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Re: Home A/C TIG

Originally Posted by FlyFishn

If you were looking for one machine to hopefully not out-grow that was capable of 1/4" single pass on aluminum what specs would you recommend? If 200a is the bottom, and preheat required for better results, then it sounds 225-250a might be better - plus a higher duty cycle? Or could you get by with, say, 35% duty cycle @ 225-250a? 200a with a 35% duty cycle seems a bit too light. For smaller stuff I'm sure it would work fine, but going back to the "one machine" scenario it might leave too much to be desired with much heavier aluminum.

Thoughts?

250 amps minimum if you KNOW you're going to be doing 1/4" fillet welds and lots of them. A duty cycle of 60% at 200 amps. A quality machine will have some in reserve. But you'll probably need 3 phase for a 250 amp machine... at least for most models sold in Europe.

You have to be realistic about what you're using the machine for, I keep saying. In my mind, my shop would have a Dynasty 280 or a Lorch T300, but realistically, I barely ever need 200 amps. I had a 250 amp Esab for years before I got the Lorch, too.
I also like the idea that I can run the HT200 off a domestic supply, should I ever need it...

Oh and i do use the pulse MIG setup for bigger jobs, too, since doing long 1/4" TIG fillets is hot and tedious!

So yeah... money no object for home shop would probably be a Dynasty 280 with auto-line, that way it will run off whatever power supply.
Being more realistic, it's back to Dynasty 210, Esab ET220i, HTP 221.

Re: Home A/C TIG

Originally Posted by Meltedmetal

I don't do much aluminum and I know everyone loves their TIG welders but if one had some 1/4" plus aluminum to weld wouldn't it make sense, especially for a hobbyist, to MIG weld it with a spool gun? Just askin'.

That would make sense, except Mig is a process I wont have for quite some time. I don't mean to hijack the thread, I think my last post is in-line with the original subject, but maybe at least this doesn't diverge too far. In my case - the "gap" I am trying to fill is a lot of capability with aluminum welding. I have all my steel welding sufficiently covered with stick. If stick was a better process for aluminum (it can be done, I need to work with it so I have some experience with it just to have it) I would be content with running just stick for a while. That isn't the case. I'd like to weld everything from sheet metal to structural stuff (angle, bar, thicker plate - and by "thicker" I mean thicker than "sheet metal" - maybe 1/8" to 1/4") with one machine. There is more flexibility in what one can weld with Tig than any other process so my decision is to concentrate on that. I had another thread about going with a multi-process machine that includes Mig so I have it, but going back to stick being good for me for steel I am content with setting my flux core machine to the side and just running stick (its a light flux core only, not able to run gas). So for stick on steel being good for me I am not loosing much loosing Mig in a multi-process unit. That lets me open the doors more on a better Tig unit so that is where I am - and you can run stick with a Tig machine, also. At the end of the week I'll have 2 stick machines (and DC-only Tig on the new one, but that won't run aluminum) so a nice Tig machine would give me 3x stick machines. That might be a bit overkill looking at just the stick process, but each has its niche. Down the road a Mig might be in the cards - but its pretty low on the priority list. For a better equipped shop/garage that does a lot of structural aluminum - does Mig + spool gun make more sense? Yeah. Not for me, I don't have a well-equipped shop/garage - I'm growing it in time and Mig doesn't fit at the moment.

Re: Home A/C TIG

I don't do much aluminum and I know everyone loves their TIG welders but if one had some 1/4" plus aluminum to weld wouldn't it make sense, especially for a hobbyist, to MIG weld it with a spool gun? Just askin'.

Re: Home A/C TIG

Originally Posted by Munkul

200 amps will see you through on up to 1/4" alloy, you will be at its limit there and will need pre-heat on big sections, but a quality machine can do it just fine.

If you were looking for one machine to hopefully not out-grow that was capable of 1/4" single pass on aluminum what specs would you recommend? If 200a is the bottom, and preheat required for better results, then it sounds 225-250a might be better - plus a higher duty cycle? Or could you get by with, say, 35% duty cycle @ 225-250a? 200a with a 35% duty cycle seems a bit too light. For smaller stuff I'm sure it would work fine, but going back to the "one machine" scenario it might leave too much to be desired with much heavier aluminum.

Thoughts?

