Nautilus out of an I-Beam - Questions on Bending

I saw this on Pinterest and it is something I want to try and make a version of.

Attachment 1711905

I'm nothing more than a flux core welder wielding hobbyist that has been tinkering for a year or two at most - so EVERYTHING I do is an experiment/learning experience.

This is a beam I picked up at a scrap yard - roughly 4" x 6" x 10' long:
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I guesstimated the sections to be cut and arrived at 1", 2", 3" and 4-1/2" - the number of each dictated by the count on the original:

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Would have been much better not to have a galvanized beam. Breathing galvanized fumes is very bad. You need to have a proper respirator and exhaust in your shop/garage. Does the scrap yard have any non galvanized beams? You would be far better off considering the amount of work required to the beam. A couple cuts and welds on galvanized is one thing but you're looking at extensive cutting and welding for your project. The last thing you need is zinc chills.

I plan on using a portaband saw to make the cuts, through the top flange, through the web, stopping just as I get to the bottom flange.

Question #1: What tooth type/count and FPM would you recommend to make the cuts?

Once (if) all the cuts are made, comes the hard part - bending each piece by spreading the cuts apart - how to do it.

I don't have a torch kit, but if the consensus is that it will be required to make the bends, then it's on the procurement table with my war department.

Question #2:

Since the cuts/blades are only 0.020" wide, I'm not sure what method would work or not.

* A 3lb hand sledge and good aim?
* Some kind of steel wedge to pound into the cut to start to spread it open?
* A long stout prybar to beat into the cut and try to muscle it open?

My layperson's thoughts include:

* It's probably the lightest I-beam I've come across, hell I can lift and carry the thing around fairly easily.
* The flanges are not particularly thick or beefy, seems to be as noob-friendly as a beam could be.

But every project and effort I've done has brought unforeseen surprises, this time I'm hoping this forum and it's members may be able to warn me off about things I hadn't thought of.

Thanks for looking and thanks in advance for any and all thoughts, ideas, and advice.

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Originally Posted by Welder Dave

Would have been much better not to have a galvanized beam. Breathing galvanized fumes is very bad. You need to have a proper respirator and exhaust in your shop/garage. Does the scrap yard have any non galvanized beams? You would be far better off considering the amount of work required to the beam. A couple cuts and welds on galvanized is one thing but you're looking at extensive cutting and welding for your project. The last thing you need is zinc chills.

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I have a Honeywell half mask and I use the organic vapor/P100 particulate filters at work (copper mine crusher dust in confined spaces). Even though it's here in sunny Arizona I work with the garage door open and a fan blowing on me as I work on stuff. I think that should be adequate here, but this will be the first time I've worked on something this big full of zinc.

It looks like the one you're trying to copy each individual section is welded. Would be good to have a table to lay it out on.

Shootr

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Originally Posted by Shootr

. . . so EVERYTHING I do is an experiment/learning experience . . .

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Galvanized 'donor material' is a non-starter* . . . for your aspirational product.
Pitch - 'all of your good work' in the Dumpster - you are wasting your time . . .


Opus



* J.O. / Univ. Weld Inst. - 'You start with feces - you end with feces' . . .

I looked at the photo for a while and it looks like there wasn't any bending involved at all. I counted approximately 41 I Beam slices that were then welded back together to form the "Nautilus". You will observe the bottom flange has weld on them. If bending was incorporated then there would be no need to weld on bottom flange. Just my .02

I also looks as if the beam only comprises a small portion of sections like 5 chunks? Then it spreads wider. Seems mathematical?

As stated there is no bending done there. And the sculpture is more complex than a so glad beam

I would cut. Form a template(s) and weld. Where a respirator and use a fan outside you should be fine.

You did state a "version of"... So carry on


Good luck

As others have noted, the original is cut and welded, not bent. Bending .20" thick steel isn't hard, though it's a thorough pain in the butt when it's 4.125" wide and you don't have an OA rig and a big table to lay it out on! It's doable, but a ton of aggravation.

I'd first draw out the scroll you want to form. You can use the Fibonnaci sequence to get a nautilus curl going, but that might not be the perfect look for the stock you're trying to form to it. A good starting place, though, and the golden ratio has been used for hundreds of generations.

I used a technique similar to what you are suggesting to make the piece below. I cut part way through the channel then bent using my 20 ton press. Doing it by hand was a no go. My piece of channel was not galvanized so I did not worry about the hazards.

In your instance, the example was cut completely apart then each piece was welded together While this sound like more work, it is actually the easier and correct method. Trust me on this. It will be very hard to cut part way through then try to get all the bends correct. Very hard.

If you are dead set on using your galvanized beam, this also would then make the complete cut and weld method more appropriate. You can cut the beam with your portaband or a cut off wheel. Then take the sections outside away from everything. Put the sections in a bucket with a lid. Pour some muriatic acid in the bucket and close the lid. Wait 20 minutes then remove. If the galvanized is not off, scrub a bit with a wire brush and soak again. Wear face and eye protection the whole time. Once the pieces are clean, dunk in a baking soda and water bath followed up by a fresh water bath.

Getting an I beam that is not galvanized will save you a few hours of work. Maybe use this one for a future project.

Layout your design on the floor or table using the golden ratio as Vaughn and Opus mentioned before. Tack weld both sides of the flange so it does not warp and curl more than you want. If you start at the small pieces and weld one or two at at time, you can then use a grinder to smooth the welds so they are not seen.

