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Re: Square/Rectangular Steel Tubing Start & Stop Points

Originally Posted by plumbing101mike

I have many hours on an AC only Lincoln Tombstone welder. They are not magical, but they will definitely do the job for you. I have never used the DC version of the tombstone welder, but I am assuming that it is roughly the same quality as their AC only.

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Same here, they work fine. When I got out of the Air Force in '94, the first job I got that needed a lot of welding had only an AC Lincoln buzz box. Built a lot of stuff for them including a roll-back wrecker.

Re: Square/Rectangular Steel Tubing Start & Stop Points

Originally Posted by dunn

Thanks, William! I had done better with 7018 than 7014 with practice beads on flat metal, and since 7018 is stronger anyway, I decided to start trying with that. I think I've done enough with it that I'll notice more differences between different rod types than before, so I'll certainly try some 7014, which I only have in 1/8" anyway and you've already answered that one!



What I want to do is get really good with TIG. That's the end result of my journey though. From what I've seen, I don't think I could find one experienced welder on these forums that doesn't know stick. I figured stick must be easier than TIG. For these reasons I started with stick welding. I figured it should be good for putting together some tools stand for the garage, and then I might branch out to TIG with a little bit of experience under my belt.



My tombstone does do DC as well as AC. I noticed in some videos even from WeldingTipsAndTricks that when showing simple no frills stick welding, he had a voltage boost on his welder for starting and when getting too close during a bead. I don't have that, but I do have a brand new AC/DC tombstone which people say is good for just plain old stick welding. I hope everyone advising is taking into account that that's the machine I have, and not a fancy one with many settings.



I'm quite sure my technique of going round and round holes until they fill in is probably wrong. It doesn't work all the time either!

Thanks for the help,
-- Dunn

I have many hours on an AC only Lincoln Tombstone welder. They are not magical, but they will definitely do the job for you. I have never used the DC version of the tombstone welder, but I am assuming that it is roughly the same quality as their AC only.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Re: Square/Rectangular Steel Tubing Start & Stop Points

Since you are just starting out, 6011 or 6010 is a great all-purpose rod. It puts a very small amount of slag out so you are not fighting it. You have the ability to weld downhill with it also. I would couple that with 6013 or 7014 as a second pass over the same weld. The more experience you get the less you will need to bother with a second pass as you will be able to do a fine job in one pass comma but since you're just starting out I would recommend the two pass method. The first time welding over at joint is your first pass and it will fill in all of the gaps. Clean it up let it cool and then go over it with a filler Rod like a 6013 or a 7014. Once you gain more experience 7018 would definitely be the go-to rod. I have Built Trailers hauling everything from golf carts to backhoes and all of these rods will do the job just fine if you take the time to make sure that each weld is a good weld.

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Re: Square/Rectangular Steel Tubing Start & Stop Points

Originally Posted by dunn

1" thick, so I get used to building up weld beads, or 1" wide so I can cheaply practice a lot of lap joints? Thanks, achirdo!

-- Dunn

1" wide and maybe 3/16 or 1/4 thick. Around here I can get 20' for around $15. That's what the school I went to used for practice pieces

Re: Square/Rectangular Steel Tubing Start & Stop Points

For financial benefits. get some 16 or 14 g tubing at 3/4 or 1 inch sq.. Cut 3 to 4 inch coupons. Start using them wall to wall and welding between them. This will give you the effect of thicker metal and give you the feel of welding the thin stuff. It will also allow you to feel/practice how to weld on the thicker parts of the metal and wash the puddle over to the thinner. It will also give long seems to weld. You can even do tees by laying one on top of the other off set. Thus you have 2 tees you can perform, front and back.

You are practicing so many different Joints. Butt joints and edges will give the most problems. Tees will be easier.

I stick weld thin stuff regularly with 3/32 7018. Find the puddle and concentrate it on the heaviest metal. Depending on joint construction, the Heaviest part will be a corner or the flat surface Then washing the puddle up to the thinner edge.

Butt joints are different since both parts are equally thin.

You will get the hang of it and run some nice beads on thin stock. I posted some examples many years ago when I used to make lots of A/C cages from 1/16 x1/2 and 3/4 tubing.

