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Re: Need help with broken a Vise Nut

Samhop. You touched on an alternative repair. McMaster Carr, Fastenal and others, sell Acme threaded rod (and nuts) why not make a weldment from steel round stock, weld it to whatever flat stock you need, drill and tap the round stock for the proper Acme threaded rod? (Acme taps are commonly available.) This would allow the repair of vises that no longer have replacement parts available and be stronger in the process. The only tools required would be a welder, drill, tap size drill and tap, this would allow a vise repair service to put many of these old vises back in service. Just thinkin out loud. Good luck!

Re: Need help with broken a Vise Nut

cast iron, gray, ductile ect full depth V grind and Braze weld with ox-ect. ss stick will work but if it has been brazed you will have to get all the brass off before ss stick repair. I would braze weld it if it was my vice

Re: Need help with broken a Vise Nut

Out of the box a tiny bit here-
Find a local hobby machinist , hand him the nut and say, "can you help me please?"
And hand them the lead screw too.

Or measure it, allow for shrinkage and machining, and make a wood pattern to send to a small foundry. Then give the casting to a machinist.
Two dovetail sides and the bore and thread? Piece of cake. These things were designed to fit a bit sloppy anyway.

Re: Need help with broken a Vise Nut

Originally Posted by samhop

A braze made correctly will work and be plenty strong as long as its not yarded on with a bar.
or you can buy 2 Acme threaded nuts and fab the car and stand off out of 4140
fwiw

The ACME nuts will only work if it's a standard ACME thread, and not a proprietary thread as many vices are. When I broke the rod on my vice, buying the ACME rod and matching nuts was going to be about 80% the cost of a new vice, and you still need to get a good weld at the knob that holds the handle on without heat stressing the threaded rod.

Re: Need help with broken a Vise Nut

Originally Posted by frede162

I have a DESMOND STEPHAN SIMPLEX 31s vise that belonged to my wife's grandfather. Unfortunately the main nut (spindle) has broken. I'm a woodworker and not sure it can be to fabricated or welded. As seen in the photo the nut was repaired before....looks like it was brazed with brass??

Attachment 1724787

A braze made correctly will work and be plenty strong as long as its not yarded on with a bar.
or you can buy 2 Acme threaded nuts and fab the car and stand off out of 4140
fwiw

Re: Need help with broken a Vise Nut

The person how did that repair.
1) Did not bevel the joint
2) The brazing was poor
3) I would need more photos of vise to see if a reinforcement can be add to.

Dave

Originally Posted by frede162

I have a DESMOND STEPHAN SIMPLEX 31s vise that belonged to my wife's grandfather. Unfortunately the main nut (spindle) has broken. I'm a woodworker and not sure it can be to fabricated or welded. As seen in the photo the nut was repaired before....looks like it was brazed with brass??

Attachment 1724787

Re: Need help with broken a Vise Nut

Your vise is useless as it is.
Brazing will give little strength.
If I were to try, I'd Find a way to jig it, so you can keep placement of the two parts exactly aligned. V it out to a true open root. You need some space between the two parts & room to get in there to weld.
I would TIG weld a "butter" layer of stainless on each face. The cast will be dirty, it'll take a series of cleanings to cover the entire face of the pieces with stainless. Hastelloy is another option. Once completely coated, they can be welded to each other with stainless, or ER70S6.

Start to finish, keep it hot, then cool very slowly.

Re: Need help with broken a Vise Nut

The last time I checked there were over 200 variations of cast iron, I have successfully welded some using brazing, arc welding, and MIG welding, It depends a lot on the part and its' function and the welding material used, as well as the process used. Good luck!

"There is no metal so strong, that it will withstand a weak mind" Shackletts' Axiom

Re: Need help with broken a Vise Nut

Thanks for that helpful observation..