Attachment 1711912

To add to my post above, if you are going to use the galvanized beam, leave it in one piece first. Take 10 minutes and run a grinder all over it a few times. If you can remove 40% or more of the galvanization in 10-15 minutes, you will save hours of soak time. That also saves time for the muriatic gases to get where you don't want them and rust everything in sight.

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I also looks as if the beam only comprises a small portion of sections like 5 chunks? Then it spreads wider. Seems mathematical?

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Not a question you asked but a long time ago I learned the mathematical formula that describes the curve of the nautilus. I don't remember it off the top of my head, but you can probably google it. It should be easy to find and will help you lay out your cuts more precisely.

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Originally Posted by Louie1961

Not a question you asked but a long time ago I learned the mathematical formula that describes the curve of the nautilus. I don't remember it off the top of my head, but you can probably google it. It should be easy to find and will help you lay out your cuts more precisely.

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I think you mean the Archimedes spiral. Here's one link and here's another.

Dave

Wow, profuse thanks to everyone (sans one) for taking the time to detail many great observations and advice. I want to address each in a separate reply so if a conversation breaks out, I can keep it straight lol. Again, thank you all.

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Originally Posted by Welder Dave

It looks like the one you're trying to copy each individual section is welded. Would be good to have a table to lay it out on.

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Originally Posted by BOP101

I looked at the photo for a while and it looks like there wasn't any bending involved at all. I counted approximately 41 I Beam slices that were then welded back together to form the "Nautilus". You will observe the bottom flange has weld on them. If bending was incorporated then there would be no need to weld on bottom flange. Just my .02

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When I stopped by my welding supply shop, they also noted that the original looks cut and welded. My thought was that if it could be bent instead it would look cleaner. He too had doubts about being able to spread each cut symmetrically and keep the overall shape plumb and straight.

The other fear I have is warp - I'm still learning how to control it as best I can, so trying to weld 40 +/- pieces straight seems like worse odds than bending it :blush2:.

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Originally Posted by tapwelder

I also looks as if the beam only comprises a small portion of sections like 5 chunks? Then it spreads wider. Seems mathematical?

As stated there is no bending done there. And the sculpture is more complex than a so glad beam

I would cut. Form a template(s) and weld. Where a respirator and use a fan outside you should be fine.

You did state a "version of"... So carry on


Good luck

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Originally Posted by VaughnT

As others have noted, the original is cut and welded, not bent. Bending .20" thick steel isn't hard, though it's a thorough pain in the butt when it's 4.125" wide and you don't have an OA rig and a big table to lay it out on! It's doable, but a ton of aggravation.

I'd first draw out the scroll you want to form. You can use the Fibonnaci sequence to get a nautilus curl going, but that might not be the perfect look for the stock you're trying to form to it. A good starting place, though, and the golden ratio has been used for hundreds of generations.

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Originally Posted by Louie1961

Not a question you asked but a long time ago I learned the mathematical formula that describes the curve of the nautilus. I don't remember it off the top of my head, but you can probably google it. It should be easy to find and will help you lay out your cuts more precisely.

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Originally Posted by dmcnally

I think you mean the Archimedes spiral. Here's one link and here's another.

Dave

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The two links Dave posted are what I've been researching. In my opinion, the nautilus shape falls in between the two - looser than the Archimedes example, but tighter than the Fibonacci equation. The "golden spiral" link had another link that explains phyllotaxis (wow am I getting schooled!!!) which is closest to what I am trying to achieve.

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Originally Posted by Shootr

The two links Dave posted are what I've been researching. In my opinion, the nautilus shape falls in between the two - looser than the Archimedes example, but tighter than the Fibonacci equation. The "golden spiral" link had another link that explains phyllotaxis (wow am I getting schooled!!!) which is closest to what I am trying to achieve.

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You are likely correct about the tight Fibonacci spiral. I have found it difficult to maintain a manageable size if you create it from a pattern. It takes off/grows fast. Note the fib scroll is just connected 1/4 circles of increasing size. So, gauges are easy to make for you to hold against your sculpture.

I once did some work for a wrought iron dealer. Aside from trying to make a business selling only antique wrought iron his fatal mistake was buying it from the Middle East. The Archimedes scroll appears to be most common there. So, his stuff was not appealing considering what folk are used to seeing. Quality and workmanship and traditional joinery were there, but the scroll (spiral) look was different. It was not difficult to determine regions from where items came from by design.

Good luck

If I'm allowed to stay on this forum, you'll soon see I have no shortage of weird off the wall ideas...:D

So what if I cut into the bottom flange a little, making a score line if you will. Then put a piece of stout angle iron under the beam at the bend point, and use something like this to wail into the saw cut to try and spread it.

Attachment 1711926

Possible need to scab on a wider wedge that would be the full width of the beam? Or get really fancy and upgrade to a hydraulic/manual log splitter and modify it to work!

Attachment 1711927

I would not expect difficulty bending is your reduced the flange to a bout 1/8 inch. The wedge would work.

Got heat? Then you.could just cut away the web.

The difference between .2 and .125 is substantial when bending manually.

I think it could be bent. If you draw out a pattern on cardboard & bend one segment at a time matched to your template, then tack a brace across the open end to hold it in place, then cut & bend the next segment, & so on. I would try to start with the tightest bends 1st - more leverage for those tougher bends. A come a long would be my tool for force & I would start with a riser in the middle to hold the cable at enough angle to get leverage to get it started (think truss with cable as rafters). Once you get the curl started there should be enough leverage to make the rest of the bends.