Re: Home A/C TIG

Originally Posted by Kelvin

...a "small" step up gets you more than double the duty cycle.

Lincoln SW200:
25% D.C. at 200A

Syncrowave 250:
60% D.C. at 200A

It looks like the SW200 also maxes out at 200A (which I would consider marginal for aluminum) whereas the Sync250 goes to 310A (at about 25% D.C.)...

Just about all dual voltage inverter power supplies have crap duty cycles. However 220/240 volt power supplies with the higher duty cycles run badly on 115/120 input voltage. Those bigger machines are not very portable either.

Re: Home A/C TIG

Originally Posted by Kelvin

...a "small" step up gets you more than double the duty cycle.

Lincoln SW200:
25% D.C. at 200A

Syncrowave 250:
60% D.C. at 200A

It looks like the SW200 also maxes out at 200A (which I would consider marginal for aluminum) whereas the Sync250 goes to 310A (at about 25% D.C.)...

I was comparing to the "new" syncrowave 210... which is also very weak on duty cycle. The 250 is a "proper" machine IMO.

My Lorch handytig only has 200 amps... but quite capable since its rated at 40% duty at 40 degree C ambient. In reality, it'll happily sit at at 200 amps forever, in the climate we have over here. It's marginal for 1/4" or big castings, but most of what I do is 1/8" and it sits around 120-150 amps on that.

If i did loads of 1/4", I'd want 250+ amps. But partly why some of these inverters max at 220 amps... 220 is enough to get 1/4" properly and not feel short changed.

Re: Home A/C TIG

Originally Posted by Munkul

I wouldn't put the Lincoln SW200 in the same category as any of those machines listed... it's a very basic machine and crap duty cycle. Maybe similar to a base spec syncrowave...

...a "small" step up gets you more than double the duty cycle.

Lincoln SW200:
25% D.C. at 200A

Syncrowave 250:
60% D.C. at 200A

It looks like the SW200 also maxes out at 200A (which I would consider marginal for aluminum) whereas the Sync250 goes to 310A (at about 25% D.C.)...

Re: Home A/C TIG

I wouldn't put the Lincoln SW200 in the same category as any of those machines listed... it's a very basic machine and crap duty cycle. Maybe similar to a base spec syncrowave, but the syncrowave has more options.

I'd put the Esab ET220i, the Dynasty 210 and the HTP 221 in the same category, they're proper "nice" single phase inverters.

Re: Home A/C TIG

Weld some aluminum and you will find out. Aloooominum sucks that heat up, duty cycle is part of the equation too.

I have an old Airco 250 that provides 300 amps AC squarewave . On cold mornings in the shop ; 1/2" to 1" thick sealing bars, and transmission housings, auto wheels, and other stuff take quite a while at full pedal stomp to get the puddle wetting properly.

A lot depends on what your hobby is too. My old neighbor had a drag car for a hobby, he was an truck mechanic. His car must have been about 1000hp, but he was just a "Hobbyist" with as much invested in his car as in his house, some people are more dedicated "Hobbyists" than others.

"I'll never need more amps than I have now" No welder ever said , without retracting, regretting, and or forgetting at some point.

Sub $1000 Machines AHP, and Primeweld

$2000 ish Lincoln SW200, Miller Syncrowave 210, HTP221 , ESAB 220i AC/DC

Money is no object , INVERTIG 400 AC/DC, Miller dynasty 210, 280, 700 ???

The HTP seems to have a large following, and probably the best deal in under $3000 class

Re: Home A/C TIG

Originally Posted by FlyFishn

What I'd like to know is what a hobbyist legitimately welds on with a machine running 400 amps

3/8" aluminum ... or 1/4" if you're in a hurry.

Aluminum castings.

What qualifies as "legitimate" in FlyFishWorld? I want to make sure I'm "in compliance" with my (gasp) 465A welder.

Re: Home A/C TIG

I've ALWAYS managed to make 200 amps AC TIG work for my (profit making) part time work... the odd time it's been a big job, I use the 400 amp MIG instead.

I'd reccomend a quality single phase 200-230 amp machine, from Lincoln, Miller, HTP, any of the bigger names... Dynasty 210 or Lorch/Tweco Arcmaster 220 would be my personal choice, but they're all good. As long as they're either European or American built.