Good Luck

Re: Square/Rectangular Steel Tubing Start & Stop Points

Originally Posted by achirdo

This. Weld up a couple more pads to help you be able to follow lines, and watch the puddle. Next I would try and do some lap joints. 1" flat bar is pretty cheap material to use

1" thick, so I get used to building up weld beads, or 1" wide so I can cheaply practice a lot of lap joints? Thanks, achirdo!

-- Dunn

Re: Square/Rectangular Steel Tubing Start & Stop Points

Originally Posted by tbone550

I just saw this thread. A couple of random comments and I'll let you guys continue.

1) Your original question about wrapping corners. I try to wrap corners whenever what I'm building is going to have a rough life. Cracks often start at corners; no use giving them a weak spot to help them start. I don't necessarily go from middle of flat to middle of flat, though. Something more like 3/4 of the way down the length of one flat to 3/4 of the way down the length of the next one, for example, can make more of the length of the bead be under your easiest area to see and control.

Thanks, T-Bone! So, that means going the length of one full side without that length stopping or starting on a corner. If you're doing that, do you tack at that convenient place of transition on the sides, or do you tack on the corners and just run over it when welding the beads?

Originally Posted by tbone550

2) As you have surmised, your question is well ahead of your abilities. I'm glad to see people not jumping hard on you about talking about building a trailer with welds like those on the pictures. Not that they wouldn't be right, but rather that it doesn't help to crucify beginners. It wasn't that long ago that any new person wanting to build a trailer was well and truly tarred and feathered here, way beyond what was necessary. A simple, "Don't do that yet -- people could get hurt by your current level of ability" would have sufficed.

Actually, I haven't yet really developed a wont to build a trailer -- my first post was just very ambiguous because I stated in the first sentence that it seems paradoxical that most people want to build a trailer out of tubing and choose a method (stick welding) that's hard to weld tubing with. I didn't say that what I wanted to build right away were mobile tools stands until the fourth paragraph.

Originally Posted by tbone550

3) That said, I'd suggest that if you want a trailer soonest and cheapest, you'll be money ahead to buy a mass-produced one. No harm to building one yourself if it's just a life goal of yours, just recognize that the level of skill needed is fairly far removed from the level you currently have. That oft-repeated saying of, "It's not pretty, but it'll hold," is best translated as, "It'll hold until it doesn't." If it isn't pretty, you should redo it or keep learning until it is. Not a slam on you, just the way I see things.

After I get a few tool stands/carts done, I do want to build a special type of derrick for lifting heavy objects in the garage, then for my truck. My goal is to have the knowledge and ability to build things that do bear weight, things that do have mission critical welds. For this reason, any advice for trailer building that I get is extremely valuable and extremely welcome too!

Originally Posted by tbone550

4) When you're ready to build it, your weld beads will be straight, consistent in size, have no undercut, and a lot smaller than what you currently have. There will be no globs, and you won't be creating holes because you'll have a feel for the needed speed and consistency. You walk a fine line with thinner materials between blowing holes and getting good penetration.

That's just what I'm after, and why I went right out and got the scrap material for the exercises Minnesota Dave assigns to his students. I would like to have the talent, so even if there would be an affordable machine that removes the need for good welding ability, I wouldn't want to take that shortcut. I'm sorta old-school that way.

Originally Posted by tbone550

5) You mentioned a few posts up that you're welding with a Tombstone and it lacks adjustability, and that we should take this into account. I do know that a lot of stuff has been built with these machines, but I have personally never run one. If it's truly not capable of producing sound welds on 1/8" material with normal rods, you should probably do some searching for a machine that can. Some experienced guys with Tombstones should either agree that it can't do what you're trying to do, or set the record straight and place the blame on the hand holding the stinger, not the machine.

I've been assured in these forums that the tombstones are great stick welders for stick welding, if that's what you want to do, stick welding ;). I had an old AC one but got a brand new AC/DC one, I installed a dependable power source, and I got new high-quality electrodes. I did all of this so I could be absolutely sure that if I ended up with misplaced inconsistent splotchy globby porous welds, it could be for one reason and one reason only. I'm at that point right now in my troubleshooting :D.

Originally Posted by tbone550

6) I know you're going to Youtube because that's where people find info these days, and that's OK. But there are a lot of people propping themselves up as professionals on YT that aren't. The gospel is more easily found at your local welding shop than a guy you don't know on Youtube.