That's slick for sure. I'm gonna have to check my I-beam stock for length and thickness.
Saw cutting would definitely be cleaner then cutting and welding. Depending on beam size and your cutting tools I would saw cut.
As a reminder, you can cut straight from top flange, through web AND into the inside of bottom flange. That inside saw kerf will make forming the bend easier.
A stout welding table would help and a come a long. A car or truck rim may work for a jig to bend around. Lots of options.
I'm looking forward to seeing it IF you try it.
Good luck.


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Originally Posted by tapwelder

I would not expect difficulty bending is your reduced the flange to a bout 1/8 inch. The wedge would work.

Got heat? Then you.could just cut away the web.

The difference between .2 and .125 is substantial when bending manually.

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Originally Posted by cwby

I think it could be bent. If you draw out a pattern on cardboard & bend one segment at a time matched to your template, then tack a brace across the open end to hold it in place, then cut & bend the next segment, & so on. I would try to start with the tightest bends 1st - more leverage for those tougher bends. A come a long would be my tool for force & I would start with a riser in the middle to hold the cable at enough angle to get leverage to get it started (think truss with cable as rafters). Once you get the curl started there should be enough leverage to make the rest of the bends.

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Originally Posted by BD1

That's slick for sure. I'm gonna have to check my I-beam stock for length and thickness.
Saw cutting would definitely be cleaner then cutting and welding. Depending on beam size and your cutting tools I would saw cut.
As a reminder, you can cut straight from top flange, through web AND into the inside of bottom flange. That inside saw kerf will make forming the bend easier.
A stout welding table would help and a come a long. A car or truck rim may work for a jig to bend around. Lots of options.
I'm looking forward to seeing it IF you try it.
Good luck.


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Would any of you have advice on what tooth count and blade speed I should try with the portaband saw?

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Originally Posted by Shootr

Would any of you have advice on what tooth count and blade speed I should try with the portaband saw?

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The general rule I learned at the junior college I went to is: 3 saw teeth across the thickness of the item being cut. For the 0.2" web (straight up and down) that works out to 15tpi. If you go flat across the top of the I beam, then you'd want a more agressive blade (4-6 tpi). If you cut the top of the I beam at an angle, then the 15tpi blade would work okay.

I use Lennox blades in my horizontal bandsaw. They have guides to help you choose the right blade on their website.

Good luck,
Dave

Shootr


'non sequiturs' have consequences . . .

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Originally Posted by Shootr

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Either - you are 'technically [a fool] challenged' - or you are Spam . . .


Opus

test post

Is there any make or model of a portaband that will cut down 6 inches? I like the log splitter idea to bend it but will it be able to get all the way around once it gets past 180 degrees? It also looks like in the picture that there's a backer that goes all the way around the spiral. I would assume that's what the dots are in the center of the beam segments?

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Originally Posted by ferrret3238

Is there any make or model of a portaband that will cut down 6 inches? I like the log splitter idea to bend it but will it be able to get all the way around once it gets past 180 degrees? It also looks like in the picture that there's a backer that goes all the way around the spiral. I would assume that's what the dots are in the center of the beam segments?

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Not that I know of. Mine goes down to a bit over 5", so I'll have a lot of manual sawing to get the last 1/4" or so.

Once I know if it will bend as I hope (or can deal with), the plan is as follows:

*Strip all the zinc
*Make all the cuts
*Start with the narrow slices and bend to shape.

I think doing the bends in that sequence, I'll avoid getting jammed into an inaccessible curve.

I'm hoping to start stripping the coating off tonight so I can do a test cut and bend to see what I get.

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Originally Posted by Shootr

Not that I know of. Mine goes down to a bit over 5", so I'll have a lot of manual sawing to get the last 1/4" or so.

Once I know if it will bend as I hope (or can deal with), the plan is as follows:

*Strip all the zinc
*Make all the cuts
*Start with the narrow slices and bend to shape.

I think doing the bends in that sequence, I'll avoid getting jammed into an inaccessible curve.

I'm hoping to start stripping the coating off tonight so I can do a test cut and bend to see what I get.

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Research F-bar. Blacksmiths use them. i have several different sizes. You can make a large on for your specific.purpose. I have a 3.foot long set made from 1.25" pipe I use for twisting. A long handle will give you a bunch of leverage.

Why strip all zinc? Looks? If health related wear proper ppe .throw clothes away if really concerned?

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Originally Posted by tapwelder

Research F-bar. Blacksmiths use them. i have several different sizes. You can make a large on for your specific.purpose. I have a 3.foot long set made from 1.25" pipe I use for twisting. A long handle will give you a bunch of leverage.

Why strip all zinc? Looks? If health related wear proper ppe .throw clothes away if really concerned?

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Man, I thought I was a pretty googler, but I'll be darned if I can pull up a pic of an f-bar.

Luckily, the name says it all and I have a pretty good picture in mind of what it is and how to use it - because as you'll see in my next post - it's EXACTLY what I will need for this!

As far as the stripping the zinc, I like the rust patina better than painting. Everyone has warned me about the zinc chills, so I want to be careful. Everything I've read says it isn't dangerous, just can make you feel like crap for a few days with no lingering health issues to worry about.

I was having a bad day and needed to take a break, so I geared up to do a quick cut and bend test on the beam - the curiosity of what I'm in for me was killing as well.

I wore a mask and had pretty much everything on me covered when I used a flapper disc to clean off the zinc where I'd be working. Next I hand held the portaband and made the first cut at the 1" mark and went down as far as I could go. As I had only marked the top, the cut was slightly crooked - in the future I'll have both sides marked all the way down the web. I used the 18 tooth blade already on it at 350FPM with cutting oil, but it wanted to grab and catch. A little squirrely but manageable.

