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Re: Looking to buy an ornamental bender ( Need recommendations)

Originally Posted by shortfuse

Vaughn, why couldn't one merely taper the starting end of the scroll to make it more aesthetic or does the bar need to have a squared end for the scroller to grab it? I ask because I have never used one of the commercial scrolling tools.

The end can be rounded. I've done it, but it does require a bit of more care to make sure things don't slip out.

Re: Looking to buy an ornamental bender ( Need recommendations)

VaughnT

Originally Posted by VaughnT

It's not your thread either, so what gives you the right to hijack it?
. . . Again, you show your ignorance.

I cede my ignorance - because, 'you are always Windward . . .'

hth


Opus




ps - reading for content is not your long suit . . .





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Re: Looking to buy an ornamental bender ( Need recommendations)

Originally Posted by OPUS FERRO

First Order of Bis - this is not your Thread . . .

It's not your thread either, so what gives you the right to hijack it?

Unfortunately [?] the Political Thread is no longer - your comment
solidly belongs there . . .

Nothing you or I have said has been remotely political, so why would you make such an amazingly ignorant comment? More importantly, why are you so afraid to start a thread of your own where this issue can be discussed in detail, or not, by those so inclined to discuss it?

Current forging craft - cannot reproduce true Wrought Iron forms -
because Steel does not forge akin to true Wrought Iron . . .

This is an abject undeniable falsehood. You're either lying outright, or showing your ignorance of the subject. There is no shape or form forged in wrought iron that can't also be forged with modern steels.

My guess - none of your products are made of true Wrought Iron -
so your [aggravated][I] purity is compromised . . . ?

Again, you show your ignorance.

Re: Looking to buy an ornamental bender ( Need recommendations)

VaughnT

Originally Posted by VaughnT

Enough with the hijacking of this thread . . . start a new thread and
I'll be happy to comment therein.

First Order of Bis - this is not your Thread . . .

Unfortunately [?] the Political Thread is no longer - your comment
solidly belongs there . . .

You should - 'remove your hood' - before you type . . .

I'm speaking to the history/provenance of the craft - because
Wrought Iron - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrought_iron -
is literally/existentially history . . .

Current forging craft - cannot reproduce true Wrought Iron forms -
because Steel does not forge akin to true Wrought Iron . . .

My guess - none of your products are made of true Wrought Iron -
so your [aggravated] purity is compromised . . . ?

If - 'you are going to Pee into the Wind' - don't do it on a ridge . . .

hth


Opus



ps - Again, this is my current [post Paley] metal influence . . .

https://www.google.com/search?q=sant...w=1165&bih=888









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Re: Looking to buy an ornamental bender ( Need recommendations)

Originally Posted by OPUS FERRO

Opus

You can like whoever you like. I'm not at all obligated to like who you dictate I should like. Paley did some good and most bad, imo. And if you actually stop to look at the majority of work, it's not even blacksmithing. Most of what he's known for is straight-up fabricated from flat sheet and industrial scrap.

Enough with the hijacking of this thread. If you want to talk about modern art and the differences between it and forged work, lauding Paley all the while, start a new thread and I'll be happy to comment therein.

Re: Looking to buy an ornamental bender ( Need recommendations)

Originally Posted by OPUS FERRO

VaughnT



The 'dumb enough' people - were/are - https://www.si.edu/ . . .

The Renwick Gallery Gates were the largest Wrought commission in the U.S.
for over fifty years [completed '74] . . . I had only hammering for two years . . .

His/this work - is considered the Renaissance of broad interest in true wrought
forging . . .

Your current voice may not have an audience - if not for Paley's work . .


If your bladder still has force - excoriate this guy . . .
https://www.google.com/search?q=sant...w=1167&bih=894

hth


Opus



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That’s not even an apples to oranges comparison. It’s more like mid evil being compared to UFO technology on steroroids in a futuristic art museum.

Re: Looking to buy an ornamental bender ( Need recommendations)

VaughnT

Originally Posted by VaughnT

I can argue with it all day long . . . only reason he has any kind of name
is because he got in with the right crowd.

. . . Just because people are dumb enough to buy his work . . . he was
able to talk people into buying his work.

And now that they have bought his work, they have no choice but to hold
him up high because they don't want to lose out on what they paid for
whatever he made for them.

The 'dumb enough' people - were/are - https://www.si.edu/ . . .

