils but I like Swedish and German cast steel anvils better so all of them have found new homes.

Re: What hardface rods do I need?

Originally Posted by 52 Ford

It's a big piece of cast iron and steel, though. Not rocket surgery. All I want is a nice, tough, flat surface with square edges so I can shape hot steel.

I'm not asking this to be picky...it really makes a difference. Are you sure it's cast iron and tool steel? Fisher, Vulcan and Badger are the only common anvils you'll find with a cast iron body and tool steel face. The vast majority of vintage anvils fall into one of three main camps: wrought iron body with a tool steel face, mystery metal cast base, wrought iron body and tool steel face or solid cast steel. If you don't have any sections of face that are delaminated it doesn't make as much of a difference, but often working on edges you're trying to tie in the body to the tool steel face and that's where the difference lies.

Yes, I'm an anvil geek and have had 100+ over the years

Re: What hardface rods do I need?

Originally Posted by whtbaron

To be clear, I was also working on a Peter Wright, which is a forged steel, not a cast iron base. I thought the OP was working on the top plate, which is where my method would likely work. If you are getting into the cast iron, that's a whole nuther story...

I'm just assuming I'm going to be getting into the cast base. I don't THINK the top plate is awfully thick.

I've never welded real wrought iron, but from what I understand, it behaves very similar to steel. I have forged it though... behaved like steel in the fire and at the anvil.

Re: What hardface rods do I need?

Originally Posted by mla2ofus

I made some wedges from corner bits yrs ago and had to toss them as they would spall from hammer strikes making them dangerous to personnel.

You're talkin bucket teeth, right? Yeah the only wedges I like to use are low carbon steel and wood. When I'm running my chainsaw mill, I use wedges that I cut out of a sheet of 1" thick white plastic. They're easy to see if you drop them, they don't rot, and they aren't a hazard if you hit them with the chain.

Re: What hardface rods do I need?

Originally Posted by SweetMK

I would do some blacksmith forum research,,, BUT!!!,,, (there is always a but,,)
the but in this case is that the blacksmith might be great with low carbon steel, and a forge,, and a big hammer,,
BUT, the guy may not know, or understand high carbon, or other high alloy steel. Your recommendations might be being typed by some low carbon steel specialist blacksmith.
VERY few of those guys are up to date on modern alloy steels that would make an anvil "sing"
Most of them heat a piece of hot rolled low carbon steel, and make a sellable paper weight, or hinge,,,

The following assumes this will be a working anvil, not a show piece:
If it were MY anvil, and it had as much damage as described,, I would NEVER try to repair it with welding buildup.
No ones weld buildup could come close to a newly manufactured piece of steel. That much weld in MOST backyard situations will inadvertently have slag inclusions,,
I would find a piece of steel that is the right alloy,, and weld the new piece of steel to the anvil,, resulting in a perfect surface, and edge.

If the anvil needs holes, round or square,, add the holes prior to welding.

Heck, there are probably pieces of bulldozer blade parts that are an alloy that could be hardened,, and would be stronger, and more impact resistant than ANY 120 year old technology.

I guess it all depends on whether you want a show piece,, or a SUPER NEW technology surface that will make you the best blacksmith.

I made some wedges from corner bits yrs ago and had to toss them as they would spall from hammer strikes making them dangerous to personnel.

Re: What hardface rods do I need?

Originally Posted by Kelvin

As for the folks on blacksmithing forums not knowing what they are talking about, I have found them to be quite knowledgeable.

"Frosty" on the iforgeiron website is one who seems to know what he's talking about. Maybe the OP could post up there, or ask him directly in a PM.

https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/615...elding-repair/

Re: What hardface rods do I need?

Originally Posted by whtbaron

To be clear, I was also working on a Peter Wright, which is a forged steel, not a cast iron base. I thought the OP was working on the top plate, which is where my method would likely work. If you are getting into the cast iron, that's a whole nuther story...

PW anvils are made of wrought iron (waist) and Sheffield tool steel forge-welded for the face. If you weld on the tool steel face, you will get hard spots and cracking for the reasons mentioned.

As for the folks on blacksmithing forums not knowing what they are talking about, I have found them to be quite knowledgeable. You just have to sift the wheat from the chaff, which is not too hard if you read what they have to say.

Re: What hardface rods do I need?

I would do some blacksmith forum research,,, BUT!!!,,, (there is always a but,,)
the but in this case is that the blacksmith might be great with low carbon steel, and a forge,, and a big hammer,,
BUT, the guy may not know, or understand high carbon, or other high alloy steel. Your recommendations might be being typed by some low carbon steel specialist blacksmith.
VERY few of those guys are up to date on modern alloy steels that would make an anvil "sing"
Most of them heat a piece of hot rolled low carbon steel, and make a sellable paper weight, or hinge,,,

The following assumes this will be a working anvil, not a show piece:
If it were MY anvil, and it had as much damage as described,, I would NEVER try to repair it with welding buildup.
No ones weld buildup could come close to a newly manufactured piece of steel. That much weld in MOST backyard situations will inadvertently have slag inclusions,,
I would find a piece of steel that is the right alloy,, and weld the new piece of steel to the anvil,, resulting in a perfect surface, and edge.

If the anvil needs holes, round or square,, add the holes prior to welding.

Heck, there are probably pieces of bulldozer blade parts that are an alloy that could be hardened,, and would be stronger, and more impact resistant than ANY 120 year old technology.

I guess it all depends on whether you want a show piece,, or a SUPER NEW technology surface that will make you the best blacksmith.

Re: What hardface rods do I need?

Cast iron is fun part of welding.
To do good everything has to right. Then easy-going. White iron more fun

Dave

Originally Posted by whtbaron

To be clear, I was also working on a Peter Wright, which is a forged steel, not a cast iron base. I thought the OP was working on the top plate, which is where my method would likely work. If you are getting into the cast iron, that's a whole nuther story...

Re: What hardface rods do I need?

To be clear, I was also working on a Peter Wright, which is a forged steel, not a cast iron base. I thought the OP was working on the top plate, which is where my method would likely work. If you are getting into the cast iron, that's a whole nuther story...