Attachment 1711960

That's as far as the saw could take me, so I tried a cutoff wheel in the dremel, and it worked to cut the rest of the web surprisingly well. I did not make the score line on the bottom flange at this time - I wanted to see how it bent without it.

Attachment 1711961

Using an 8" prybar I was able to easily spread the cut apart, but the uncut flange wasn't bending - the web seemed to be.

I then took a pipe wrench and clamped onto the uncut flange as close to the web as I could and gave it a few shots - wasn't really bending as I wanted. As another test, I took the portaband and scored the outside flat of the bottom flange just a touch, less than 1/8". That seemed to be the ticket, this time with the pipe wrench I was getting the flange to bend.

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Realizing I wouldn't be able to use a wrench like this on the rest of the bends, I started trying to figure out what tool could grab the flange on the side and with enough leverage let me bend each cut as I progressed through the length of the beam.

And along comes TapWelder to save the day with the F-Bar tip. Even though I can't find a picture of one - I'm pretty sure what it is, and will be able to make one easily for my project.

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This weekend I'll do test #2:

• Saw cut with a new, courser tooth blade
• Mark the cut line all the way down on both sides
• Put the beam on the ground and off the jack stands to cut (oops)
• Use the dremel to cut a score line on the inside flat of the flange
• Make an appropriately sized f-bar tool or two to bend with
• Bend the beam and see how it comes out.

This is going to be a long process but when I work slow and don't push myself too hard - I think I'm on track for a fairly successful effort.

But if someone has a pic or two of an F-Bar, I'd be greatly appreciative if you posted it! :waving:

EDIT:

"Bending Fork" - I knew if I could find the right keyword I'd get it lol...

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I would jam in a wedge when making the cut. Better yet make up several as a lot of the bending can be done with wedges.

Today's test went much better - kind of...

Started by trying to make a couple of bending bars out of 1/8" scrap angle iron and 1/2" steel rod. Thought I was welding effectively but my first try I could snap the end rod off of each one:
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Turned the wire feed speed down, cleaned up the area, and the second try stuck much better:
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Next I wanted to see if I would be able to use the home made chop saw frame - it works great, but I have to stop and start to move the beam around to clear various parts of the saw frame. But it got down pretty far and mostly straight. Using a wedge once the flange was cut through did help, thanks again for the valuable tip - 18 tooth blade with lots of cuts on it already glided thru like butter.
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To finish the cut, I first tried a cut off wheel in the angle grinder - it worked OK but again I have to really pay attention to keep it straight when cutting down for the bend score line. I did use the dremel to get into the web/flange joint to cut it down as best I could. I still didn't cut quite deep enough, but it did bend as I wanted.
Attachment 1711991

The bender bars are strong enough that they started to bend up the corners of the flange while the cut and flange didn't budge.

The last things I need to fine tune is how to finish the cut and a way to more easily keep the beam plumb and square as I reposition it several times throughout the cut. I'm going to buy some metal blades for the jigsaw and the sawzall - between the two I'm hoping they will allow me to finish the cut without using cut off wheels.

You need to practice your welding some, maybe a lot, more and I think you would save yourself a lot of hassle and frustration by building it the same way the original was, in individual pieces. If you had a steel table you could draw the layout and line all your pieces up. Flanges would all be straight and not distorted from trying to bend them. The edges would be flat and line up on both sides. I think your making the project a lot more complicated than it needs to be.

No ifs, ands, or buts - I need a lot of practice. I also need a real welder vs my HF flux core unit, a dedicated welding table, bigger bandsaw, and a shop to put it all in.

These projects are my practice - I learn a lot doing them and if I happen to end up with something I like, it's a bonus.

Welding without warping is another challenge for me. At my skill level, pretty sure cutting and bending may give a better result than trying 40 symmetrical welds.

Cutting individual pieces would be a lot easier to follow a pattern. You could lay it out on the floor if need be. Lots of fabrications have been laid out on the shop floor.

Drill holes for round stock and weld on backside too. It will take more abuse.


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Wear eye and face protection if you use a jig saw or recip. Both violently throw large hot particles with force. Cover hands and arm may be desired, depending on your rhythm and how much you like dancing.

Good luck with your project. I look forward to the final results.

Attachment 1712057

Made all the cuts today. Used the bandsaw and got all but one pretty straight - darn saw started to walk and I wasn't watching close enough.

Finished the cuts with a 24tpi sawzall blade. This also worked pretty good - I tried to really slow down and pay attention. A lot of chattering and vibration towards the end from the beam flexibility.

Attachment 1712058

It's pretty bendy as is, so forming it to shape isn't going to be a problem. Now I'm kind of wondering if it will be "springy" when finished. Done for today, I want to be fresh and rested when I start the final step.

What portaband to you have ? The later Milwaukees have a guide with opening for blade. Older saws had a single foot.
The wider guide does a nicer job


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Originally Posted by BD1

What portaband to you have ? The later Milwaukees have a guide with opening for blade. Older saws had a single foot.
The wider guide does a nicer job


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Good ol' HF...I bought it when I sold my first piece of "art" - a M134 minigun replica. Another person on here shared some pics and drawings of a chop saw stand so I made a version of it last week.

Attachment 1712063

Time to try the bending...

Seems to be a pretty fine line to not cutting enough and cutting too much. Mostly didn't cut enough initially so I had the sawzall at the ready and fine tuned each cut. I used a prybar to initially open up each cut, then the bender bars to get to the desired angle. The bender bars didn't work too well - they put the leverage in the wrong place.

