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Re: Am I an idiot and lose a job for “greed”?

Originally Posted by Munkul

If you can't justify doing basic stuff cheaper, then you can't justify doing them at all.

These are the best words you have heard from this thread. They go along the lines of how I transformed my business. When I went to a customers house to quote a wrought iron railing, and the customer said what's the difference between yours and home depots. I would reply with I use solid posts and pickets, we twist the pickets ourselves, we guarantee our construction and install. If the customer made any hint or reference toward home depot or cheap stuff again, I just walked out. That's why I now do 95% stainless and aluminum.


Here is another one I have learned over the years. If you are bidding a job to build a house, and you count every nail required for that job, you will never have any work.


I never include for travel time for myself. You dont get a discount for driving 30 minutes to the grocery store. But it is an added cost no one thinks about.

Your $75 hour is high. I am in south NJ and I only charge $85 hour and I have full insurance, full fab shop, and work in industrial food processing. I know your area is higher as I have a lot of friends from the CT/Mass border.

You have no insurance, no references, no past pictures of work, no real drawing of your job to complete, and you are charging as you were a legit company starting out. So the customer is taking a risk on you as well, so why would they pay good rates for that.

I would say, most people in your position, would do this job cheap as a starter job into more work.

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Re: Am I an idiot and lose a job for “greed”?

Originally Posted by CPO_Dave

Munkul has summed it up nicely.

I agree, and while I'm not bidding jobs for welding, I did learn something from it.

I have to agree with Munkul, there is probably not a great demand for $3000 (in your case) bike racks when you can buy one for $600 on Amazon.

I think it's like Clint Eastwood quoted, "A man's gotta know his limitations".

Seems you did the right thing, quoted what you felt it would cost, and if the customer will pay it all the more power. Somehow life doesn't work out like that though.

Maybe you could get the $600 bike rack from Amazon and weld a few small plates on it and charge him $800, or $1200, whatever seems fair for your time. You can mark up the bike rack by 30% which is common in the industry. With the plates, Apt 1, Apt 2, Apt 3 know where to park their bike. I'm guessing the plate is to put someone name on the spot, like "CEO designer bike only, don't park your tricycle here!".

Also, to just get an understanding that if you do want to have a side business of welding, try to understand the industry and make sense of it. That goes for jobbing things out to other contractors that you are not well suited for, or stuff you don't like to do. A great businessman will make it works for both sides to close the deal. Food for thought.

Re: Am I an idiot and lose a job for “greed”?

To the OP if you are still engaged:
Over the course of several days, you have adjusted your thinking based on feedback. I think you got your money's worth. Munkul has summed it up nicely.
I was going to suggest you should differentiate between "overhead" costs and "direct" labor costs. Your customer may need to be educated on the realities of "custom" work. Reading between the lines, I gather you are uncomfortable wearing the many hats of the transaction. Your customer is treating you like a "contractor". You know, as in home building?
I agree with advice given here, that you should break out the details. Since you are part-time at this for now, narrow what you are willing to do. If you are just wanting to make money, think about teaming-up with an established business. Sell your services to them. Let them negotiate price and delivery and installation. Fix your labor cost and hold to it. There are experienced people on this forum that do that. Others enjoy the whole transaction. They often get their kicks by the job itself. It is like the three workers on the sidewalk. First guy "what are you doing?" Answer: mixing mortar. Second guy "laying brick". Third guy "building a Cathedral". Which guy do you want to be? Just saying.

BTW you are not an idiot. We all have second thoughts. It is good to evaluate as you go.

Re: Am I an idiot and lose a job for “greed”?

I'd be thinking about the end product and the actual pricepoint for a bike rack.

1. is it art?
- No. Just has to be strong and well finished.

2. does it take coded welding or any other specialist, marketable skill? Is it classed as structural steelwork?
- No. Literally any tom, dick or harry can make one with a grinder, drill and welder.

3. Is it for a corporate or VIP customer? Will they choose your bid over cheaper bids knowing they're paying for a trusted, reliable contractor?
- No to all of that.