7) It might be worth taking a welding class from your local community college this fall. Shouldn't be too long before signup time begins. :) You won't learn a LOT of the stuff you need to do it for a living or even as a hobby, but the instant feedback from flesh and blood is going to be worth it for you.

I have already been perusing the college catalog. I once took some machining classes at the local community college and in one of my first milling operations, the mill was making a terrible noise (but I didn't know anything was amiss). A couple of people came running over quickly to shut it off and explain to me what was wrong. If I had just put a mill in my garage and started working from books and YouTube without taking the classes, I could have thought this was normal and wrecked my mill pretty quickly. This goes through my mind as I try to learn welding from the web and books. This is also why I post pictures of what I'm doing, and people here are being very helpful.

Originally Posted by tbone550

8) Go look at the setup you have in post 24. Your comments about the tube disappearing are right; you should try not to lay material out like this, where you're forced to weld directly into the cross-section of one edge. The horizontal tube needed to be set forward, or the top vertical piece set back, so that at least the width of a weld fillet extended past where the top vertical tube intersected. That way you would've had a heat sink for the weld at that edge. The edge of a piece of material burns away much faster than the face of another piece of material. It's possible, and desirable, to weld two edges together at times, but they're almost never set up like you have there. They're either set up to create a "V" which is filled by your weld deposit (on 90 degree butt joints), or they're set up with a bevel or gap to be filled on straight joints.

Thank you! I will post drawings of what I intend to build here before going ahead with it. I truly appreciate all the help I get here and find that help quite necessary. I probably especially will when you see what sort of lifting devices I hope to fabricate.

Originally Posted by tbone550

9) Good job with wanting to accomplish your trailer goal. Now that you have a tiny bit of "experience" holding a stinger, you can go to a trailer sales place and take a good look at how things are laid out, what materials are used, and maybe why some joints are laid out like they are. Most trailer places aren't hiring the most skilled workers, so the joint layout is often as much for weldability as it is for design strength. When you eventually reach the point where you can weld well enough to build a roadgoing piece of equipment, you're also going to want to understand a lot more about layout and design. Some of this will come from simple experiences such as the faulty layout in post 24; others will make sense to you as you go if you have a mechanically-inclined mind, and the rest will come by asking good questions. Good luck. :)

Thanks for taking the time to help me, T-Bone. You're absolutely right, I look at the way things with metal frameworks are made much more now than I used to, whether in the real world or online.

-- Dunn

Re: Square/Rectangular Steel Tubing Start & Stop Points

Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave

... <snip> ...

Btw, the flat plate exercise gets repeated for horizontal.
For vertical, and overhead they do the exercise in a 2"x2" piece of angle iron.

Howdy again, Dave,

I have a question for you from the ignorant. Why, for vertical and overhead, is angle iron used instead of flat plates? Is it too hard in those positions, even for the experienced, to hold a straight line with no joint to follow? Or, wait, without a joint the puddle won't stay up?

Thanks,
-- Dunn

Re: Square/Rectangular Steel Tubing Start & Stop Points

mr tbone excellent thank you clifton

Re: Square/Rectangular Steel Tubing Start & Stop Points

I'll second the idea of taking a semester at a local community college. You get a lot of bang for your buck there. It'll cost you more in consumables and materials to learn on your own than a semester of community college will cost.

Also glad to see you are practicing before you try and weld a trailer together.

Re: Square/Rectangular Steel Tubing Start & Stop Points

I just saw this thread. A couple of random comments and I'll let you guys continue.

1) Your original question about wrapping corners. I try to wrap corners whenever what I'm building is going to have a rough life. Cracks often start at corners; no use giving them a weak spot to help them start. I don't necessarily go from middle of flat to middle of flat, though. Something more like 3/4 of the way down the length of one flat to 3/4 of the way down the length of the next one, for example, can make more of the length of the bead be under your easiest area to see and control.

2) As you have surmised, your question is well ahead of your abilities. I'm glad to see people not jumping hard on you about talking about building a trailer with welds like those on the pictures. Not that they wouldn't be right, but rather that it doesn't help to crucify beginners. It wasn't that long ago that any new person wanting to build a trailer was well and truly tarred and feathered here, way beyond what was necessary. A simple, "Don't do that yet -- people could get hurt by your current level of ability" would have sufficed.