200 amps will see you through on up to 1/4" alloy, you will be at its limit there and will need pre-heat on big sections, but a quality machine can do it just fine. Be realistic about what you'll use it for. I always want the biggest and best, but I have other things to buy to grow my shop first... machine tools, bigger plasma, sheet metal machines, etc.

At some point I'll buy a 250-300 amp 3 phase TIG set again, I've had a couple of them through my shop but didn't see the need to hang onto them. Again, I'm just being realistic about what I use my TIG set for.

A rotary phase converter makes a lot of sense for running 3 phase motors on lathes, mills etc, but makes less sense for running welders... IMO makes no sense at all for a home shop unless you want to run big lathes etc too. Just be realistic about what you need, vs what you want*.

*unless you're Oscar, he's a special case

Re: Home A/C TIG

Originally Posted by psacustomcreations

Here you go Terry, Oscar and of course CEP. This just popped up in my Facebook feed.

Well hobbyist welders are real welders too. They just don't have to rely on it for their primary income.

Re: Home A/C TIG

Originally Posted by Lis2323

I fail to see why Oscar or any other hobbyist here need to justify or explain their choice of machines. The same concept would apply to guns, car, boats, trucks and booze.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Here you go Terry, Oscar and of course CEP. This just popped up in my Facebook feed.

Attachment 1726834

Re: Home A/C TIG

Originally Posted by slodat

I do exactly this. I have a 15HP lathe running off an RPC with no issues. My experience is a 20HP load is about the max a guy can reliably run on a typical 200a single phase service.

20HP isn't all that much electrical load on it's own though. That's only ~14kW. 100A service can support 24kW. 200A service can support 48 kW. Unless perhaps it's a hard-starting motor, or you are referring to some thing else?

Re: Home A/C TIG

Originally Posted by FlyFishn

You're not going to run a 10-20hp electric motor off a phase converter on singe phase. The infrastructure won't support it even if you could get a big enough breaker and big enough phase converter.

I do exactly this. I have a 15HP lathe running off an RPC with no issues. My experience is a 20HP load is about the max a guy can reliably run on a typical 200a single phase service.

Re: Home A/C TIG

Originally Posted by Lis2323

I fail to see why Oscar or any other hobbyist here need to justify or explain their choice of machines. The same concept would apply to guns, car, boats, trucks and booze.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Hey... I resemble that remark!

Re: Home A/C TIG

Originally Posted by FlyFishn

What I'd like to know is what a hobbyist legitimately welds on with a machine running 400 amps, or in other words - beyond the mid-200 amp range that even a commercial shop type range machine would run. If you don't need the amps, but need a higher duty cycle at lower amps - same question. What do you weld that legitimately needs that machine? Running a bead on a 2" thick bar at 400 amps just to do it? Or are you sticking parts together where the welds need that much juice?

I fail to see why Oscar or any other hobbyist here need to justify or explain their choice of machines. The same concept would apply to guns, car, boats, trucks and booze.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Re: Home A/C TIG

Originally Posted by FlyFishn

What I'd like to know is what a hobbyist legitimately welds on with a machine running 400 amps, or in other words - beyond the mid-200 amp range that even a commercial shop type range machine would run. If you don't need the amps, but need a higher duty cycle at lower amps - same question. What do you weld that legitimately needs that machine? Running a bead on a 2" thick bar at 400 amps just to do it? Or are you sticking parts together where the welds need that much juice?

Absolutely nothing, for now. These are toys for me, for now. I know the idea is unfathomable to most here, because they see them as only tools that must be used to make money, a primary income. That is just not how I see them.

Re: Home A/C TIG

Originally Posted by Oscar

Originally Posted by M J D

The power isn't completely lost as that's what is making your third leg. Either way, not a very efficient way to run a welder. Kind of like running an air compressor off of a generator to run air tools.

Originally Posted by Oscar

Very true, but it's a non-issue in a game where you have to pay to play. Luckily WeldingWeb has this crazy hobbyist that does all the things other hobbyists can't do.

...

What I'd like to know is what a hobbyist legitimately welds on with a machine running 400 amps, or in other words - beyond the mid-200 amp range that even a commercial shop type range machine would run. If you don't need the amps, but need a higher duty cycle at lower amps - same question. What do you weld that legitimately needs that machine? Running a bead on a 2" thick bar at 400 amps just to do it? Or are you sticking parts together where the welds need that much juice?

