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Re: Weld pulled the other way?

Now you’re thinking

Re: Weld pulled the other way?

Just take a hammer to it... Seriously dude? Some point like the end product to look nice not beat all to hell like a iron worker got a hold of it. You kill me.

Re: Weld pulled the other way?

Should have counter bent it knowing it will bend when welding. Just take a hammer and beat back to 90

Re: Weld pulled the other way?

Originally Posted by husq2100

Angle correct.

Re: Weld pulled the other way?

Sounds like you got

Dave

Originally Posted by husq2100

Had a win ... or fluke , which ever you prefer.

Seems the consensus was the tacks being re heated and pulling ( which explains the left movement on root, but not on subsequent runs with more filler and weave....)

So my solution was less tacks, only 2 in fact, right on the very ends. Then the root was put in colder. Angle remained unchanged. 2nd pass had it pull to the right a little ( no weld on the left at this stage) . Fillet on left side returned it. Then added the small gusset mid section. Tacked in place. Finished out the outside corner with 2 more passes. Angle correct.

(Btw photos from my phone seem to get rotated when attached?)

Re: Weld pulled the other way?

Had a win ... or fluke , which ever you prefer.

Seems the consensus was the tacks being re heated and pulling ( which explains the left movement on root, but not on subsequent runs with more filler and weave....)

So my solution was less tacks, only 2 in fact, right on the very ends. Then the root was put in colder. Angle remained unchanged. 2nd pass had it pull to the right a little ( no weld on the left at this stage) . Fillet on left side returned it. Then added the small gusset mid section. Tacked in place. Finished out the outside corner with 2 more passes. Angle correct.

(Btw photos from my phone seem to get rotated when attached?)

Re: Weld pulled the other way?

Originally Posted by husq2100

Dave, we’ve already been through this, and I don’t have to explain myself again.

I’m appreciative of those that read and helped with good info.

You have an odd way of showing it.

Re: Weld pulled the other way?

It some I learned welding base plates on column.
It something that easy to show in shop as the base plate wiggle around and how fix it.
I have been shops where the welders would weld all one side and part would warp.

The way best is practice

Dave

Originally Posted by Kelvin

I'm with Dave. I would find a way to (temporarily) tack the gusset in place, then weld the bracket most of the way out, then remove the gusset if need be to finish welding (by that point, the thing shouldn't be moving much more), then add the gusset back in. Good luck.

ETA: And for what it's worth, I have found that clamping things up when you weld doesn't necessarily eliminate welding distortion (at least up to the yield point of the steel) ... what happens is, the weldment just gets "sprung" in the clamps, and then when you release the clamps -- Viola! There's your distortion. It might not distort as much as if you hadn't clamped, but it will almost always still distort, in my limited experience.

Re: Weld pulled the other way?

I'll give you one more worthless opinion. I suspect you may have trouble anticipating the pull in this one since it did not pull like you would have expected and the other one didn't pull the same either, but you may get lucky again. Would it be possible/advisable to redesign the weldment by extending the vertical plate to the bottom of the horizontal plate? Since you lack machining capacity, grind the mating surface of the horizontal plate to the correct angle and bevel the edges. and tack then weld across the bottom and in the elbow. If the heel is too wide, grind it off post weld. Just another opinion worth what you paid for it.

Re: Weld pulled the other way?

Originally Posted by Welder Dave

It was previously suggested that perhaps excess penetration heated the tacks and caused it to pull in what you would normally think is the wrong direction. The distortion caused by the heat doesn't lie. Don't know why you're so hung up on this and getting in a tizzy with people trying to help you. There had to be more concentrated heat on the tacked side to cause it to pull that way. Tacking the gusset in at the outset with everything fully welded afterwards isn't going to effect strength enough to make any difference. Gussets are tacked in place on initial assembly all the time.

I'm with Dave. I would find a way to (temporarily) tack the gusset in place, then weld the bracket most of the way out, then remove the gusset if need be to finish welding (by that point, the thing shouldn't be moving much more), then add the gusset back in. Good luck.

ETA: And for what it's worth, I have found that clamping things up when you weld doesn't necessarily eliminate welding distortion (at least up to the yield point of the steel) ... what happens is, the weldment just gets "sprung" in the clamps, and then when you release the clamps -- Viola! There's your distortion. It might not distort as much as if you hadn't clamped, but it will almost always still distort, in my limited experience.