Re: Need help with broken a Vise Nut

Well back 80"s me was main welding guy of shop, did lot repair on every type metal came in door always welded cast with nickel rod and sometimes brass ,would tell guy that couldn't tell or guarantee it would hold or not until started welding on it ,lot time if newer cast Chinese metal it wasn't wort trying , one day welding rod salesman pull up in 76 ford Pinto, my boss man sent him down to shop to me (office was on second floor) salesman told me if boss man bought welding rod from him each welder in shop got nice Buck knife!!! he got my attention ,, so he brought cast iron head place it on welding table told me go get piece scrap steel plate behind shield? me thinking can't weld cast to steel? so pick 3/16" flat bar about 10" long he gave me his 1/8" cast iron rod told set machine amp as was gong weld 7018 , so tack it on head and welded it like 7018 knock the flux off was most beautiful bead every put on cast!!!!, so he instructed me take hammer bend it over beat hell out of it until beat 180 degree ,, me was smiling!! walk the guy back upstairs told my Boss man that was great rod!(and wanted that Buck knife!!)so waited few hours seen boss man ask him if bought that rod from him? he said guy was asking like $500 for 10 lb guy went out back door never ask what brand rod it was or ever seen the Pinto again!! so that my story ,, just seen this cast rod on U-TUBE "Muggy Weld "there 2 rod the first like clean dirty impurity out then finish with 2 rod looks like winner!!!worth checking

Re: Need help with broken a Vise Nut

Originally Posted by frede162

I have a DESMOND STEPHAN SIMPLEX 31s vise that belonged to my wife's grandfather. Unfortunately the main nut (spindle) has broken. I'm a woodworker and not sure it can be to fabricated or welded. As seen in the photo the nut was repaired before....looks like it was brazed with brass??

Attachment 1724787

I use Everdure and a TIG torch, electrode Straight polarity, DCEN. I do melt the base material some I don't just coat it. I have welded vises that have broke and when we did the same thing again it didn't break, haha.

Sincerely,

William McCormick

Re: Need help with broken a Vise Nut

Originally Posted by CAVEMANN

As a future reference most vices have an Acme or a square thread, square thread is largely obsolete, the other issue is that it may be a multiple lead thread, 2 to 4 "starts."

Thanks for that helpful observation!

Re: Need help with broken a Vise Nut

As a future reference most vices have an Acme or a square thread, square thread is largely obsolete, the other issue is that it may be a multiple lead thread, 2 to 4 "starts."

Re: Need help with broken a Vise Nut

Originally Posted by frede162

Yup that's how I broke the mine. I was pressing a bearing out of a phenolic pulley used on a cable pulldown fitness machine. No cheater bar, and only moderate force, but that is indeed how I broke the previous braze on mine.

Sorry I was meaning to send this to G-Manbart

Re: Need help with broken a Vise Nut

Originally Posted by G-ManBart

I understand lots of folks think it will work, but I have yet to see anybody pull it off successfully. I don't know if there's a difference because the part is actually ductile iron, not cast iron, or because it's simply a thin part, but I haven't seen an old vise show up with a brazed nut that was still in service, and I've seen countless other types of brazed repairs on vises that were clearly done a long time ago and held. Along those same lines, I've had so many people contact me after trying to braze a nut unsuccessfully that I lost track a long time ago...they break it, try fixing it, it fails again and then they send me a note looking for a source for a replacement part. Maybe it's a coincidence of epic proportions, but I really doubt it.

I've stick welded vises with nickel rods, brazed them, TIG brazed them and TIG welded with two different Inconel filler wire and the best results have usually been using Inconel. I prep the area to white metal using a carbide bit, then use just the arc to cook the carbon out...heat, stainless brush, repeat until the black soot stops coming out, then lay in a root pass and build off that. I have some aluminum bronze TIG wire I'm going to try next. I'll have to add nickel silver to the list.

PM me your address and I'll send you a couple sticks of Nickel Silver to mess with If interested. 312 Stainless as well if you want to mess with it too.

Re: Need help with broken a Vise Nut

Originally Posted by G-ManBart

Usually someone is using a cheater pipe on the handle so they can really crank down on something, and it's more than the vise was intended to hold. The other most common way is using a vise to seat a bearing. Bench vises are really just designed to hold something, not compress things, like an actual press. I can't tell you how many times I get notes from folks who have broken their vise and the most common reason was they were pressing a bearing. You can get away with it using a big vise and small bearing, but where the line is would just be a guess.

Yup that's how I broke the mine. I was pressing a bearing out of a phenolic pulley used on a cable pulldown fitness machine. No cheater bar, and only moderate force, but that is indeed how I broke the previous braze on mine.

