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Re: Going to test a few varnishes

It really is a crap shoot with finishes these days unless you go to the really high end (expensive and fussy), ESPECIALLY for bare metal finishes. I'm going to try the California variant of permalac (low VOC) soon on an outdoor raw steel project at home, and Rustoleum clear enamel on another, I'll let everyone know how it goes. There are surprisingly few real world tests on raw metal finishes to be found online, and almost no long term tests. I was in a similar dilemma recently and went with the two above products due to customer reviews (hard to trust) and general online recommendations. Be sure to update us about the everbrite's long term performance

Re: Going to test a few varnishes

Thanks for the suggestions gents, I'll look into them.

I ordered another product that is used on jewelry and such called Protectaclear by Everbrite.

Attachment 1695516

I got both the spray and in liquid form. Used the same 2 samples, one brushed and a mirror one (well close to mirror anyway).
I used the can on the mirror one and a small paintbrush for the brushed one. I must say that I really liked how it went on with the brush without the fumes as a bonus.
Only one coat on these for now but they suggest 2-3. But as you can see from the small scratches (done with my nail again) it is a lot more resistant. And this is after about 48 hours curing time and they suggest a full 5 days. I'll retest in 3 days to see if it hardened some more.

Attachment 1695517

But all in all I think I will be using this for now. Of course some of the products suggested above might do a better job but they are all a lot more complicated to use for many reasons, mainly in regards to toxicity and room for me plus cost of course.
I'll post more results in a few days.

Thanks again for following and all the help.

Re: Going to test a few varnishes

I had never considered POR15... I've used it on motorcycles a few times (just the black), and MAN is that stuff tough! A buddy of mine didn't keep the petcock hole clean on a bike tank when he POR15'd it, and the tank was trash once it dried.

Re: Going to test a few varnishes

PatriceL-
I have tried many different clear coats over steel. The one fact that I found quite curious is that bare steel will rust under clear coat. (When kept exposed to the weather.) 2 part automotive clear coats, clear powder coat finishes, and different spray on lacquers/varnishes- all eventually allow for the bare steel to rust.
The best scratch proof finish is Cerakote. This is the hardest clear coat that I have found. (it is mostly used to coat weapons). I have used it directly on steel as well as a top coat on 2 part automotive clear coat. Although Cerakote claims superior scratch resistance, it does poorly as a final finish on table tops- it does, in fact, scratch quite easily.
One of the best clear coat finishes that I have found is POR-15 2k urethane CLEAR. (https://www.por15.com/2K-Urethane_p_123.html) It is very hard wearing, scratches like all of the rest, but does a good job on keeping the rust off of bare steel.
POR also have a clear rust preventative coating for bare steel that does a great job of keeping the rust at bay, but unfortunately the clear coating turns yellowish when exposed to sunlight.
I hope that this is helpful to you.

Re: Going to test a few varnishes

Two other clears I've heard nothing but good things about are Permalac and Penetrol. Neither are available where I live, in california, but i did find a california VOC compliant variant of permalac at my local steel supplier, it was $36/32oz about a year ago. I've not had a chance to test it.

Re: Going to test a few varnishes

Thanks SnowBlues, I will coat a few pieces and let them cure for a couple weeks to see if that makes a difference. Not very practical as you say but if it's what it takes.

I am going to try another product too in a few days and will post results here too.

Re: Going to test a few varnishes

I've found modern rattle can paints take much longer to truly cure than product literature leads one to believe. I don't have much experience using Krylon but I know Rustoleum products scratch fairly easily even after 4 days, but given 1.5+ weeks harden up considerably - and this is in a southern california climate. Major pain for sure. IMO modern cheap paint sucks, there was a "golden" age where chemistry was modernized and regulation wasn't so severe, but alas those days are behind us. I remember a friend going to mexico to get lead paint in the 90s, talk about a beautiful always wet finish. Just don't eat the chips, stupid.

Re: Going to test a few varnishes

Yes N2, I ordered a new mask and filters to make sure.

Ok this is the next step, abrasion resistance.
Of course this is far from a proper laboratory measured test, but hopefully it can still give some answers and point me in the right direction to arrive at something I am happy with. This was after a 48 hour cure time.

I discarded the 2 samples that did not "wet" well for this part.
Used a very high tech device to scratch the paint...my fingernail.
Except the w shaped one that was done with a scribe.

Attachment 1695215

And I also did one last one with more of a rubbing motion with my fingernail again across the surface. You can see it at the top of the samples

Attachment 1695216

The general observation is...very disappointing.

1) The UV resistant Gloss: The best one but still a lot easier to scratch than I would have thought or hoped.