Re: Weld pulled the other way?

Originally Posted by Welder Dave

It was previously suggested that perhaps excess penetration heated the tacks and caused it to pull in what you would normally think is the wrong direction. The distortion caused by the heat doesn't lie. Don't know why you're so hung up on this and getting in a tizzy with people trying to help you. There had to be more concentrated heat on the tacked side to cause it to pull that way. Tacking the gusset in at the outset with everything fully welded afterwards isn't going to effect strength enough to make any difference. Gussets are tacked in place on initial assembly all the time.

Dave, we’ve already been through this, and I don’t have to explain myself again.

I’m appreciative of those that read and helped with good info.

Re: Weld pulled the other way?

It was previously suggested that perhaps excess penetration heated the tacks and caused it to pull in what you would normally think is the wrong direction. The distortion caused by the heat doesn't lie. Don't know why you're so hung up on this and getting in a tizzy with people trying to help you. There had to be more concentrated heat on the tacked side to cause it to pull that way. Tacking the gusset in at the outset with everything fully welded afterwards isn't going to effect strength enough to make any difference. Gussets are tacked in place on initial assembly all the time.

Re: Weld pulled the other way?

Use the one you have( expendable one) to make a fixture. It might magically be off the perfect amount in the correct direction to self correct on cooling.

Re: Weld pulled the other way?

I did not all replies here
Just do a little weld on side and watch it wiggle back and forth and keep straight on last pass.

It a lot easier to show on job.

Dave

Originally Posted by husq2100

Hey all,

I was welding an outside corner today. Some 3/8" to 1/2 flat bar, only about 3" long each. Im fabricating a bracket for a disc brake caliper. I had it all in place, tacked up on the inside, then removed and welded the outside corner. The two plates only overlap by maybe 1/16" so lots of "corner" I also do one fillet pass on the inside to add a bit more strength. But that gets done last.

Anyway, before doing the root run, I had set 2 bevels (one as a back up incase I bump the main one) to record the angle it was tacked at. What I found is that after each pass on the outside corner, the two pieces were pulling towards each other (to the internal corner)

Why? I would have thought they pull apart, towards the weld...

Re: Weld pulled the other way?

Originally Posted by albrightree

Was this TIG welded ? My unscientific guess would be that there was more internal contracted fusion material than fillet filler material. any gap between the two intersecting corners of the 2 components could cause it to contract in the opposite direction. One possible sign this occurred would be burn through to the side of the joint. I didn't see any in the pictures provided. In Mig or stick welding most of the metal is deposited out at the toes, and the contraction would be in the way we normally see it. Timing , amperage , travel speed. and amount of filler could cause this contrary contraction. Do you have a foot pedal current control, or just set amps, and ON/OFF contactor ?


I do agree with Farmersamm's line of reasoning. Welded things distort , other welded things distort more. Most things I've had to weld that were precision, +or- .001" +or- 1/2 deg. were finished machined after welding. Generally a good idea to retap all threaded holes also. You said you didn't have access to machining for this job, but I think it is still possible to do without machining. Even when work was clamped in a fixture, I've always tacked opposite sides of the joint quickly to minimize contraction to one side.

Maybe show a pic of the two assemblies side by side would help.

Cheers

That’s some really good info, thank you.

Yes TIG, at least 3 passes. 1.6mm filler no weave for root, then 2.4mm filler and weave on subsequent passes. I’m pretty sure I didn’t burn through to the internal corner on the root, but don’t have any pics of that. No foot or amp control during welding. Only downslope 0-15 seconds available

Are you wanting a pic of the first one I made and this one?

Re: Weld pulled the other way?

Was this TIG welded ? My unscientific guess would be that there was more internal contracted fusion material than fillet filler material. any gap between the two intersecting corners of the 2 components could cause it to contract in the opposite direction. One possible sign this occurred would be burn through to the side of the joint. I didn't see any in the pictures provided. In Mig or stick welding most of the metal is deposited out at the toes, and the contraction would be in the way we normally see it. Timing , amperage , travel speed. and amount of filler could cause this contrary contraction. Do you have a foot pedal current control, or just set amps, and ON/OFF contactor ?