I took a piece of angle iron and notched the corner - it worked the best once the cut was opened up far enough.

Attachment 1712093

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Lessons learned at this juncture include: bending the big angles without heat probably not the best idea - I needed 45 degrees for the first bend, but by 35 degrees the flange kind of looked like it wanted to crack. I cracked the web on the second piece while trying to bend - it'll need to be cut off, the flange bent to the correct angle, and the web welded back on.

As I keep saying - all these bumps in the road are teaching me practical lessons, or at least where my ability limits are currently :).
Attachment 1712095

Don't pick on yourself, it's a long learning curve. I always forget that I started this stuff as compulsory after hours maintenance work for the family construction company... at 12-13 years of age.

It is getting there.

As you are finding out, scoring the flange is pretty much going to be required.

As BD1 mentioned, your bending bars or "F" with the round bar will work better if you drill a hole through the angle, pass the rods through, then weld the other side. You may need the rods to be longer and larger as you proceed so the angle clears the outside of the beam.

It is coming along.

The bending bars have limits when the radius gets tight. If you have tubing that will fit over the pins it may allow you to get tighter bends and allow you do put leverage where you want. As they are the bars will be more useful as you move outward. As mentioned I have several.

I agree, it is teaching valuable lessons.

When I bend smooth/continuous... I feel it in my hands, rather than see it. Yet you are dealing with an discrete part and you will probably need to see the bend on that tight are.

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Originally Posted by psacustomcreations

It is getting there.

As you are finding out, scoring the flange is pretty much going to be required.

As BD1 mentioned, your bending bars or "F" with the round bar will work better if you drill a hole through the angle, pass the rods through, then weld the other side. You may need the rods to be longer and larger as you proceed so the angle clears the outside of the beam.

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I think as I get to the wider pieces, I have a feeling (ok, hope) that it will get a little easier.

Is angle iron a good material to make F bars out of? Next time around, what thickness do you think - and what bar diameter? Drilling holes to pass the bar through should be easy enough. Or is there another design more rookie-builder-friendly?

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Originally Posted by tapwelder

It is coming along.

The bending bars have limits when the radius gets tight. If you have tubing that will fit over the pins it may allow you to get tighter bends and allow you do put leverage where you want. As they are the bars will be more useful as you move outward. As mentioned I have several.

I agree, it is teaching valuable lessons.

When I bend smooth/continuous... I feel it in my hands, rather than see it. Yet you are dealing with an discrete part and you will probably need to see the bend on that tight are.

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As I was getting into it today, that's how things progressed - eyeballing and just feeling what the metal was doing, or wanted to do, or DIDN'T want to do. With the notched bar it was really apparent, could feel as each bend started to move and where. Keeping things straight was actually one of the easier parts.

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Originally Posted by Shootr

I think as I get to the wider pieces, I have a feeling (ok, hope) that it will get a little easier.

Is angle iron a good material to make F bars out of? Next time around, what thickness do you think - and what bar diameter? Drilling holes to pass the bar through should be easy enough. Or is there another design more rookie-builder-friendly?

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Angle is great for that f bar. If you have some 1/4"×2" or 1/4"×1-1/2" angle it qpuld be fine. The pins can be 1/2"-3/4" round bar or whatever you can find.
Drill the hole through then weld the backside.
It looks like your welds were cold. There was very little fusion. That is why they peeled off. Increase heat and weld.
Or you could get some big bolts, cut the heas off and put nuts on both sides of the angle.
If you slide some pipe over the pins to give you more reach once you get farther along you will lose some space between the pins so take that into account.

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HF Porta-band and a large Snap-On toolbox... What's going on there?

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Originally Posted by Welder Dave

HF Porta-band and a large Snap-On toolbox... What's going on there?

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I was a dealer in eastern Arizona for a lot of years - that was a trade in box that I kept for myself. First KRL I came across with the side cabinet built in, not added on - that was part of the reason the owner got such a great deal on his new Plum Crazy Purple top/bottom replacement box.

Since I don't make a living with my tools, I now steer toward more budget friendly tools when possible. I'd never trust their hand tools for longevity, but no denying some things are a pretty good bang for the buck. I picked up the $20 HF sawzall 10 years ago for a railroad tie project, cut a whole mess of them, and 10 years of other stuff - I can't kill that thing.

That's the other thing that will become apparent the longer I'm allowed to hang around here - I can be a cheap sob, always looking for the best value when I can. As I get a feel for the basics of welding, a name brand mig welder will be the next purchase - I think I've pushed the HF flux core past even my feeble skill level...

Imo, you're using your scrolling forks wrong. I've made and used quite a few of them over the years, but they don't work well in an application like yours.

What I'd opt for instead is a closed system that operates like a mobile Hossfield bender. 1" bars of mild steel spaced to fully clear the entire i-beam, welded to a pair of arms that are some 4' long or even longer. The bottom crossbar is positioned on the outside of the beam directly under the solid flange and acts as the fulcrum around which the metal bends. The upper crossbar should bite into the flange that's on the moving section of beam.

Does that make sense?

Anyhow, with the scrolling wrenches tied together, they support each other and get the job done a lot smoother.

Hmmmmmm.....

Attachment 1712146

Attachment 1712147

Attachment 1712148

Still a lot of cleanup to do, as well as figure out a mount or base. I also need to figure out if/how to tighten up the radius where indicated - as I progressed I kept going back to fine tune the shape, but once I passed a point of no return I couldn't figure out how to adjust things inside the coiled area.