Re: Home A/C TIG

Originally Posted by M J D

The power isn't completely lost as that's what is making your third leg. Either way, not a very efficient way to run a welder. Kind of like running an air compressor off of a generator to run air tools.

Originally Posted by Oscar

Very true, but it's a non-issue in a game where you have to pay to play. Luckily WeldingWeb has this crazy hobbyist that does all the things other hobbyists can't do.

...

Re: Home A/C TIG

Originally Posted by Oscar

Yup, right around there. This 30HP RPC uses 13A just spinning idling, but I do not believe it is lost current under actual operation. No factual evidence for that statement, just a hunch. In any event it is rated for FLA of ~72A @ 230V input, with a 1.15 service factor. So for now, it is fine for my purposes. I'm quite happy.

The power isn't completely lost as that's what is making your third leg. Either way, not a very efficient way to run a welder. Kind of like running an air compressor off of a generator to run air tools.

Re: Home A/C TIG

Originally Posted by FlyFishn

Fair enough.

Using some logic from the thread in the link below:
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...er-use-101014/

The load current conversion (single phase) is about 1.73x the load (3 phase). Idle current (single phase input, no load) for a 10hp RPC is about 3.5a, on the high end. So doing the math:
36a (3ph) x 1.73 = 62.28
+ 3.5a (1ph) idle
= 65.78 amps draw on your single phase.

That isn't nearly as bad as I would have guessed, but still just a wild guess based on some quick "internet research" (may not be very accurate, but sounds like logical math anyway).

Yup, right around there. This 30HP RPC uses 13A just spinning idling, but I do not believe it is lost current under actual operation. No factual evidence for that statement, just a hunch. In any event it is rated for FLA of ~72A @ 230V input, with a 1.15 service factor. So for now, it is fine for my purposes. I'm quite happy.

Re: Home A/C TIG

Originally Posted by Oscar

The machine is rated at 36A when running on 3-Φ 230V. I haven't measured it, but I am very confident that is accurate. These are upper-echelon machines who's specs can be relied upon. Might even be less because where I live the lowest input voltage I've seen coming in is 243V, average 245-247, and have seen as high as 249V. I will eventually have answers to those questions, but right now I don't. Interestingly the panel on my house was installed on a late-Friday afternoon back in the mid-90's (), and long story short, it should be about 125-150A electrical service, maybe, at most. I doubt it is 200A because they used 1/0 aluminum wire coming in from the transformer, which is in a neighbor's backyard a few houses down.

Fair enough.

Using some logic from the thread in the link below:
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...er-use-101014/

The load current conversion (single phase) is about 1.73x the load (3 phase). Idle current (single phase input, no load) for a 10hp RPC is about 3.5a, on the high end. So doing the math:
36a (3ph) x 1.73 = 62.28
+ 3.5a (1ph) idle
= 65.78 amps draw on your single phase.

That isn't nearly as bad as I would have guessed, but still just a wild guess based on some quick "internet research" (may not be very accurate, but sounds like logical math anyway).

Re: Home A/C TIG

Originally Posted by FlyFishn

Just out of curiosity - what are your current specs? For the welder on the top end - what does it pull on 3 phase? And what are you pulling on single phase at that current from the phase converter supplying the power to the welder - again, at the top end?

What amp service are you running from the power company (supply from the meter)? 200 amps? Or something else?

The machine is rated at 36A when running on 3-Φ 230V. I haven't measured it, but I am very confident that is accurate. These are upper-echelon machines who's specs can be relied upon. Might even be less because where I live the lowest input voltage I've seen coming in is 243V, average 245-247, and have seen as high as 249V. I will eventually have answers to those questions, but right now I don't. Interestingly the panel on my house was installed on a late-Friday afternoon back in the mid-90's (), and long story short, it should be about 125-150A electrical service, maybe, at most. I doubt it is 200A because they used 1/0 aluminum wire coming in from the transformer, which is in a neighbor's backyard a few houses down.

Re: Home A/C TIG

Originally Posted by Oscar

Very true, but it's a non-issue in a game where you have to pay to play.

Just out of curiosity - what are your current specs? For the welder on the top end - what does it pull on 3 phase? And what are you pulling on single phase at that current from the phase converter supplying the power to the welder - again, at the top end?

What amp service are you running from the power company (supply from the meter)? 200 amps? Or something else?