Re: Need help with broken a Vise Nut

Originally Posted by Rondo

Brazing would work. I would rather use a better brazing alloy like Ni-Ag. Nickel Silver brazing on cast iron is crazy strong and it permeates into the cast better than low fuming bronze. 95K tensile strength compared to 65K on Bronze.

I understand lots of folks think it will work, but I have yet to see anybody pull it off successfully. I don't know if there's a difference because the part is actually ductile iron, not cast iron, or because it's simply a thin part, but I haven't seen an old vise show up with a brazed nut that was still in service, and I've seen countless other types of brazed repairs on vises that were clearly done a long time ago and held. Along those same lines, I've had so many people contact me after trying to braze a nut unsuccessfully that I lost track a long time ago...they break it, try fixing it, it fails again and then they send me a note looking for a source for a replacement part. Maybe it's a coincidence of epic proportions, but I really doubt it.

I've stick welded vises with nickel rods, brazed them, TIG brazed them and TIG welded with two different Inconel filler wire and the best results have usually been using Inconel. I prep the area to white metal using a carbide bit, then use just the arc to cook the carbon out...heat, stainless brush, repeat until the black soot stops coming out, then lay in a root pass and build off that. I have some aluminum bronze TIG wire I'm going to try next. I'll have to add nickel silver to the list.

Re: Need help with broken a Vise Nut

Originally Posted by tapwelder

Why go vises break like that?

Usually someone is using a cheater pipe on the handle so they can really crank down on something, and it's more than the vise was intended to hold. The other most common way is using a vise to seat a bearing. Bench vises are really just designed to hold something, not compress things, like an actual press. I can't tell you how many times I get notes from folks who have broken their vise and the most common reason was they were pressing a bearing. You can get away with it using a big vise and small bearing, but where the line is would just be a guess.

Re: Need help with broken a Vise Nut

Originally Posted by G-ManBart

I agreed that there are many brazed vises still in use...no debate there. I stopped counting how many vises I've owned when I got to 300. I've repaired and restored vises for hundreds of other people. I get e-mails daily through my website from people looking for parts or asking how to fix a broken vise. In all of that I have never seen one with a brazed nut that lasted and it comes up all the time. I've seen multiples of every other repair you can think of that was still holding, but never a nut.

There is almost no chance that the only people who always did it wrong were the ones brazing a nut.

Heck, I'd buy two broken vises with good nuts, break one and let the best brazer on the forum give it a try and then test the two to see what happens. I'll put money on it....who wants to do the repair? That'd be a great post on my site.

Brazing would work. I would rather use a better brazing alloy like Ni-Ag. Nickel Silver brazing on cast iron is crazy strong and it permeates into the cast better than low fuming bronze. 95K tensile strength compared to 65K on Bronze.

Re: Need help with broken a Vise Nut

Why go vises break like that?

Re: Need help with broken a Vise Nut

Originally Posted by thegary

I stand by my post. Just because you have seen them fail does not really mean anything other than the person who did the repair did not do it right or the vise was abused far beyond its intended design strength. The latter is usually the case and the original piece broke for the same reason. There are thousands of brazed vises being used for decades that have not broken again.

I agreed that there are many brazed vises still in use...no debate there. I stopped counting how many vises I've owned when I got to 300. I've repaired and restored vises for hundreds of other people. I get e-mails daily through my website from people looking for parts or asking how to fix a broken vise. In all of that I have never seen one with a brazed nut that lasted and it comes up all the time. I've seen multiples of every other repair you can think of that was still holding, but never a nut.

There is almost no chance that the only people who always did it wrong were the ones brazing a nut.

Heck, I'd buy two broken vises with good nuts, break one and let the best brazer on the forum give it a try and then test the two to see what happens. I'll put money on it....who wants to do the repair? That'd be a great post on my site.

Re: Need help with broken a Vise Nut

Originally Posted by G-ManBart

I've been dealing with broken bench vises for a long time, and see probably every repair you can imagine....I have yet to see a brazed nut hold together. So even if the theory is good, I have yet to see someone make it work in practice and that includes guys from the old days who were artists when it comes to brazing.