Attachment 1712149

But still very pleased with the progress.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VaughnT

Imo, you're using your scrolling forks wrong. I've made and used quite a few of them over the years, but they don't work well in an application like yours.

What I'd opt for instead is a closed system that operates like a mobile Hossfield bender. 1" bars of mild steel spaced to fully clear the entire i-beam, welded to a pair of arms that are some 4' long or even longer. The bottom crossbar is positioned on the outside of the beam directly under the solid flange and acts as the fulcrum around which the metal bends. The upper crossbar should bite into the flange that's on the moving section of beam.

Does that make sense?

Anyhow, with the scrolling wrenches tied together, they support each other and get the job done a lot smoother.

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Very clear - thank you for the idea.

Looks really good.

Tack Weld or pin it to the table. Rotate it as needed. Make sure you can access your welds to grind remove them.

Hey, I worked in the copper industry for nearly 25 years, 9 years in Ajo, as a diesel lo, where are you located??comotive mechanic, & 15 at Hidalgo Smelter in New Mexico as a loco mechanic, , machinist apprenticeship & machinist, left Hidalgo & copper in 99 when the smelter shut down

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CAVEMANN

Hey, I worked in the copper industry for nearly 25 years, 9 years in Ajo, as a diesel lo, where are you located??comotive mechanic, & 15 at Hidalgo Smelter in New Mexico as a loco mechanic, , machinist apprenticeship & machinist, left Hidalgo & copper in 99 when the smelter shut down

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I'm based in Phoenix, the properties I take care of for my company are all the Arizona Freeport ones. I don't much physical labor anymore, mostly surveys and audits of the conveyors - troubleshooting issues for them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CAVEMANN

Hey, I worked in the copper industry for nearly 25 years, 9 years in Ajo, as a diesel lo, where are you located??comotive mechanic, & 15 at Hidalgo Smelter in New Mexico as a loco mechanic, , machinist apprenticeship & machinist, left Hidalgo & copper in 99 when the smelter shut down

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That's why I asked you about ALCOs sometime back, I was under the assumption you worked for ASARCO, my bad. They had RS-3 ALCOs.

May be a little on the small side, but possibly have found a base for the nautilus:

Attachment 1712190

3/8" thick x 24" diameter - little over 50lbs. Once I figure out the balance points on the steel I'll have a better idea if it will work or not. But for $25 I couldn't pass it up...

Oh yea, fooling around with filters last night...
Attachment 1712194

Determining balance point is nice with overhead chainfall for lifting. A tree limb can be handy too. Fortunately, with steel a couple of tacks will hold.
Safety is a issue with something that heavy.
It's turning out nicely.


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Nice work, waiting to see the finished piece.

This is awesome, keep up the good work! We are excited to see it standing!

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by BD1

Determining balance point is nice with overhead chainfall for lifting. A tree limb can be handy too. Fortunately, with steel a couple of tacks will hold.
Safety is a issue with something that heavy.
It's turning out nicely.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Now if I just had a tree...:blush2: I wonder if the neighbor will loan me his - not a lot to choose from here in the desert :laugh:!

Gotta say, I was one of those doubters, but you really proved yourself with this one!

Never would have guessed it'd come out looking so sweet, especially with the filtered shot!

Very much looking forward to seeing what's next.

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Originally Posted by chickenfarmer

This is awesome, keep up the good work! We are excited to see it standing!

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by LtBadd

Nice work, waiting to see the finished piece.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by VaughnT

Gotta say, I was one of those doubters, but you really proved yourself with this one!

Never would have guessed it'd come out looking so sweet, especially with the filtered shot!

Very much looking forward to seeing what's next.

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I really appreciate the positive words. I know I can be mule stubborn sometimes (like insisting on bending rather cut/weld this effort) but whatever I seem to be doing, it'll either work, it'll work but with consequences, or it'll fail. But whatever the outcome, I learn something(s) for the next time. (Took three tries to get the portaband stand to work lol).

I should add that my trial/error approach only pertains to things non-structural and in no way could possibly cause harm to anyone or anything.

Shootr, I just got around to reading your thread from the beginning. I have to say, that at the start I thought "...what has this guy gotten himself into??" After seeing all the suggestions and the steps that you took to fab this thing out, I have to now say, you did a spectacular job doing something that large, that you had never done before and ended up with a work of art. Job well done!

It's freaking awesome.

I read this whole thread. Thanks for sharing. Shootr, you said something about cutting the second wing or web (what you call it) and weld back? I would use a copper backer and fill in the stress crack with ss or SillBronze. I would fill the crack with SilliBronz if your panting. The load is on the fatter end. That round plate looks like a good base. I think you need to find the fulcrum or center of balance tho. Just make it concentric.

Ya know, another tool I just "designed" in my mind and think could be handy is basically a spin on the ol' nut-splitter or gear puller.

You create a frame that's got a 6-1/2" clearance so you can slip it in place around the I-beam, and then use a drill to drive a wedge down into the cut you've made. The angle of the wedge dictates how much spread there'd be, and you could swap out wedges so you could have something with a thin taper for starting and then something with a thicker taper for pushing that last bit.

Once you get the bend started, you could even swap out the wedge for a bit of round bar.

I was skeptical from the beginning as well but very well done. Love the filter pic.

Yay, no more killing myself trying to lift and move stuff! (I posted the details in the "Shop Layout" forum).

NOW I can finally finish this sucker - super easy to find the balance point and play with ideas before committing to the base. I like the little hoop and leaving the end uncut - makes it look lighter I think.

Attachment 1712350

Attachment 1712351

And again, thank you for the encouragement and positive comments - it's been a rewarding few weeks!