3) That said, I'd suggest that if you want a trailer soonest and cheapest, you'll be money ahead to buy a mass-produced one. No harm to building one yourself if it's just a life goal of yours, just recognize that the level of skill needed is fairly far removed from the level you currently have. That oft-repeated saying of, "It's not pretty, but it'll hold," is best translated as, "It'll hold until it doesn't." If it isn't pretty, you should redo it or keep learning until it is. Not a slam on you, just the way I see things.

4) When you're ready to build it, your weld beads will be straight, consistent in size, have no undercut, and a lot smaller than what you currently have. There will be no globs, and you won't be creating holes because you'll have a feel for the needed speed and consistency. You walk a fine line with thinner materials between blowing holes and getting good penetration.

5) You mentioned a few posts up that you're welding with a Tombstone and it lacks adjustability, and that we should take this into account. I do know that a lot of stuff has been built with these machines, but I have personally never run one. If it's truly not capable of producing sound welds on 1/8" material with normal rods, you should probably do some searching for a machine that can. Some experienced guys with Tombstones should either agree that it can't do what you're trying to do, or set the record straight and place the blame on the hand holding the stinger, not the machine.

6) I know you're going to Youtube because that's where people find info these days, and that's OK. But there are a lot of people propping themselves up as professionals on YT that aren't. The gospel is more easily found at your local welding shop than a guy you don't know on Youtube.

7) It might be worth taking a welding class from your local community college this fall. Shouldn't be too long before signup time begins. You won't learn a LOT of the stuff you need to do it for a living or even as a hobby, but the instant feedback from flesh and blood is going to be worth it for you.

8) Go look at the setup you have in post 24. Your comments about the tube disappearing are right; you should try not to lay material out like this, where you're forced to weld directly into the cross-section of one edge. The horizontal tube needed to be set forward, or the top vertical piece set back, so that at least the width of a weld fillet extended past where the top vertical tube intersected. That way you would've had a heat sink for the weld at that edge. The edge of a piece of material burns away much faster than the face of another piece of material. It's possible, and desirable, to weld two edges together at times, but they're almost never set up like you have there. They're either set up to create a "V" which is filled by your weld deposit (on 90 degree butt joints), or they're set up with a bevel or gap to be filled on straight joints.

9) Good job with wanting to accomplish your trailer goal. Now that you have a tiny bit of "experience" holding a stinger, you can go to a trailer sales place and take a good look at how things are laid out, what materials are used, and maybe why some joints are laid out like they are. Most trailer places aren't hiring the most skilled workers, so the joint layout is often as much for weldability as it is for design strength. When you eventually reach the point where you can weld well enough to build a roadgoing piece of equipment, you're also going to want to understand a lot more about layout and design. Some of this will come from simple experiences such as the faulty layout in post 24; others will make sense to you as you go if you have a mechanically-inclined mind, and the rest will come by asking good questions. Good luck.

Re: Square/Rectangular Steel Tubing Start & Stop Points

Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave

Your main problem appears to be you don't know how to make a proper bead yet and you're try to weld things together anyway.

For the class I teach, all students start with an 8"x8" flat plate, 3/16" or 1/4" thick depending on rod size.

Fill the plate with beads that half overlap so the plate top comes out flat.
Some kids need to do both sides, then both sides again at 90 degree to the first set of beads before they "get it."

.....some kids do it a few more times....lol

After that, learning joints is much easier.

Btw, the flat plate exercise gets repeated for horizontal.
For vertical, and overhead they do the exercise in a 2"x2" piece of angle iron.

This. Weld up a couple more pads to help you be able to follow lines, and watch the puddle. Next I would try and do some lap joints. 1" flat bar is pretty cheap material to use

Re: Square/Rectangular Steel Tubing Start & Stop Points

Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave

Your main problem appears to be you don't know how to make a proper bead yet and you're try to weld things together anyway.

For the class I teach, all students start with an 8"x8" flat plate, 3/16" or 1/4" thick depending on rod size.

Fill the plate with beads that half overlap so the plate top comes out flat.

Thanks, Dave. I did start with flat welds on plates and that's how I deduced that I had more luck with 7018. (I didn't have as many sticking problems on flat plate as I did when trying to weld inside a 90 degree corner.) I found a place with scrap metal that doesn't provide three day weekends to its employees for Memorial Day and got there before noon. For 8" plates I got four feet of 8" x 1/4" which will give me six plates, the same with some 2" angle iron. I also got some more 11 gage tubing for practice. Around here it was 75 cents a pound for this stuff, some clean, some rusty, some straight, some bent. I have no idea if that's a good price...