On the other hand, I've seen slides brazed that held up fine for decades, as well as bases, and other parts. For whatever reason, brazed nuts never seem to hold together.

I think the ASTM standard tensile strength for cast iron is around 25K PSI. That's what most of the cheap cast iron vises have as a spec...25-30K is typical. Most good vises actually aren't made of cast iron, they're ductile iron with a tensile strength around 60K PSI. I believe ductile iron has elasticity properties similar to brass going off memory.

It would be hard to add any additional material to the area it broke because that's the area the slide passes over and there isn't much extra room....the nut is narrowed there for a reason. There's probably room for a little extra, but not much.

Desmond-Stephan Simplex vises were known for using steel and semi-steel slides, but the body and nut were ductile iron. They actually made it a point in their advertising to talk about how much stronger their vise was than the competition, so I doubt they would have gone cheap on the nut and made it from grey cast iron. I have one on the shelf now....4.25" as I recall, about 70lbs....quite solid. I've had a few others in the past and they are nicely made.

I stand by my post. Just because you have seen them fail does not really mean anything other than the person who did the repair did not do it right or the vise was abused far beyond its intended design strength. The latter is usually the case and the original piece broke for the same reason. There are thousands of brazed vises being used for decades that have not broken again.

Re: Need help with broken a Vise Nut

Thanks to everyone for the responses and great info which will help me with my search for the part. Someone offered to TIG Braze the nut so I'm going to send it to him. Hoping to get it back for light duty work. I'm a woodworker but from time to time I need a metal vise.

Re: Need help with broken a Vise Nut

Originally Posted by frede162

Thanks G. Been on a daily ebay hunt along with a other places. I'm also thinking the same on interchangeability, but without a of cross-ref it's impossible to know. As seen the nut is stamped with the vise model "31" but I wonder if that was just to categorize inventory.

Seems this model was less common but I'll keep looking for a fix/used part. The man who owned the vise (wife's GF) fought in WWII.... it's just cool to have his vise in my shop.

I hear you....I get a lot of e-mails through my site from folks looking for parts like this, and I've had vises sit on the shelf for a couple of years waiting for just the right part to come along, so I know the feeling!

The other model would have the same nut would be the 31P....fixed base version of the same vise. There might be other models I'm not aware of, but at least that will give you two to search for.

It certainly wouldn't hurt to have someone try repairing what you have...even if it limits it to light duty while you keep searching.

Re: Need help with broken a Vise Nut

Originally Posted by thegary

This is not true. Cast iron has a tinsel strength that varies considerably between 20,000 psl to 60,000 psl. I would wager most are in the area of 35-40,000 psl. Brass has a tinsel strength of 52,000 psl. Cast iron has next to no elasticity where as brass is somewhere in the area of 20% . A brazed repair on that nut if prepped and brazed correctly will be at least on par with the cast iron. The original part broke once too so all I would do is make sure it is prepped correctly the second time around and add more brass build up to the area.

I've been dealing with broken bench vises for a long time, and see probably every repair you can imagine....I have yet to see a brazed nut hold together. So even if the theory is good, I have yet to see someone make it work in practice and that includes guys from the old days who were artists when it comes to brazing.

On the other hand, I've seen slides brazed that held up fine for decades, as well as bases, and other parts. For whatever reason, brazed nuts never seem to hold together.

I think the ASTM standard tensile strength for cast iron is around 25K PSI. That's what most of the cheap cast iron vises have as a spec...25-30K is typical. Most good vises actually aren't made of cast iron, they're ductile iron with a tensile strength around 60K PSI. I believe ductile iron has elasticity properties similar to brass going off memory.

It would be hard to add any additional material to the area it broke because that's the area the slide passes over and there isn't much extra room....the nut is narrowed there for a reason. There's probably room for a little extra, but not much.

Desmond-Stephan Simplex vises were known for using steel and semi-steel slides, but the body and nut were ductile iron. They actually made it a point in their advertising to talk about how much stronger their vise was than the competition, so I doubt they would have gone cheap on the nut and made it from grey cast iron. I have one on the shelf now....4.25" as I recall, about 70lbs....quite solid. I've had a few others in the past and they are nicely made.