No to all of these questions means unfortunately, that the market for $2400 bike racks doesn't exist.
over here, the market for that kind of thing has disappeared altogether - given that you can buy an imported rack for £100, or a better quality one for up to £500... galvanised, high quality etc.

If you can't justify doing basic stuff cheaper, then you can't justify doing them at all.
^that's your first lesson, we all find that out sooner or later when trying to make money from making stuff. I'm sure most of us have had this.

I've had dreamers asking "can you price up some aluminium ramps for my custom car" or "stainless steel shelving for this or that" - something a bit more specialist that takes a good bit of TIG welding - and it comes to more than a couple hundred pounds, of course, even at CHEAPEST - at which point, they lose interest, and suddenly realise they can get by with cheap or bodged stuff.

- you can't charge for driving to get paint etc! Most you can do is claim back fuel expenses or mileage on tax return.

You also can't say you're doing this as a sideline, and also charge top end prices, in the same sentence. Your customers know this, and expect cheaper, that's how it works.

You can't have it both ways, unless you have specific marketable skills/equipment that justify your premium prices.

Re: Am I an idiot and lose a job for “greed”?

I do a lot of fabrication and my customers install, I prefer it that way, like TBone said, I like to concentrate on what I'm good and fast at.

Re: Am I an idiot and lose a job for “greed”?

There are definitely fab jobs that are more cheaply done by a job shop. I partner with a local shop several times a year; there's no shame in doing installations if it lets you get the job and keep a customer which you'd have otherwise lost because you couldn't have been competitive. There are jobs that can be done as quickly or more quickly and accurately in the field, but it's not all of them.

The way I look at it is that I need to play to my strengths. Putting my weaknesses / shortfalls up against a competitor's strengths is a losing game every time. I want to get my hourly rate every time I go out, I NEVER want to be working 70 hours and billing 40. So I don't build stuff that I can't build efficiently; I farm it out. My partner shop does high-quality work and I rarely have to rework things they produce.

BUT, if you put those guys out in the middle of nowhere with an engine drive, an oxy-propane torch, a metal-cutting circular saw, some clamps, hammers, and various grinders, would they be faster than me playing on my turf? No, and they know it. Which is why I do a lot of installations for them on jobs they get calls for.

Re: Am I an idiot and lose a job for “greed”?

Originally Posted by TraditionalToolworks

I guess that's good if you want to be an installer. I rather think about this the opposite way, I would want to do the welding and get someone else to install it.

He can fabricate it, this will give him an idea what a proffessional shop would charge.
Fabricating is fun as long as break even.
A profit us definitely a plus .
That's why there are fabricators and installers. [emoji23]


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Re: Am I an idiot and lose a job for “greed”?

Welding is the fun part. If the customer's on a budget have them paint it and install it.

Re: Am I an idiot and lose a job for “greed”?

Originally Posted by BD1

What's the fun in that.

He'll get a education on job qoute and an idea of what material costs are.
Then adjust his price accordingly

I guess that's good if you want to be an installer. I rather think about this the opposite way, I would want to do the welding and get someone else to install it.

Re: Am I an idiot and lose a job for “greed”?

What's the fun in that.

He'll get a education on job qoute and an idea of what material costs are.
Then adjust his price accordingly


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Re: Am I an idiot and lose a job for “greed”?

Originally Posted by TraditionalToolworks

What's the fun in that? [emoji23]


My current job I bill by the hour, and limited to 40 hours a week. However, I'm not at the bottom tier entry level pay, and on top of that the company let's me work from home currently and that will continue most likely until July, at which time they may ask us to go back in the office.

I treat this like a full time job pretty much, given the circumstances, since my 40 hours are like clockwork.

You seem to have a good handle on it, and don't worry, WeldingWeb can rattle people like few places on the web. I've had my share of misunderstandings with folks here.

There's certainly some smart people here, and there's some rude ones also...

Welders aren't known for their manners and people skills......