Attachment 1670191

Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave

Some kids need to do both sides, then both sides again at 90 degree to the first set of beads before they "get it."

.....some kids do it a few more times....lol

After that, learning joints is much easier.

Ok, the way I figure this is, the worse I am at this, the more youth I will gain. I'll still try to get it in one pass though.

Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave

Btw, the flat plate exercise gets repeated for horizontal.
For vertical, and overhead they do the exercise in a 2"x2" piece of angle iron.

So, after some wire brushing and cutting, I'll have plates enough to practice three types of electrodes in flat and horizontal, same with angle iron for vertical and overhead. I got 1/4" thickness to practice with 1/8" electrodes so I'll be saving my 3/32" electrodes for the 11 gage tubing I want to weld later. In 1/8" I have 6011, 6013, 7014, and 7018. While 6013 is often recommended for learning, I know I'll want to be able to weld with 6011 (or 6010 but I have 6011), most will be with 7018, but maybe 7014 which is highly recommended by the learned folks in these forums. When I get to using the 3/32", I only have 6011 and 7018 but William McCormick also recommends avoiding 3/32" so I think I'll be fine with my available choices.

Whew! I will now go do some Minnesota Masterclass Metal Melting Machinations.

Thanks,
-- Dunn

Re: Square/Rectangular Steel Tubing Start & Stop Points

Your main problem appears to be you don't know how to make a proper bead yet and you're try to weld things together anyway.

For the class I teach, all students start with an 8"x8" flat plate, 3/16" or 1/4" thick depending on rod size.

Fill the plate with beads that half overlap so the plate top comes out flat.
Some kids need to do both sides, then both sides again at 90 degree to the first set of beads before they "get it."

.....some kids do it a few more times....lol

After that, learning joints is much easier.

Btw, the flat plate exercise gets repeated for horizontal.
For vertical, and overhead they do the exercise in a 2"x2" piece of angle iron.

Re: Square/Rectangular Steel Tubing Start & Stop Points

Originally Posted by Boostinjdm

Turn your welder up. When set right, 7018 will pretty much weld stringers on it's own. CC instructor used to clamp the lead in a vice just below the stinger loaded with 7018. Help it strike the arc and walk away letting gravity do the work.

I saw that in a video, I think from WeldingTipsAndTricks. All of this looks incredibly easy when the experienced are doing it, but many things are that way.

Originally Posted by Boostinjdm

What size rod and amps are you running?

3/32" 7018 running at 95 amps DCEP on 11 gage (.120") tubing 1-1/4" square, and some other tubing sizes but all that wall thickness so far.

I do notice in videos, such as the one I'll post a link to at the end, that from the spatter and the things I've read, the amperage surely is set just a little too high in many of these videos. Yet in every one of them, the second the weld is done and the slag just lifts gently off with the chipping hammer, the area around the weld is as smooth as a baby's butt. The miracle of video?

Thanks, Boostinjdm who's not Jim
-- Dunn

There's a lot of talking (which I appreciate), but you can click around or just look at the very very beginning to see the spatter I'm talking about...

Re: Square/Rectangular Steel Tubing Start & Stop Points

Originally Posted by William McCormick

Starting neatly is sometimes a problem, especially if you have a small machine that does not deliver enough amps to start nicely. I have done a lot of welding with tomb stone machines making stairs and rails in high rise buildings. We used to use 1/8" 7014 because it is a forgiving rod. 3/32" rod is not practical. 7014 contains titanium which seems to be effective as a welding rod. I did a lot of box tubing with it for ornamental iron work.

Thanks, William! I had done better with 7018 than 7014 with practice beads on flat metal, and since 7018 is stronger anyway, I decided to start trying with that. I think I've done enough with it that I'll notice more differences between different rod types than before, so I'll certainly try some 7014, which I only have in 1/8" anyway and you've already answered that one!

Originally Posted by William McCormick

Welding thin stuff with an ARC rod is somewhat problematic. That is not what it was designed for. TIG is what you want. Get a little buzz box and have some real fun. You can do that in a suit and tie. I have done it in a suit and tie so I am sure.