Attachment 1712359

When I go to weld this, should I heat up the plate first and then weld the I-beam to it? (HF Flux core 125) Should the wire speed be on the faster or slower side to get the best penetration?

Drum roll please...

Attachment 1712371

Attachment 1712372

I did use a portable torch to preheat the base plate, as the first attempt to tack it looked really cold. The rest of the welding went pretty good, for a HF FCAW (I did do the DCEN modification on it though). Don't be too harsh - but providing full disclosure lol!

Attachment 1712373
Attachment 1712374

Bonus shot from the missus...

Attachment 1712375

Next project - cleaning and organizing the garage :laugh:.

Awesome job !!! That turned out great.
Hard to believe what a guy can make in a few hours. [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]


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You should get someone with a portable welder to come over and weld it for you. The nautilus looks neat but the bottom looks unfinished. I probably would have cut the beam on an angle and welded the full beam to the plate without the pipe for support. Kind of a gravity defying type of thing.

The connection point is fine provide IF the weld is sound . The weld/machine is suspect. I would agree with finding somebody to weld it. Or get a larger welder. Is the ring welded providing support?

To the OP, really great work figuring that out and sticking with it. I find what you have achieved inspiring.

I also really want to ask the iron butthole what it feels like having a nautilus reinforcing his spine after a virtual rectal implantation.:laugh:

Mitering the beam may have a better appearance to many. With art sculptures, everyone has different views and sees it differently. You paint something white and they want black. [emoji23]


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The nautilus looks fantastic!!!

The welding no so fan....I agree with adding additional welding...those welds look a bit bird-poopy and cold. Takes away from the beauty of the nautilus and might not be so strong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tapwelder

The connection point is fine provide IF the weld is sound . The weld/machine is suspect. I would agree with finding somebody to weld it. Or get a larger welder. Is the ring welded providing support?

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The ring is purely decorative. Once the beam was welded, I let off the hoist, the cuts all relaxed a hair, then it just sat there.

I moneyed around with it and some of the cuts started to bend - but zero flex at the weld.

I like the ring and the decision to leave the end of the I-beam square. To me it looks more delicate and reinforces the "balancing" aspect of the piece. Where the beam meets the plate, the entire piece's balance point is right at that spot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hddnis

I also really want to ask the iron butthole what it feels like having a nautilus reinforcing his spine after a virtual rectal implantation.:laugh:

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I probably need to drink some more to figure this one out :)

Nice work on the piece.

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Originally Posted by Shootr

I probably need to drink some more to figure this one out :)

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Iron Butthole told you your material was trash, called you a fool and a troll, etc. His shtick is condescending on anyone who does anything differently than he would do it. The ferrony (irony--haha! I crack myself up) is that he never does anything, so my theory is he really can't weld or work with metal at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hddnis

Iron Butthole told you your material was trash, called you a fool and a troll, etc. His shtick is condescending on anyone who does anything differently than he would do it. The ferrony (irony--haha! I crack myself up) is that he never does anything, so my theory is he really can't weld or work with metal at all.

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I had a feeling that's what it was about - I hit the "Ignore" button as soon as I read it and some of his other posts. Every forum has at least one.

You might want to add reinforcing weld to your bends or it could become a disaster. Heavy wind or people look at it and can't keep their hands off it, etc. The welds on the base are not good. Just leaving the beam straight looks unfinished to me. Look at the base on the one you copied. Much more thought in it. You have a great project but it seems only 75% done in my opinion. Was the idea to get it done as fast as possible or make it look as cool as possible?

WTF !

https://images.platforum.cloud/uploads/202...aba5ede77f.jpg
https://images.platforum.cloud/uploads/202...985acf8dd0.jpg


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shootr

The ring is purely decorative. Once the beam was welded, I let off the hoist, the cuts all relaxed a hair, then it just sat there.

I moneyed around with it and some of the cuts started to bend - but zero flex at the weld.

I like the ring and the decision to leave the end of the I-beam square. To me it looks more delicate and reinforces the "balancing" aspect of the piece. Where the beam meets the plate, the entire piece's balance point is right at that spot.

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Years ago I read in my. lincoln welding handbook the briefly discuss joint design/failure. That was a sound weld failure. One failure described was a hinge similar to your design. you built in some relief since the structures flexed.

You essentially have no weld supporting it. Remove all the flux to visually see the lack of fusion. Cut a sample weld it and break it...test it. Spend some time testing a some weld joints

The HF 125 is a no-go.

Apparently, Opus stated what many folk admittedly thought. I suspect he would question your weld in a not so amicable, yet true tone.

I did not doubt, the only thing left to finish is a safe weld.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Welder Dave

You might want to add reinforcing weld to your bends or it could become a disaster. Heavy wind or people look at it and can't keep their hands off it, etc. The welds on the base are not good. Just leaving the beam straight looks unfinished to me. Look at the base on the one you copied. Much more thought in it. You have a great project but it seems only 75% done in my opinion. Was the idea to get it done as fast as possible or make it look as cool as possible?

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I wasn't in a hurry by any means, and as I mentioned in the opening post I knew this would only be a version of the pictured example.

My skill level and quality of welder/tools was at best going to allow me to get this far. I know the welds look like ****e but I could really see the puddle well. It sure looked like the pre-heated plate was getting penetrated as well as the beam.

Each weld was done with a slightly different attempt. The short flat one was mostly dragging straight with a little bit of weaving. The short fat one was much slower travel, I'd linger on the plate a bit, then up to the flange, etc. The long one on the underside of the beam was three tacks, then dragging in between.