2) The Crystal Clear: Not as good as no1 but pretty close.

3) The Clear Glaze: Worst of the 3, even flaked easily and not just on the mirror finish one.

Now I am not giving up altogether on these. I am hoping that maybe I messed up and can improve with the thickness of the coats or the curing time. This is really a lot softer than I would have thought.

Any input is still much appreciated.

More in a few days, thanks for looking.

Re: Going to test a few varnishes

If you can smell paint when you are painting with the resp on then it's not helping any .

Re: Going to test a few varnishes

Brocolli I may try the enamels again but last time I did I did not have much success.

MiteyF, thanks a bunch, I find a VOC filter. I sure misunderstood the explanations I read thinking a P100 would do the job.

Re: Going to test a few varnishes

You should be able to buy VOC filters that will fit the 3M mask you already have. Those are particulate filters and won't help much with painting.

Nice reference photo for the clear coats, look forward to seeing what seems most "durable".

Re: Going to test a few varnishes

If you don't want any yellowing use Clear ENAMEL spray.

It comes in a rattle can as well.

Rustoleum has it and I can actually buy it in California

Re: Going to test a few varnishes

Of course I can't test for long term resistance, yellowing, etc... Only short term results.

Ok here is the latest.

First off my setup, for now anyway. Eventually I'll build something a bit more solid maybe and with doors to close while the sculpture dries to help with dust. If it's worth building it's worth over building right?

Attachment 1695134

And of course the mask I am using. Also something I might upgrade eventually.

Attachment 1695135

Now the 3 products again and the test pieces. Stainless steel (304), one with a brushed finish (3M deburring wheel, 7S) and one with a mirror finish (600 grit on the belt sander and green chrome buffing wheel). All were then cleaned with acetone.

Attachment 1695138

And the results. (3 coats applied with 10 minutes drying time between each)

Attachment 1695139

1) The UV resistant Gloss: On the brushed sample it worked ok, a bit of an orange peel look but that's most likely because I don't know exactly how much to apply with each coat. On the mirror finish though it did not work well at all, pearled a lot, never really wetting until the last coat because of the amount but very bumpy finish.

2) The Crystal Clear: About the same on the brushed sample. The mirror one though was even worst, only pearling even after 3 coats.

3) The Clear Glaze: The winner. By far the best of the 3. Wetting (not sure that's the proper painting term) very well even on the mirror finish.

Now I will let it cure, probably 48 hours unless I should do more?
Then it will be a scratch test.

Feel free if you have any input. Thanks

Re: Going to test a few varnishes

While I haven’t tried your exact three, I have tried a few different manufacturers for clear sealing metal. I wouldn’t think any would stand up to a years weather outside.
But, for metal living outside I did stumble on a clear coat aerosol canned spray paint that has a hardener in its ingredients (like the two part mixes they use in spray-gun systems). It’s called SprayMax 3680061, 2K Urethane Clear Coat, Aerosol (gloss). They also offer a Matte finish. I used it on a auto bumper that I refinished and it’s tough as nails and matches the cars exiting clear coat quite nicely. ( did it a year ago)
The innovative part of the product is that it’s two products in one aerosol can. When your ready to paint you puncture the inside can with a supplied disk with a puncture point, shake and spray.

In my using it I found the pros are it’s the closest thing to spay-gun two part mixes for clear finishing in an aerosol.
The cons are once it’s punctured, you have to use it all as it will setup after a time and be unusable. Using a quality air filtration mask is 100% mandatory 0 exceptions.
The overspray will firmly attach itself to everything it comes in contact with.

I’ve done lots of “regular” aerosol painting and clear coating in my garage (cars out) with no problems, including high temp wrinkle paint.
A 10 to 15 foot clear zone for overspray has worked fine. The overspray dries before it hits the floor and can be swept up.
The SprayMax Clear Coat, Aerosol left a faint coating on items 25 feet away and had to be vigorously scrubbed off.

Hope this info might help.
Good luck!

Re: Going to test a few varnishes

Yes, if the motor is isolated from the propellant you will not blow yourself up.

Take a look at this:http://www.tonkinois.com/gb_algemeen.htm Look at the section on corrosion. American Rope and Tar sells it.

It can be thinned 15% and sprayed. I like Marine Number one but then I'm using it on wood right now.

Re: Going to test a few varnishes

One thing that can't be tested is the 'time' test. How does this one or that one hold up over a long period of time ? That's where you have to rely on the input from someone who may have used a krylon product maybe 5 years ago or something like that. I remember seeing a deal like consumer reports or a similar group doing a long term test on a group of deck sealers. They treated several major brands, all applied as per instructions, then analyzed how each held up after a certain multi-year time frame.