I do agree with Farmersamm's line of reasoning. Welded things distort , other welded things distort more. Most things I've had to weld that were precision, +or- .001" +or- 1/2 deg. were finished machined after welding. Generally a good idea to retap all threaded holes also. You said you didn't have access to machining for this job, but I think it is still possible to do without machining. Even when work was clamped in a fixture, I've always tacked opposite sides of the joint quickly to minimize contraction to one side.

Maybe show a pic of the two assemblies side by side would help.

Cheers

Re: Weld pulled the other way?

I've flapped my gums enough on this one. IMHO, "precision" and "welding" don't go together. I've been thru the mill, and learned my lesson.

I promise to keep my mouth shut from here on out.

Re: Weld pulled the other way?

Originally Posted by farmersammm

Anyways, by the looks of it, it's a FWD front end, and those doooooods don't care if anything's straight............they just mess it up the first time they hit the dirt with it ROFL.

I actually do care... that’s why I’m here lol

And it’s not the front

Re: Weld pulled the other way?

Originally Posted by farmersammm

I'm not totally sure you're up with distortion.

You can handle it when doing fitup, and final weldout. Or you can deal with it post weld.

I think that you cannot deal with it post weld........you'd have to heat the bead to shrink it........not something anyone in his right mind would do.

So, I'm thinking you have to deal with it in the fitup. So, we're back to square one..........gotta do a judgement thing on the "lean".

Yep , will give it more lean based off how this one went. I’m still thinking weld direction played a roll, with this one the weld was finished at caliper bolt hole end, the critical end. I do not have amp control during welding. The amps are set for good start and run, but given the size of pieces it’s MUCH hotter at end of run than start. When I did the other piece, I was starting at bolt hole end.

Maybe something to think about...

Re: Weld pulled the other way?

Anyways, by the looks of it, it's a FWD front end, and those doooooods don't care if anything's straight............they just mess it up the first time they hit the dirt with it ROFL.

Re: Weld pulled the other way?

I suppose a guy could take a good protractor, the ones that read in seconds, and measure how much the damn thing pulled, then set it up on the second go-round to offset that pull...............dunno..........

Re: Weld pulled the other way?

Small as that tab is, you can't heat the "free metal" to move it. Any changes have to occur where the bead is.................and ya can't heat a bead.

Re: Weld pulled the other way?

Asking why ? Will not. Necessarily yield a solution. Probably why you you get less theory and more "how to" and prevention answers. Like if you got several the make a fixture off the vehicle.

Re: Weld pulled the other way?

Originally Posted by husq2100

So the first one I did moved bugger all, was good enough for use, the second one fabricated the same way (mirrored part), moved, and im on my way to 10 the same? Yeah nice one mate.

I ask a question on weld distortion and shrinkage, yet there has been little discussion of that, it seems people want to treat the symptom not the cause.

Re grinding out, just as much as a pain as drilling 5 holes in two bits of plate, and either way I have to solve the problem of whats going on, at the very least do something different to change the outcome, so again, hardly on my way to 10.

just remember, anyone can throw stones.....

I'm not totally sure you're up with distortion.

You can handle it when doing fitup, and final weldout. Or you can deal with it post weld.

I think that you cannot deal with it post weld........you'd have to heat the bead to shrink it........not something anyone in his right mind would do.

So, I'm thinking you have to deal with it in the fitup. So, we're back to square one..........gotta do a judgement thing on the "lean".

Re: Weld pulled the other way?

Originally Posted by husq2100

So the first one I did moved bugger all, was good enough for use, the second one fabricated the same way (mirrored part), moved, and im on my way to 10 the same? Yeah nice one mate.

I ask a question on weld distortion and shrinkage, yet there has been little discussion of that, it seems people want to treat the symptom not the cause.

Re grinding out, just as much as a pain as drilling 5 holes in two bits of plate, and either way I have to solve the problem of whats going on, at the very least do something different to change the outcome, so again, hardly on my way to 10.

just remember, anyone can throw stones.....

Apparently, most folk have not run into the issue. Hence, it is your question. You research it and share results it with us.

I was not in any way trying to put you down.

I was literally just grinding a tungsten, thinking hmmm. Why do my tungsten get so heavy when I grind them, they should get lighter.. Not uncommon for me to dip,dip,dip after I start welding again.

Good luck on your supports.