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Re: Existing electrical 240 V 15 A - what can be welded or am I out of luck.

Yes most of us know a welder doesn't use a neutral. A welder is a straight 240 device. Not a 120/240 so it don't need a neutral it needs two hots and a ground. I was trying to figure out what you were trying to say with your post.

I had just explained that. When you quoted me and then said something about all these people including yourself being wrong or something I thought there was some problem with my explanation of why a 3 wire range outlet is different with a neutral whereas a welder outlet it would be a ground instead.

I wasn't sure what your post was trying to say. That is what I posted they aren't the same. All 120/240 circuits need neutral and ground. So they can't be the same. Then you tell me a welder doesn't need a neutral. Nobody ever suggested a welder needed a neutral. A welder isn't 120/240.

If you open a 3 wire range outlet and swap in a welder outlet and verify that the range neutral is in fact landed in a panel where all the grounds and neutral are bonded together than the new welding outlet can function and operate safely as designed. The old range neutral can almost certainly function as a equipment ground.

Been doing residential, commercial and industrial electrical work for 40 years in Palm Beach, Broward and Dade, Florida counties. Very strict adherence to current codes. Last 10 years mostly spent doing large switch gear, transfer switch and generator replacement in high rise condominiums. Serious heavy duty chit.

Re: Existing electrical 240 V 15 A - what can be welded or am I out of luck.

Originally Posted by danielplace

Not sure what your saying.

In a 3 wire range outlet it has a insulated Neutral used for return of 120 volt items in the range and also used to bond the cabinet to the neutral where it is also being used as a equipment ground. Ranges and dryers of 3 wire type they were the same.

You would never use just 3 wires to feed a 120/240 volt outlet, a device or a sub panel today and share the neutral and use it for your ground too.

A 230 Volt welder doesn't use a neutral. It can be fed with SEU, a cable with two insulated current carrying conductors and a bare equipment ground conductor.

Earlier codes allowed for a range to be fed the same way IF it originated from service equipment.

I've had countless people tell me Equipment ground & neutral are the same thing. Unanimously, the experts see otherwise.

Re: Existing electrical 240 V 15 A - what can be welded or am I out of luck.

Technically you can use the ground wire as a neutral... doesn't make it a good idea though. The earthing system is designed to allow a large amount of current safely get away, and overload the fuse or breaker, before anyone gets electrocuted.

Re: Existing electrical 240 V 15 A - what can be welded or am I out of luck.

Originally Posted by Willie B

I submit. ALL the esteemed code panel members, Mike Holt, a few thousand experts & I are wrong. Neutral is the same as equipment ground.

Not sure what your saying.

In a 3 wire range outlet it has a insulated Neutral used for return of 120 volt items in the range and also used to bond the cabinet to the neutral where it is also being used as a equipment ground. Ranges and dryers of 3 wire type they were the same.

You would never use just 3 wires to feed a 120/240 volt outlet, a device or a sub panel today and share the neutral and use it for your ground too.

Re: Existing electrical 240 V 15 A - what can be welded or am I out of luck.

Originally Posted by danielplace

William is referring to the fact that is a 3 wire range receptacle that you think has a ground but is actually a neutral being used as a ground. It was never a good idea and finally they made code to address this. Hence they are all 4 wire now and use a ground and a separate neutral for a current carrying conductor.

So technically it isn't a ground in that range outlet but rather a neutral which people will discuss and argue about saying it goes the same place and honestly the welder is better off using it as a ground than the range is using it for a neutral and a ground IMO.

Really if you are in the main panel with it which it should have been to be able to share in the first place then it will actually function fine as the ground for the welder almost certainly.

I submit. ALL the esteemed code panel members, Mike Holt, a few thousand experts & I are wrong. Neutral is the same as equipment ground.

Re: Existing electrical 240 V 15 A - what can be welded or am I out of luck.

Originally Posted by metreek

Interesting. I do generally Aire on the side of safety. If it is not grounded, yes that is a concern. GFCI does require a neutral as far as I understand to function properly,But am not an electrician so cannot confirm that.

how do I know that both a range and a dryer outlet are grounded? I have seen the 8thgauge cables and they do have three conductors.