Re: Am I an idiot and lose a job for “greed”?

wow.
one thing i usually do on stuff like this, that eases/benefits me in about a dozen major ways, and is fair for both parties. i tell customer," i will put together an order of materials at my local steel dist on my acct. which gives a small discount, then you call in and pay for it w/ credit card"

Re: Am I an idiot and lose a job for “greed”?

Originally Posted by BD1

I would take your design to local fab shop and get a price from them.
They might be able to do it for less and then you just install.

What's the fun in that?

Originally Posted by J93Welder

Thanks for the input. I know theres many different ways, other than the one I chose. I may have seen that video you referenced too, I might dig it up. I think in all honesty, I would charge by the hour, and every tenth of an hour. My normal day job I clock every 1/10. I don't think I would be that greedy to charge to take a ****, unless I'm at my normal day job of course. I'm just overwhelmed with screwing up again, I will look through the post and see what seems to be the best markup and go from there, start small.

My current job I bill by the hour, and limited to 40 hours a week. However, I'm not at the bottom tier entry level pay, and on top of that the company let's me work from home currently and that will continue most likely until July, at which time they may ask us to go back in the office.

I treat this like a full time job pretty much, given the circumstances, since my 40 hours are like clockwork.

You seem to have a good handle on it, and don't worry, WeldingWeb can rattle people like few places on the web. I've had my share of misunderstandings with folks here.

There's certainly some smart people here, and there's some rude ones also...

Re: Am I an idiot and lose a job for “greed”?

My dad used to say don't worry about the jobs you don't get, worry about the jobs you have. You won't get them all and in some cases it's a good thing.

Re: Am I an idiot and lose a job for “greed”?

I would take your design to local fab shop and get a price from them.
They might be able to do it for less and then you just install.


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Re: Am I an idiot and lose a job for “greed”?

Originally Posted by TraditionalToolworks

I have no dog in this fight, but I have seen a couple people telling you how they would calculate it. You do seem to get defensive over the fact that people didn't seem to give you the answer you wanted to hear.

From your response it seems you wanted people to confirm that you weren't out of you mind on how you were quoting.

I don't run a welding shop for my hobby, I only weld for myself, so I don't bid projects. I will say that there's an art to being able to bid a job, just as there is in being able to do it. I have seen Jody Collier (Welding Tips And Tricks) mention the way he will calculate a job is to calculate the welding by the inch, but I can't remember if that was $1/inch or how he calculated it and can't find the video online at the moment. That might be a good place to start though, at $1/inch for the welding. I would calculate marking up your materials about 30%, that's what a contractor would do for any type of construction, where 20%-30% is not uncommon.

If you calculate your welding per time, and materials per cost + markup, that should work out to a project unless you miscalculate. Any yahoo can calculate +-50% of the real time spent, but being able to accurately calculate is where the art comes into play. Also, I understand your concern with travel time and time spent with the customer, but you need to be as efficient as you can. The customer shouldn't have to pay the same rate for you driving, although gas is also a concern. This is a grey area, and some people will do what they need to do in order to get the job, so they may discount that time some that they spend traveling. Forklift repair is the worst with this, they do charge the same rate for travel which is typically $125/hr in my area, but some places are willing to charge a flat rate for the travel which is more fair, IMO.

If you want to calculate your plans accurately, figure how long it takes you to weld an inch, calculate the amount of inches per your plans, add the cost of materials and then the markup and it should get you into the ballpark.

Just saying you need to make money and you're not doing it for fun, blah-blah-blah doesn't help anyone and it certainly won't allow anyone to help you.

I will say this. I often work by the hour. I have no materials, it's purely consulting. Sometimes I have to do extra work to please the customer, that's just the way it is. I will sometimes figure that I'm not being 100% productive and add a tad of extra time to make up for that. We all have our own way of doing this, but your customers are going to expect you to be working productively for the money they pay you. Calculate appropriately. I've also worked with people that start/stop the clock on the minute, they feel the customer should pay them even for the time they go sit on the $#!TTer for 20 minutes looking at their cell phone. I don't do that.