Re: Going to test a few varnishes

Xsbank has valid concerns in an industrial or larger setting. They just don't fit your particular situation.

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Re: Going to test a few varnishes

Thanks Patrick. With what you said (and others privately) the more I think about it the less I am concerned.

As you said, the amount of paint I will be using is minimal. Half a can might be for all 3 coats and all the fumes will be evacuated between them.

The fan I am using is a dust collector made for wood. I am using it for steel myself but with all metal ducts and venting outside. I know wood dust is also very volatile and I don't see how they would make it so that sparks would come in contact with the flow.

I have the ducting set up with gates so that the full force of the fan goes to only one collector being used at the time. And for a 1HP blower that means a high CFM. At the grinder I had to add a mesh screen because a few times it ripped a belt from my hands while changing it. That was a pain to clean from the propeller.

Of course if anyone has other thoughts either way I really would appreciate.

Re: Going to test a few varnishes

Patrice,
Since no one else has chimed in on your concerns about the fumes, I will try to re-start this conversation and offer my point of view.

My opinion is don't worry about it.

Correct me if I am wrong on the following set up.
The way I see your paint box being set up is that the suction for the paint box is the square duct work and is the adapter to the existing round intake for the exhaust fan. The round duct work goes to the squirrel cage blower of your fan and then exits your shop/house. The fan motor is outside the duct work and flow of air for this system.

On to fuel/air mixtures. My understanding is that the mixture will only ignite when the correct concentration of fuel to oxygen is present. If you are using the spray box to draw in fumes and overspray, very little fumes should be dispersed into your work shop. This will depend upon the strength of the blower or Cubic Feet per Minute (or for you metric people Cubic Meters/Liters per Minute).

Your typical sculpture or piece that you are painting will be less than 1 cubic foot. At any given time, you will use less than 1/2 can of spray paint. In between coats or while drying, you will be working on other items and probably going in and out of the shop. This will allow for some air flow in and out of the shop.

If you are concerned about fumes gathering in the shop, you can turn on the exhaust fan while the paint is curing and you are doing other work.

Hopefully others will chime in and help to answer some of your concerns.

Re: Going to test a few varnishes

Tests on hold until I know more about this.

This is my exhaust fan.

Attachment 1694934

Re: Going to test a few varnishes

Originally Posted by Xsbank

So a poster has been advised to build a cardboard box spray booth and the fan is going to suck the fumes out? That should make an interesting effect when the correct concentration of paint propellant reaches the electric motor.

Seriously?

Use Le Tonkinoise Marine Number 1 varnish with a foam brush and live happily ever after.

What? I was suppose to start the test tonight but not I am not sure.

A brushed on finish is interesting but not sure how well it would work for a sculpture with lots on nooks and crannies.

Re: Going to test a few varnishes

Best clear coat I've found and used for several yrs is Flood Penetrol sprayed on with a gun.
Mike

Re: Going to test a few varnishes

So a poster has been advised to build a cardboard box spray booth and the fan is going to suck the fumes out? That should make an interesting effect when the correct concentration of paint propellant reaches the electric motor.

Seriously?

Use Le Tonkinoise Marine Number 1 varnish with a foam brush and live happily ever after.

Re: Going to test a few varnishes

Thanks Mike, I'll do some research about "touch up" paint guns.

Roger, I did figure you were talking to Patrick. I looked it up and Canadian Tire does have something similar. I thought I would have to spend a lot more to give it a quick try. Definitely something I'll try after the cans. So many things to learn...
Thanks

Re: Going to test a few varnishes

Originally Posted by PatriceL

Roger I don't want to get ahead of myself too much, I need to give rattle cans a good try first. But when I am ready to move on to a better setup, would a airbrush do the trick for smaller sculptures or do is the next step up a full size paint gun?
Thanks.

Sorry Patrice. PSA is also a “Pat” and several of my remarks were directed to him, but since you ask.

Rattle cans are a fixed spray for the most part. Some of the better brands have an adjustable fan pattern but it is rare and the pressure is what it is with no adjustment. Not a big deal for the intended audience, but for those of us doing detailed work the lack of adjustment can be tricky to work around. Hence the “trim gun” and air brush. Good news though, because the Horrible Fright trim gun and their airbrush are really decent quality for short money. I assume Canadien Tire has a similar offering.

https://www.harborfreight.com/adjust...gun-92126.html

https://www.harborfreight.com/deluxe...kit-95810.html

The air brush is a “dual action” meaning the trigger can control both fluid and air independently, which is a desired feature.