I also wanted to clarify that this is a temporary set up. Meeting after every use, the court would be returned to the unused kitchen. No lawnmowers, cars or anything else will damage the cord

William is referring to the fact that is a 3 wire range receptacle that you think has a ground but is actually a neutral being used as a ground. It was never a good idea and finally they made code to address this. Hence they are all 4 wire now and use a ground and a separate neutral for a current carrying conductor.

So technically it isn't a ground in that range outlet but rather a neutral which people will discuss and argue about saying it goes the same place and honestly the welder is better off using it as a ground than the range is using it for a neutral and a ground IMO.

Really if you are in the main panel with it which it should have been to be able to share in the first place then it will actually function fine as the ground for the welder almost certainly.

Re: Existing electrical 240 V 15 A - what can be welded or am I out of luck.

Interesting. I do generally Aire on the side of safety. If it is not grounded, yes that is a concern. GFCI does require a neutral as far as I understand to function properly,But am not an electrician so cannot confirm that.

how do I know that both a range and a dryer outlet are grounded? I have seen the 8thgauge cables and they do have three conductors.

I also wanted to clarify that this is a temporary set up. Meeting after every use, the court would be returned to the unused kitchen. No lawnmowers, cars or anything else will damage the cord

Re: Existing electrical 240 V 15 A - what can be welded or am I out of luck.

I never had a GFI on my welder.
That sounds like local code.
It is good thing for safety.
They coast $130.00 if fits your box.
In few years it will NEC where to use the breaker.
Where live they need on pools and spa.

Dave

Originally Posted by Willie B

You will do what you will do. I believe a cord is a dangerous solution. Under certain circumstances a range outlet is not grounded as a welder should be. Running it rthrough a door or window risks it being damaged, across the ground it'll get run over by mower or car. Rain is a concern.

In general extension cord circuits are supposed to be GFCI protected.

GIVE IN. RUN A CIRCUIT FOR A WELDER. IDEALLY, A #6 CIRCUIT WITH A 60 AMP BREAKER. IT LIKELY WILL POWER ANY WELDER YOU BUY AT ANY TIME.

Re: Existing electrical 240 V 15 A - what can be welded or am I out of luck.

You will do what you will do. I believe a cord is a dangerous solution. Under certain circumstances a range outlet is not grounded as a welder should be. Running it rthrough a door or window risks it being damaged, across the ground it'll get run over by mower or car. Rain is a concern.

In general extension cord circuits are supposed to be GFCI protected.

GIVE IN. RUN A CIRCUIT FOR A WELDER. IDEALLY, A #6 CIRCUIT WITH A 60 AMP BREAKER. IT LIKELY WILL POWER ANY WELDER YOU BUY AT ANY TIME.

Re: Existing electrical 240 V 15 A - what can be welded or am I out of luck.

Sounds like you fix for now.

Dave

Originally Posted by metreek

About 40 feet. I never planned on welding in the garage for better ventilation.40 feet is behind the garage where I plan on doing the work. I checked my panel, my dryer the 240 30 AMP, but I can't read the cable gauge. There is also an unused stove in the basement also 40 feet which is a 8 gauge 240 V 40 amp.

getting an extension cord from the stove is probably my best bet. I can leave that appliance unplugged for a time and bring the extension cord back into the house.
With 240 V 40 amp, but should be sufficient, right?At least until I get a proper dedicated 60 amp subpanel to the garage

Re: Existing electrical 240 V 15 A - what can be welded or am I out of luck.

About 40 feet. I never planned on welding in the garage for better ventilation.40 feet is behind the garage where I plan on doing the work. I checked my panel, my dryer the 240 30 AMP, but I can't read the cable gauge. There is also an unused stove in the basement also 40 feet which is a 8 gauge 240 V 40 amp.

getting an extension cord from the stove is probably my best bet. I can leave that appliance unplugged for a time and bring the extension cord back into the house.
With 240 V 40 amp, but should be sufficient, right?At least until I get a proper dedicated 60 amp subpanel to the garage

Re: Existing electrical 240 V 15 A - what can be welded or am I out of luck.