Thanks for the input. I know theres many different ways, other than the one I chose. I may have seen that video you referenced too, I might dig it up. I think in all honesty, I would charge by the hour, and every tenth of an hour. My normal day job I clock every 1/10. I don't think I would be that greedy to charge to take a ****, unless I'm at my normal day job of course. I'm just overwhelmed with screwing up again, I will look through the post and see what seems to be the best markup and go from there, start small.

Re: Am I an idiot and lose a job for “greed”?

Originally Posted by J93Welder

I’m being defensive? You are yet to tell me what you would have done? What you’d mark up, what you’d charge hourly, what you’d charge for mileage, for mobile, anything.

I have no dog in this fight, but I have seen a couple people telling you how they would calculate it. You do seem to get defensive over the fact that people didn't seem to give you the answer you wanted to hear.

From your response it seems you wanted people to confirm that you weren't out of you mind on how you were quoting.

I don't run a welding shop for my hobby, I only weld for myself, so I don't bid projects. I will say that there's an art to being able to bid a job, just as there is in being able to do it. I have seen Jody Collier (Welding Tips And Tricks) mention the way he will calculate a job is to calculate the welding by the inch, but I can't remember if that was $1/inch or how he calculated it and can't find the video online at the moment. That might be a good place to start though, at $1/inch for the welding. I would calculate marking up your materials about 30%, that's what a contractor would do for any type of construction, where 20%-30% is not uncommon.

If you calculate your welding per time, and materials per cost + markup, that should work out to a project unless you miscalculate. Any yahoo can calculate +-50% of the real time spent, but being able to accurately calculate is where the art comes into play. Also, I understand your concern with travel time and time spent with the customer, but you need to be as efficient as you can. The customer shouldn't have to pay the same rate for you driving, although gas is also a concern. This is a grey area, and some people will do what they need to do in order to get the job, so they may discount that time some that they spend traveling. Forklift repair is the worst with this, they do charge the same rate for travel which is typically $125/hr in my area, but some places are willing to charge a flat rate for the travel which is more fair, IMO.

If you want to calculate your plans accurately, figure how long it takes you to weld an inch, calculate the amount of inches per your plans, add the cost of materials and then the markup and it should get you into the ballpark.

Just saying you need to make money and you're not doing it for fun, blah-blah-blah doesn't help anyone and it certainly won't allow anyone to help you.

I will say this. I often work by the hour. I have no materials, it's purely consulting. Sometimes I have to do extra work to please the customer, that's just the way it is. I will sometimes figure that I'm not being 100% productive and add a tad of extra time to make up for that. We all have our own way of doing this, but your customers are going to expect you to be working productively for the money they pay you. Calculate appropriately. I've also worked with people that start/stop the clock on the minute, they feel the customer should pay them even for the time they go sit on the $#!TTer for 20 minutes looking at their cell phone. I don't do that.

Re: Am I an idiot and lose a job for “greed”?

Originally Posted by Welder Dave

Yeah you're being defensive. If you felt justified in your estimate you wouldn't have started a thread titled Am I an idiot and lose a job for "greed?" Nobody says you have to do it for free. I think a lot of people the first question to the customer would be, Do you have a budget in mind? Then you go from there. If the customer says under $1000 you say you can't do it for that or maybe you could build one rack if he wanted to paint it and install it himself. I just asked if you did much custom work. I think most people would take a bunch of notes and spend a day or so coming up with a workable plan before offering a price. Paint extra, install extra, etc. Then the customer could decide what works best for them. It's no different than someone buying a new car, you try to find something that suit their needs. You don't just head over to the Cadillacs.

No I'm with that, I agree! I just felt like I was explaining I was wrong, you were saying I was wrong, but I just wanted to know how to correct this. I don't want to make enemies here, I just want to learn from my mistakes and understand what I did wrong. I also like the idea of asking what they think it'll cost too. Thanks.

Re: Am I an idiot and lose a job for “greed”?