The Renwick Gallery Gates were the largest Wrought commission in the U.S.
for over fifty years [completed '74] . . . I had only hammering for two years . . .

His/this work - is considered the Renaissance of broad interest in true wrought
forging . . .

Your current voice may not have an audience - if not for Paley's work . .


If your bladder still has force - excoriate this guy . . .
https://www.google.com/search?q=sant...w=1167&bih=894

hth


Opus



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Re: Looking to buy an ornamental bender ( Need recommendations)

Originally Posted by OPUS FERRO

How can you argue with this . . . Opus.

I can argue with it all day long. He did some good work, but he did some truly gawdawful work, too. He embraced the wretched "post modern" garbage and the only reason he has any kind of name is because he got in with the right crowd. Now everyone has to claim he's some awesome smith / artist or they'll lose their investment. Just because people are dumb enough to buy his work doesn't mean he's actually a good artist, it just means that he was able to talk people into buying his work. And now that they have bought his work, they have no choice but to hold him up high because they don't want to lose out on what they paid for whatever he made for them.

Re: Looking to buy an ornamental bender ( Need recommendations)

VaughnT

Originally Posted by VaughnT

Don't much care for Paley's work, to be honest . . .

How can you argue with this . . .

https://www.google.com/search?q=albe...A_enUS779US779


Opus



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Re: Looking to buy an ornamental bender ( Need recommendations)

Don't much care for Paley's work, to be honest.

Samuel Yellin is a legend, of course, and more than earned his stripes.

Scrolls, contrary some, are very much an integral part of the design and every blacksmith throughout history has used them. What makes a spiral versus a scroll, that's really depends on what look you're going for, so don't let anyone tell you that one way is wrong.

For example, here's something from France, mid-1800's, that uses spirals with decorative finials. The pattern repeats so only two actual spirals are needed to make up a panel as large as you could want.



I think a lot of people go wrong by thinking they need infinite variety because they never know what size project they might want to build. The truth is that a small handful of sizes can be made up in advance, and by combining them in interesting ways you'll be able to make pert near anything you could imagine. And if you do find that a project requires something slightly different..... it's short work to simply make up something different then and there.

When doing scroll work, how the scroll looks will depend a lot on the size stock you use, which in turn depends on the nature of the project. If you're doing a sign bracket that's 12' overhead, you have to build big because the viewer's perspective is going to make any small ironwork disappear. Similarly, if you're building a lamp pedestal, you want to use smaller dimensional iron that's easy to move but still has the right look for its size.

There's about a million ways to go, but I always recommend starting small since that's the easiest way to learn.


Is there a commercial bender available for less than $500? Not that I've seen. Or, at least not one that I'd trust to last more than a few minutes.

Re: Looking to buy an ornamental bender ( Need recommendations)

Arc_Shepherd

Originally Posted by Arc_Shepherd

Care to explain why they are crap and what you mean by investing in design?

Ornamental Iron - is fake Wrought Iron . . . and cold-rolled scrolls are the
Wal-Mart of Ornamental Iron = the very bottom of metal work . . .

Meet . . . Sam and Albert . . .

https://www.google.com/search?q=samu...w=1185&bih=932

https://www.albertpaley.com/

Regardless, of your entry level - if you want to learn welded metal work - you
have to invest time - in what is good . . .

Design - should be developed concurrent/concomitantly - with a nascent hand.

hth


Opus



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Re: Looking to buy an ornamental bender ( Need recommendations)

I don't quite understand why more folk do not make their own. Those benders for sale lock folk into a single scroll. The capacity of those machines really doesn't require much leverage certainly not a handle for turning. The only thing the offer is consistency.

I have the HF. It sucked. Offered a consistent flat spot at the tail of each scroll. Modded it to do 3/16, after I noticed 1/8 was invisible from a distance. Also, it got worn and would not hold 1/8. Then the handle stripped and would not rotate the pattern.

The experience, encouraged me to make my own collection, when jobs with varied scroll patterns arose.... First, benders with handles, then mostly manually wrap around style.

The flat end is an eyesore. And spirals are not scrolls. Spirals being passed off as scrolls hurt my eyes too.

I guess i am a scroll snob.

A ring roller is a better investment...you can made rings,scrolls snd scroll patterns with it.

Re: Looking to buy an ornamental bender ( Need recommendations)

Originally Posted by OPUS FERRO

Rarambula23




Scrolls are crap - invest in design - and not perfunctory tools.

hth


Opus









.