Originally Posted by Louie1961

Amazon and others sell them. This is just one example. You might still need to fashion a pigtail to connect the far end of the extension cord to the plug style on your welder. https://www.amazon.com/Miady-Welding...068576&sr=8-16

It isn't the welder end as much as the dryer end. Welder might already be a 6-50p but the 6-50p on the cord isn't going to plug into a dryer outlet for sure.

Re: Existing electrical 240 V 15 A - what can be welded or am I out of luck.

Originally Posted by metreek

I will take a closer look. Maybe I am wrong about the gauge I need to take a closer look. Part of me thinks it's not worth the effort and I should just wait. My dryer outlet is About 30 feet from the door. I didn't know they made extension cords for such high amperage ratings. I suppose you mean to make one myself? that might be the easiest issue way To make one.

In my area, I often see used welding units for significant reduction in price. I always intended to go that route.

Amazon and others sell them. This is just one example. You might still need to fashion a pigtail to connect the far end of the extension cord to the plug style on your welder. https://www.amazon.com/Miady-Welding...068576&sr=8-16

Re: Existing electrical 240 V 15 A - what can be welded or am I out of luck.

Originally Posted by rexcormack

Hey Louie, I actually have seen 240/15 circuits here in the USA!
They were on 1/4 and 1/2 hp Welch vacuum pumps!

Fair enough, but you have to admit, in a residential setting they are pretty uncommon. I think Metreek would get the best advice if he posts some pictures of the circuit in question with close ups of the breakers and the wiring/conductors. I am willing to bet there is an easy way to convert whatever is there into enough of a circuit to safely run most modern stick inverters or even a mid sized MIG welder.

Re: Existing electrical 240 V 15 A - what can be welded or am I out of luck.

Originally Posted by Louie1961

What makes you think your limit is 15 amps? I have never heard of a 240 volt/15 amp circuit in the US. What country are you located in?

Hey Louie, I actually have seen 240/15 circuits here in the USA!
They were on 1/4 and 1/2 hp Welch vacuum pumps!

Re: Existing electrical 240 V 15 A - what can be welded or am I out of luck.

We use stick welders on 3.2mm rods (1/8") up to around 125 amps, on 13 amp fused plugs over here... Never a problem, unless running long extension leads. The 160 amp stick inverter machines are usually specified with a 16 amp commando plug.

A decent modern inverter MIG will run 200 amps on a 16 amp 240v supply... it shouldn't, but it will.

Re: Existing electrical 240 V 15 A - what can be welded or am I out of luck.

Where is your dry or range to your garage.

Dave

Originally Posted by metreek

hello,
I'm happy to join the forum!. I know that many people like to choose their machines for all sorts of implements, but most have sufficient electrical service. One day in the future, I plan on getting a 240 V 60 amp subpanel in the garage. Unfortunately it is not in the cards right now. I do not have the extra space for large gas cylinders for oxyacetylene. I would also like to do this outside for better ventilation.

This is the reason why I am leaning towards using stick welding at a recommendation from my former coworker. I vaguely remember him saying that stick welding requires slightly less electricity than mig. he was also a big stick welding fan for learning.

The answer to the question of what I my welding? Mostly simple projects in the shop, mild steel, none with required very High safety factor. low duty factor on the welder. Small custom parts. nothing stronger than a steel support for a workbench. ideally, I do not envision any Other parts being thicker than a 1/4" plate. 3/16 inch will probably be more common.I suppose I can go with an eight of an inch.

of course none of this might be possible without getting a subpanel. But I'm having a little bit of difficulty finding The correct information of

1. are there machines that run on this 240 V, 15 amp? safely?
2. What is the maximum thickness of plate of mild steel that can be welded using my power?

my gut is telling me SOL.

Thank you

Re: Existing electrical 240 V 15 A - what can be welded or am I out of luck.

As a matter of interest, in Australia, the ESAB Rebel 235ic is sold with a 15A plug (GPO) and a slightly lower duty cycle (the machine is the same) than in the US.