What I want to do is get really good with TIG. That's the end result of my journey though. From what I've seen, I don't think I could find one experienced welder on these forums that doesn't know stick. I figured stick must be easier than TIG. For these reasons I started with stick welding. I figured it should be good for putting together some tools stand for the garage, and then I might branch out to TIG with a little bit of experience under my belt.

Originally Posted by William McCormick

I did a lot of 1/8" decking, lap welds and but welds with backing, using 7018. They are fun and easy. But when you try filling in voids that occur in box tubing especially overhead and vertical it gets a little dicey. Something like George Carlan's string of curse words came spewing out of me a few times on hot summer days, I could not tell if the burning was the sweat, the leathers pinching me or if it was hot balls of metal.

I would use very low amperage and keep the rod on the deck, and just rock the rod back and forth about 90 degrees, letting it burn and move at its own pace. Favoring the solid edge just a bit, not the cut edge. You will probably have to drag it a bit (angle the rod back at the puddle) which is not what you are supposed to do for 7018. So get a TIG welder. You need dry rods, you really should have a very good machine. A lot of guys are telling you stuff that works with a three phase DC generator welder, a large gas or diesel DC generator welder, or a big AC powered power DC rectified supply. Those tombstones can be frustrating as heck. Especially after they heat up. That is why the boss switched to 7014 because we would just take the little tombstone up and down in the stairwells. The 7018 in a building that just had a couple thousand tons of cement poured is a damp and humid place, that 7018 on thin wall just does not like.

My tombstone does do DC as well as AC. I noticed in some videos even from WeldingTipsAndTricks that when showing simple no frills stick welding, he had a voltage boost on his welder for starting and when getting too close during a bead. I don't have that, but I do have a brand new AC/DC tombstone which people say is good for just plain old stick welding. I hope everyone advising is taking into account that that's the machine I have, and not a fancy one with many settings.

Originally Posted by William McCormick

You will blow some holes but most of the time you can just keep going. And then go back and fix the holes when it cools down.

I'm quite sure my technique of going round and round holes until they fill in is probably wrong. It doesn't work all the time either!

Thanks for the help,
-- Dunn

Re: Square/Rectangular Steel Tubing Start & Stop Points

Turn your welder up. When set right, 7018 will pretty much weld stringers on it's own. CC instructor used to clamp the lead in a vice just below the stinger loaded with 7018. Help it strike the arc and walk away letting gravity do the work.

What size rod and amps are you running?

Re: Square/Rectangular Steel Tubing Start & Stop Points

Me again,

I abandoned the square and went back to my regular tube welding. As I work on my miter cutting abilities, I know some corners will be butted anyway, so I'll try my hand at that. Now, I see metal just melting away to nothing...

Attachment 1669851

I've gotten to where, as much as I want to be able to do this all with 7018, I'm going to have to try some of the other sticks I have. That's really all I can think of at this point. The bottom piece seems to disappear immediately so I don't know how moving faster would help. Change amperage? Dunno. If I lower it and I'm sticking as much as I already am, I'll be in stuck stick heaven.

I must remember, I have to be learning because I'm sure learning how things are not done!

Thanks,
-- Dunn

Re: Square/Rectangular Steel Tubing Start & Stop Points

Howdy,

Thanks, everyone, for the further advice. I've been gone a few days for a graduation but before I left I went out to try to stay with 7018 to start with, and to try welding some of my cut pieces of tubing.

Here, after welding the bottom, I tried to weld the rest in position to learn how, so I had sort of sideways and an overhead corner (sorry my terminology is not up to snuff).

Attachment 1669821

I know, it ain't pretty but I honestly felt like I was learning things despite sticking so many rods it ain't funny. The only reason I didn't waste a ton of rods after frantic twisting and pulling on them when stuck was because of two tips: 1) keep a scrap piece of metal nearby and use it to just burn off the exposed rod with no flux into a puddle blob so you always have fluxed rod to weld with; and 2) keep a file nearby to rub the end of the 7018 on to expose metal after a welding stop.

Thinking I was doing well I tried to weld a square up with some tubing I thought showed the absolute accuracy of my freehand angle cutting. My welding table is a 4" wide painted metal sawhorse, but not to fear, I had bought some welding magnets that would hold everything together. It didn't go well...