I promise to keep practicing my welding, and as I mentioned before as well, I wouldn't think of putting anything in public that wasnt absolutely bullet proof - my yard is safe for this kind of stuff.

Years ago I read in my. lincoln welding handbook a brief discussion on joint design/failure. One failure described was a hinge similar to your design. It repeatedly failed due to vibration and interference from another structure. That was a sound weld. You built in some relief since the structures flexed, yet do not have a sound weld and vibration is ever present.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tapwelder

Years ago I read in my. lincoln welding handbook a brief discussion on joint design/failure. One failure described was a hinge similar to your design. It repeatedly failed due to vibration and interference from another structure. That was a sound weld. You built in some relief since the structures flexed, yet do not have a sound weld and vibration is ever present.

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Thanks for the follow up. I hear what you're saying about the flex being a saving grace in this instance, am I correct that no matter what, the type of connection I made just shouldn't be done without some sort of gusset or support or third member of some kind? (And a capable welder voltage/amperage wise)

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Originally Posted by John T

WTF !

https://images.platforum.cloud/uploads/202...aba5ede77f.jpg
https://images.platforum.cloud/uploads/202...985acf8dd0.jpg


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Attachment 1712398

The welds or attempted welds don't lie. Have someone more experienced redo them. Doesn't matter what you think you saw, they are examples of what welds shouldn't look like.

Looks great, especially right there in the yard like that.

As for the welds.... get yourself an old stick welder for cheap on the FB Marketplace, grind out those beads you have there, and lay in some 7018. Multiple passes just to make sure things are good.

Your welds might hold right now, but as that curl catches the wind and you get load applied, it'll be anyone's guess when the beads pop because they aren't sunk deep into the steel. Even with your little welder, you're far better off grinding out the beads you've laid and going over them again to get better fusion. You've likely got a good bond in spots, but there are too many gaps. Water will collect, rust will form, and your bond will only get weaker with time. Add in the wind and the freeze/thaw movement as it warms and cools overnight.... well, better safe than sorry.

Overall, though, very impressive. You didn't have a million-dollar shop filled with amazing tools, but you conquered nonetheless. That's something to be proud of and I'm sure I'll be using this thread as an example of what can be done if you put your mind to it.

Give your weld a 'stress test' put a lever on there and try to put some bend on it... if they hold then it's good enough for yard art if not then you'll get more practice welding :)

I see welds like that all the time on DOT inspected trailers... not saying it's a good thing at 70mph but hey... they passed it ;) you really do need a bigger welder :)

Attachment 1712412
Attachment 1712413

Do you know how many hours I have spent cutting and mostly grinding garbage like that out doing trailer rebuilds. Sheesh... :angry:

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Originally Posted by 12V71

Do you know how many hours I have spent cutting and mostly grinding garbage like that out doing trailer rebuilds. Sheesh... :angry:

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Oh... I can imagine.... I probably see similar on about 1 of 10 trailers I look at...

Maybe add Bondo it look great. No will know it will pass inspection

It would do great in earthquake. More work after earthquake.

Dave

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ronsii

Give your weld a 'stress test' put a lever on there and try to put some bend on it... if they hold then it's good enough for yard art if not then you'll get more practice welding :)

I see welds like that all the time on DOT inspected trailers... not saying it's a good thing at 70mph but hey... they passed it ;) you really do need a bigger welder :)

Attachment 1712412
Attachment 1712413

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Shootr

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Originally Posted by tapwelder

Attachment 1712374

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'Just the facts ma'am' . . .

Most choose 'a Cherry on Top' to anoint their master work - since the
base was your final operation - you properly chose 'Scrotal Gangrene'
for dedication . . .

Kudos ^ ^ ^ for gutting thru your project - everyone has a beginning -

Wrought Iron is hammer forged Hot Stock with cause [ornamental iron
is fake Wrought Iron] your piece is yard-art, because it lacks foundation
of your original inspiration.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tapwelder

Attachment 1711905

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The graduations of a Chambered Nautilus, is not - Fibonacci, the Golden
Ratio - or other guesses . . .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logarithmic_spiral

Another - natural foundational reference is Circinate Vernation . . .

https://www.google.com/search?q=circ...w=1195&bih=974

Your dedication to your new hobby is without question - reward yourself
with research - and your product will rise . . .

hth


Opus



ps - can I include the top photo in my 2021 WW Calendar . . .




.

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Originally Posted by John T

WTF !

https://images.platforum.cloud/uploads/202...aba5ede77f.jpg
https://images.platforum.cloud/uploads/202...985acf8dd0.jpg


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But it's art!

I would echo Vaughn 's suggestions. If you are in the American market, old 225 AC buzz boxes sell used for less than $100 and would fix that up in a heart beat. If you really want to step up to the plate look for an old Lincoln tombstone AC/DC ( should be able to find a decent one under $300... which still irritates me... but it's overkill for what you are doing). What I would suggest differently for a first timer is that you use 7014 or 6013 rods... much easier to work with for a piece that isn't structurally critical and it would hold that just fine. I've been using them for years to repair farm equipment. Overall, the piece is looking good.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OPUS FERRO

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I find your writing/comment style tedious and unnecessarily crass in most instances, hence the reason I hit the "Ignore" button on you.

I realize you are trying to help and will not fault you for that. I join forums to learn, to share, to enjoy - and posts that give me headaches from trying to decipher wandering thoughts, "un-followable" punctuation, and needless font changes are not my cup of tea.

No idea what picture you are referring to re: calendar.