Typically, a 15A GPO is fed from a 20A CB via 2.4mm2 (#14 gauge) twin and earth and is ubiquitous in "man spaces" for welders. A thirstier welder would require a 32A outlet and from there it would be 3 phase.

As long as the circuit in question is supplied by at least 2.4mm2 twin and earth and there are not significant other concurrent loads, I think your present requirements will be satisfied.

Eventually, you might want to upgrade but by then you will know if welding is a path you want to follow.

Jack

Re: Existing electrical 240 V 15 A - what can be welded or am I out of luck.

I will take a closer look. Maybe I am wrong about the gauge I need to take a closer look. Part of me thinks it's not worth the effort and I should just wait. My dryer outlet is About 30 feet from the door. I didn't know they made extension cords for such high amperage ratings. I suppose you mean to make one myself? that might be the easiest issue way To make one.

In my area, I often see used welding units for significant reduction in price. I always intended to go that route.

Re: Existing electrical 240 V 15 A - what can be welded or am I out of luck.

Very few dedicated 240 volt lines are going to be run in #14 gauge. I would pull it out and verify if it may be #12 wire. Breaker/outlet swap and you will have 20 amp. Worth a look. 240 at 15 amps is a little bit of power. It would be close to 125 amp output available continuous. Short welds up to 160 may be possible even.

Re: Existing electrical 240 V 15 A - what can be welded or am I out of luck.

A dryer outlet is 240 vac Thirty amps

An electrical stove outlet is 240 vac 50 amps.


That and some GOOD Extension cord can do damn near anything.

Re: Existing electrical 240 V 15 A - what can be welded or am I out of luck.

Originally Posted by Louie1961

I am still stuck on the 240 v/15 amp circuit. What size wiring feeds the receptacle, and could this be a dedicated welder circuit? Chances are if it is a dedicated welder circuit, it can be done with 14 gauge wire. The electrical code allows for over rating the breaker relative to the conductors based on duty cycle. Normal amperage charts don't work for a dedicated welder circuit. For instance the owners manual for a Miller Maxstar 161S only calls for 14 gauge feeders in a raceway installation and a 25 amp breaker. I'd really like to know why the OP thinks it is only a 15 amp circuit and what gauge wiring is in place.

Not unusual to have a residential garage intended for storage only to have a 3 wire #14 supplying the whole thing. It also makes sense to upgrade.

Re: Existing electrical 240 V 15 A - what can be welded or am I out of luck.

I am still stuck on the 240 v/15 amp circuit. What size wiring feeds the receptacle, and could this be a dedicated welder circuit? Chances are if it is a dedicated welder circuit, it can be done with 14 gauge wire. The electrical code allows for over rating the breaker relative to the conductors based on duty cycle. Normal amperage charts don't work for a dedicated welder circuit. For instance the owners manual for a Miller Maxstar 161S only calls for 14 gauge feeders in a raceway installation and a 25 amp breaker. I'd really like to know why the OP thinks it is only a 15 amp circuit and what gauge wiring is in place.

Re: Existing electrical 240 V 15 A - what can be welded or am I out of luck.

Originally Posted by M J D

You should be good for close to 140-150 amps of output with a stick inverter. The Esab 180 rouge will do the job at around 650$. There are lower cost inverter machines but many don't have the power factor correction to output decent power at low input current.

A quality inverter (like the ESAB 180 or the older Thermal Arc 161) is your best chance. They are more expensive but they tend to have properly designed power supplies that are more efficient and have power factor correction. Some of the really cheap inverters seem to have high input current requirements.

Re: Existing electrical 240 V 15 A - what can be welded or am I out of luck.

Originally Posted by M J D

No kidding, maybe you could make a spreadsheet.��. Seriously did you read the title, he said a 240 volt 15 amp circuit.

I hadn't had enough coffee yet, lol. I edited my post soon as I saw the blooper, lol. And yes I love making spreadsheets. In fact most of my work is spreadsheets. Those stupid little nerdy things earn me a pretty good darn salary. So yep, bully away. I'll keep making spreadsheets.