Attachment 1669791

I couldn't find a ball peen hammer but finally found a hatchet with no corrugated teeth on head. It was hard to try to hammer the pieces into position between the magnets and when I got a blow in the hatchet stuck to the metal. The arcs when tacking were wild. It wasn't until I was done and looked at this picture that I realized I could easily have made two sides I was trying to push together both north or both south and they were repelling each other.

Due to these problems I couldn't put all the pieces together at once so I tacked each individually. This gave me this end result with my supposedly amazingly accurate miter cuts when done...

Attachment 1669841

I used bonzoo's (and probably others') tip to tack at the corners instead of the sides. At the left was one of my best runs where I thought I was going right along the line but was way off. It gets too fast at the end because I had realized I should have hit the inside corner by that time and where was it? Until I have more practice, I decided to use the tip, also from bonzoo, to mark a line 1/2" away from where the weld should be. Now I'm just getting used to the (seemingly amazing amount of) other things I'm supposed to be watching and the separate line.

This picture is a failed attempt to weld across the large gap my fantastically accurate cutting had given me...

Attachment 1669801

I managed to cut a sliver of metal and sort of fill in with that and got something across the gap...

Attachment 1669811

That was it for that day. I know there's not one good weld there but if I was getting paid by the hour and quality didn't matter, I'd be doing ok.

Thanks,
-- Dunn

Re: Square/Rectangular Steel Tubing Start & Stop Points

Originally Posted by dunn

For a T joint, I think from watching videos that I should tack in the centers of the 90 degree edges, right?.


I welded along that edge again and could this time see a puddle and it was between the two pieces definitely touching the vertical piece, but when I was done that piece looked like it had never been touched. In fact, this picture might even be after the second bead. Hmmm.

The few times I did stick on square tubing, I quickly learned that I preferred to tack at the corners, not at the 90° fillet. If I tacked at the corners, then I could run 4 straight beads instead of 4 beads where I would have to turn a 90° corner to meet the other tack at the middle of the fillet (or butt) joint. Not only that, corners tend to burn away quick. With a good sized tack at the corners, I had something to tie into that would help soak up some of the heat that inevitably begins to outrun me on small size square tubing, and not be left with a concave crater.

Re: Square/Rectangular Steel Tubing Start & Stop Points

Starting neatly is sometimes a problem, especially if you have a small machine that does not deliver enough amps to start nicely. I have done a lot of welding with tomb stone machines making stairs and rails in high rise buildings. We used to use 1/8" 7014 because it is a forgiving rod. 3/32" rod is not practical. 7014 contains titanium which seems to be effective as a welding rod. I did a lot of box tubing with it for ornamental iron work.

Welding thin stuff with an ARC rod is somewhat problematic. That is not what it was designed for. TIG is what you want. Get a little buzz box and have some real fun. You can do that in a suit and tie. I have done it in a suit and tie so I am sure.

I did a lot of 1/8" decking, lap welds and but welds with backing, using 7018. They are fun and easy. But when you try filling in voids that occur in box tubing especially overhead and vertical it gets a little dicey. Something like George Carlan's string of curse words came spewing out of me a few times on hot summer days, I could not tell if the burning was the sweat, the leathers pinching me or if it was hot balls of metal.

I would use very low amperage and keep the rod on the deck, and just rock the rod back and forth about 90 degrees, letting it burn and move at its own pace. Favoring the solid edge just a bit, not the cut edge. You will probably have to drag it a bit (angle the rod back at the puddle) which is not what you are supposed to do for 7018. So get a TIG welder. You need dry rods, you really should have a very good machine. A lot of guys are telling you stuff that works with a three phase DC generator welder, a large gas or diesel DC generator welder, or a big AC powered power DC rectified supply. Those tombstones can be frustrating as heck. Especially after they heat up. That is why the boss switched to 7014 because we would just take the little tombstone up and down in the stairwells. The 7018 in a building that just had a couple thousand tons of cement poured is a damp and humid place, that 7018 on thin wall just does not like.

You will blow some holes but most of the time you can just keep going. And then go back and fix the holes when it cools down.


Sincerely,

William McCormick

Re: Square/Rectangular Steel Tubing Start & Stop Points

One more thing. Gussets. When working with 1/8 stuff it is what it is. Flexible. The flex guitar strings at the joints. Gusset everything for a trailer.