Care to explain why they are crap and what you mean by investing in design?

Re: Looking to buy an ornamental bender ( Need recommendations)

Is there a quality scroll bender on the market below $500 that bends thick heavy stuff?

Re: Looking to buy an ornamental bender ( Need recommendations)

Rarambula23

Originally Posted by Rarambula23

I'm looking to purchase a smaller ornamental bender for . . .
to add some decorative pieces - to my work to make it stand
out . . .

Let me know what you use and why . . .

Scrolls are crap - invest in design - and not perfunctory tools.

hth


Opus









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Re: Looking to buy an ornamental bender ( Need recommendations)

I still want to do it...right after I build the one that runs on waste oil.

Re: Looking to buy an ornamental bender ( Need recommendations)

Originally Posted by Arc_Shepherd

Do propane forges require mixed gas like an oxy fuel rig? Ex oxy cylinder required?

No.

A venturi burner runs straight from your propane tank and draws in air through the burner as a result of the "venturi" effect. They're the most common because they're the most economical, but you can also get a "blown" burner that put a fan in the pipeline. Both use regular ol' air to maximize the combustion of the propane, but the blown burners are more efficient and require less propane to get to the same temps.

If you can run a propane bbq grill, you can run a propane forge. The only difference between the two is the burner and insulation.

Re: Looking to buy an ornamental bender ( Need recommendations)

Not usually.... google home made forges and you'll find everything from brake rotor forges that use coal to some very fancy propane versions that use forced air from fans to up the oxygen content. Some day I'd still like to build one that uses 02, but the rest of these guys will tell you not to hold your breath waiting... it's on a very long list of projects. If you're new to the site, read through the 2 forging threads above in the "Stickies" section... lots of info there.

Re: Looking to buy an ornamental bender ( Need recommendations)

Do propane forges require mixed gas like an oxy fuel rig? Ex oxy cylinder required?

Re: Looking to buy an ornamental bender ( Need recommendations)

Originally Posted by Reebz

What type of scroll bender is that?

That's a "home made" jobbie from a Youtube guy. He makes a ton of equipment and seems to do a pretty good job of it.

Originally Posted by Arc_Shepherd

I'd love to learn to blacksmith, however I run into logistical issues when I think about investing in tools. I've considered getting an oxy fuel rig, but I'd like to store the tanks outside and I don't have the space. Storing flammable gasses vs inert gasses is a big setup in in the safety department esp in residential zones.

Getting a propane forge set up isn't very expensive or dangerous. If you can run a propane grill in your neighborhood, you can run a propane forge. One's no more troublesome than the next.

As for tooling, it's really a question of perseverance. The Sutton Hoo hoard, for example, was all made with next to nothing in the way of tooling, certainly nothing you couldn't find at the local hardware store. But what they lacked in fancy equipment, they more than made up for in dedication and sticktoittiveness! There's a lot of neat stuff you can build that's still small and manageable, like in the Bent Ironwork book I referenced above.

Re: Looking to buy an ornamental bender ( Need recommendations)

Originally Posted by VaughnT

All commercially-available benders operate on the same principle -- making it really easy to see which scrolls are machine-made and which are forged by a blacksmith.

I'd love to learn to blacksmith, however I run into logistical issues when I think about investing in tools. I've considered getting an oxy fuel rig, but I'd like to store the tanks outside and I don't have the space. Storing flammable gasses vs inert gasses is a big setup in in the safety department esp in residential zones.

I think we can agree there is something awesome about the look of forced pieces.

Re: Looking to buy an ornamental bender ( Need recommendations)

Homemade jigs for simple repetition ....



Diacro for manual “production” work..




and the “original” smaller Hossfeld #1 or Junior....





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Re: Looking to buy an ornamental bender ( Need recommendations)

I bought this shop built one for $5..




and sold it last fall for $195...




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Re: Looking to buy an ornamental bender ( Need recommendations)

Originally Posted by VaughnT

It's not a question of tapering the ends, but how the machines hold the end so they can begin bending. It's basically like clamping the end in a vise and then scrolling the rest -- no matter what the rest looks like, you'll always have that flat spot which was clamped in the vise.

It may be too much trouble, but what if one made a triangular wedge(s) to slip in the vise end to take up the space left by the taper, then it would have a "flat, square" end to grab. Might prevent the ugly straight end.

Re: Looking to buy an ornamental bender ( Need recommendations)

Vaughn
What type of scroll bender is that? Nice