Yeah you're being defensive. If you felt justified in your estimate you wouldn't have started a thread titled Am I an idiot and lose a job for "greed?" Nobody says you have to do it for free. I think a lot of people the first question to the customer would be, Do you have a budget in mind? Then you go from there. If the customer says under $1000 you say you can't do it for that or maybe you could build one rack if he wanted to paint it and install it himself. I just asked if you did much custom work. I think most people would take a bunch of notes and spend a day or so coming up with a workable plan before offering a price. Paint extra, install extra, etc. Then the customer could decide what works best for them. It's no different than someone buying a new car, you try to find something that suit their needs. You don't just head over to the Cadillacs.

Re: Am I an idiot and lose a job for “greed”?

I can fabricate 35ft of railings for $500 of materials, and that's with solid posts, and pickets, I'm in CT, not that far away....

And no you're not submerged in people who undercut everyone just to get the job, we fabricate for a living.

Idk what else to say, you did ask for feedback...

I'd charge $850 each plus materials, which I guess would cost around $200-$250

For a small job like this, I've found that you can't nit pick the customer and charge for every little trip to the hardware or the jobsite, the job simply isn't big enough to soak up all those costs.

Sometimes you have to drive for an hour to do a 4ft handrail, that's how it works sometimes unfortunately.

Re: Am I an idiot and lose a job for “greed”?

Originally Posted by Welder Dave

Why are you so defensive? Everything you posted pointed to a lack of experience in estimating a job. That's neither a good thing nor a bad thing. It is what it is and you can learn from it for the future. You titled this thread so you must have had some inkling you might have been high on the price.

I’m being defensive? You are yet to tell me what you would have done? What you’d mark up, what you’d charge hourly, what you’d charge for mileage, for mobile, anything. I was explaining what my rationale was when I bid the job so others could say “oh well you don’t do that, don’t charge this, just charge this and that” instead I’m told I don’t have experience in doing what I’m doing, told my material is too high, and that because I bid high I have never done custom work. I have, but I’m not doing this so I can be a $20 special-hobbyist shop, or for a case of beer. I’m doing this because it’s clearly needed around my parts, and I’m not doing it for free. But I also want to be fair, all while not under cutting other business owners too. But I’m still yet to hear any constructive criticism, only attacks on what I know.

Re: Am I an idiot and lose a job for “greed”?

Originally Posted by bassboy1

I think I see where this went awry. Most people talking about charging 100/ft are talking about about fencing or rails, and are charging 100 linear ft of finished railings, not a total of the raw materials that constitute it...

I still want to see the design.

That is the ballpark, but for fabricated, painted, and installed

Re: Am I an idiot and lose a job for “greed”?

Why are you so defensive? Everything you posted pointed to a lack of experience in estimating a job. That's neither a good thing nor a bad thing. It is what it is and you can learn from it for the future. You titled this thread so you must have had some inkling you might have been high on the price.

Re: Am I an idiot and lose a job for “greed”?

Originally Posted by Welder Dave

A customer doesn't care what a fab shop pays workers, they care what a fab shop charges. Twice as much time because things could happen? I think it's just a case where you started seeing $$$$ signs without spending enough time to thoroughly work out an estimate. I'm still guessing you haven't done a lot of custom work. Why is it such a big secret where you live?

I live in Massachusetts. And I also wish I was born as perfect as you when beginning on my own. Let me rephrase, I am not DEFENDING what my bid was, I am EXPLAINING what I was thinking when I sent the bid. I can't believe how hard at reading this is for you. "Twice as much time?" I don't know what it would take, I didn't get the job so I guess I won't know. Good thing it's pretty much a hobby shop and my day job pays my mortgage, huh? No one likes a hero under cutter that does jobs for scab labor, I've clearly submerged myself with people like that. Still don't think I've done a lot of custom work? What do you want? A dick showing contest? I personally think around $3k was a fair price for 2 hand crafted fabricated 6 bike stall rack. Guess I get my "sticks" too expensive around here

Re: Am I an idiot and lose a job for “greed”?

A customer doesn't care what a fab shop pays workers, they care what a fab shop charges. Twice as much time because things could happen? I think it's just a case where you started seeing $$$$ signs without spending enough time to thoroughly work out an estimate. I'm still guessing you haven't done a lot of custom work. Why is it such a big secret where you live?