Re: Square/Rectangular Steel Tubing Start & Stop Points

Originally Posted by Leogl

I have to agree with the earlier post I would use nothing less than 1/8 tubing but if you proceed with the thin tubing my past experience has been to use 3/32 6010 to weld it as penetration is not going to be a problem . Your going to have issues using 14 ga trying to keep it straight warping and distortion is going to be very visible and the tongue if built out of 14 ga it will bend .

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i agree use 1/8 or thicker. thinner stuff can be done but you need good joint fit ups with no gaps and it is much harder to weld. they do sell 1/16 and 5/64 rod in 6013 but if you got a gap it can be 10 to 100 times harder to control weld puddle
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actually little 1/16 rod is hard to use. it often vibrates right after sticking arc. many cut rods shorter cause of vibration problem

Re: Square/Rectangular Steel Tubing Start & Stop Points

11 and 1/8 is closer nuffer. Keep practicing and go get some 7014. Its much more forgiving as to the angle of the rod and position.
Yup welding causes shrinkage hence the tube change. You can reduce this in a couple of ways. First, when tacking your tube tack the corners first.You can turn up the heat for a second to help the rod not to stick but do small fast tacks soz you don't blow a hole. Turn the machine back down and weld opposite sides. When building the actual piece you can tack everything up and then move around when welding.That reduces metal movement(a little) and also doesn't let one area get too hot, reducing the chance for blow through.
What lens are you running ? I like a number 9 on the low amp stuff.You can mark the tube about 1/2" from your weld and that will help you run straighter and see better too.

Re: Square/Rectangular Steel Tubing Start & Stop Points

Howdy,

Thanks everyone, for all the help.

This is a learning process for me and right now is just for tool stands. I do have some 3/32" 6011 but made my first attempts with 3/32" 7018. While I've heard there is more control with the 6011 than the 7018, I'm sure I don't yet have the ability to control anything.

I cut up the 11 gage tubing I posted a picture of earlier into 4" long pieces and cut some miters on the 2" pieces. Since 11 gage is 0.120" that's the same as 1/8", right? If the 0.005" makes a difference or if there's other differences between the gaged tubing and the 1/8" please let me know.

For a T joint, I think from watching videos that I should tack in the centers of the 90 degree edges, right? Watching me do this might have seemed comical if I hadn't stuck the sticks so many times it would have led to boredom after a while. Since every video I've ever seen goes at 1000 mph for the tacking part, considered boring, I really have no idea how to tack with a stick. I do not know if it's held in one place, moved a short distance along the crease, or moved across the crease (or across the gap on the sides or corners). I suppose the tacking method is moot if you stick the rod so many times that the occasional time you get an arc, reflexes cause you to instantly yank the rod away while twisting it. I am constantly reminded as I type this that if you drop a stick on the concrete ground and cannot pick it up with your fancy Lincoln Electric gloves on, it's a bad idea to take off a glove and pick up the recently stuck rod with your bare fingers.

So far, I have welded quite a few lines on 4" x 4" plates of steel using sticks of different denominations, but welding two pieces of tubing together is vastly different. Here's my first weld on 1-1/4" square 11 gage tubing, during which I could swear the arc was on the upper vertical piece of tubing. You can see my attempt at tacking on one of the other sides...

Attachment 1666651

I welded along that edge again and could this time see a puddle and it was between the two pieces definitely touching the vertical piece, but when I was done that piece looked like it had never been touched. In fact, this picture might even be after the second bead. Hmmm.

Here's the final result after welding all the way around. When going across the side on the left, I just continued around welding on top of the other two passes I had already done on the vertical side...

Attachment 1666661

I did not blow holes in anything as I went around, but it does look in the picture like as the welds cooled they crushed the vertical piece even at the corners. I don't know if this is an illusion or even possible.

Anyway, I did some more but they look even worse because I'm giving myself one pass on each. I've got plenty more scrap pieces and would like to see an improvement after 10 or 20 more tries tomorrow. I sort of lost a day figuring out how to cut this stuff but now the cuts are reasonably good, good enough so the pieces should be straighter than they are after welding. I think I'd better leave nuances such as squareness for after I can lay down some welds correctly. Any tips on tacking (or welding of course), are extremely welcome.

Thanks!