Old Farts TIG Welding Class

[soutthpaw]

From the little that I have done so far, aluminum is a lot more fun that mild steel.. have not tried stainless or brass/copper TIG yet.

[B_C]

Copper is pretty easy, you have to use Helium and copper filler. Welds up just like steel.....DC-

[JD955SC]

Interesting to see the class demographic. I think it really shows the effect of removing vocational ed classes and facilities from middle and high schools over the last 25 years or so. Without a source for initial exposure, students don't develop an interest or awareness of the trades .. should get lots of 1 on 1 instruction. will be nice if you can get to doing some aluminum too.

You aren't kidding. I fell for the "Gotta have a 4 year college degree" crap and am now going back to the local tech college to learn welding because honestly, doing stuff with your hands is a lot more exciting than the job I have.

[puddytat]

Hi, you're coming from a different background, if you had started out welding then went on to get a degree and used that to further your career, that would have made more sense.

If you're already advanced in life, that is married, family, mortgage, car payments and all the good things you get with a decent education, you'll find going backwards and down into the coal face is a steep and painfull learning curve....it takes years to get experience to be able to get the money you will need to replace the job you currently do.

If you just want to do the weekend stuff and make a workshop out back where you can fiddle with various non paying projects, that'll be the fun part, but going into the workforce as a welder full time will bring tears to your eyes.....it's hard dirty work.
Ian.

[JD955SC]

I don't have any commitments like that, so it's much easier for me to change careers/go back to school/take an entry level position vs. waiting later in life. Plus my current job pays a pittance anyway so there essentially is no way to go but up. It's now or never to pull the ejection handles and get out of this dead end job.

Still wish I had gone into welding/machining instead of going to college. Fortunately I don't have a millstone of massive debt weighing me down, either, so I'm relatively free to make some major directional changes in life. Going to talk to some of the union people around here about an apprenticeship and going to talk to some local professional welders and companies about what's the best direction.

[Rick V]

Tig welding class was interesting tonight -CLASS #3.
More later... but my car broke down 7 minutes out of class - bang and grinding halt...front wheels pigeon toed! Tow-truck driver said - looks like a ball joint... but there was power steering fluid on the road.

Came home looking to tell a 'big story'...but was pre-empted by the fire truck, police car and tow truck (all lights flashing) pulling a car out of the side of my neighbour's house! Must of been 20 people looking on! Seems a car slammed into the side of the garage - knocking a brick pillar out of alignment and dropping about 50 bricks out of the wall! Quite a mess.

What a Night!
Tig Welding?... Class #3 description coming up later today....

[Rick V]

Here's some photo's of last night action - Car Hits Neighbour's House!

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And a last photo taken this morning of the damaged garage.

[Jon K]

^^ wow thats a shame

[Rick V]

Class #3: Oct 9 2012
One-on-One Demos of flat beads with filler rod and making a lap joint with filler rod

Class started at 7PM sharp.
The instructor brought out the tig torches and pedals from the store room and we students hooked them up to our respective welding machines.

Instructor came into my booth and demonstrated how to lay down a bead with filler. He was running with a set up of the pedal maxed out at 70 amps but welding the bead at 40 - 45 amps, 9.5 volts.

He held a very short arc, the tip of the tungsten just above the plate. Why? As he said, so the arc would not spread beyond a max of about 1/8 inch diameter. He said he was moving all the time... but I saw that he seemed to pause or even step back a little when to dabbed in the filler rod. He held the filler rod, not in front of the tungsten, but just off to the side... and swung it in as needed. Then he demonstrated making a lap joint.

So he left my booth and I made my first attempt at laying a bead with filler.

Where are the Air SicknessBags? Yep, pretty 'bad' eh?

Ok, so the rest of the night was spent trying to improve.
Here's a series of pictures of my progressive attempts at laying down a weld with filler - flat position.

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I was getting better... but still nowhere close to what the instructor layed down. Alas, at the end of the class, I was still not good enough to get signed off on the filler bead. Four of the students were about the same as me - not signed off. The other three were signed off on the filler bead and two on the lap joint. ??? Maybe they had prior experience?

I brought three reading glasses with me to try: 1.5, 2.0 and 2.5 diopter. I was working in close so I could see what was happening with the weld pool and tip of the tungsten. For me, the 2.0 diopter glasses worked best.


Materials Used:
- Five 3-foot long filler rods (1/16 inch diameter)
- 9 plates of cold rolled steel, each 4 x 1.5 x 1/16 inch
- About twice as mucn argon than last week. I calculated about 15 ft^3... my small tank price about $15, school cost about $4.

There it is...

[Rick V]

Ooops... a few more things.
I visited the tungsten grinder several times!
On one visit, I dropped my ~6 inch tunsten on the floor... broke in two pieces!
Lesson Learned: That stuff is brittle! Handle with care!

[zapster]

I think the instructor needs an instructor.

...zap!

[puddytat]

Aww gee Zap, that's just a test run....on top of the plate.....a run you won't normally make......just for a practice to get the tig/filler co-ordination right.

If the students could weld as good as the instructor's test piece in that photo, then they can only get better......get a life for f***k sake, and sweeten up a bit, being an arsehole all the time is boring.

Just for the record, why don't you post a photo of a test piece "you find acceptable", and let everyone have a breath of your rarified air....just to make it kosher, make the test beads on 1/16"plate, 2 of them 1/2" apart and 4 "long, just in case you have a few you did years ago when your hand was much steadier.....not saying your a bullsh!tter, but the guys would like to see how you are better than the instructor.

I don't suppose for one minute they give a sh!t whether or not you can do embroidary with a Tig, they (that is some) are after all learning just to get the arc stabilised and the filler to melt without blowing holes or making crow sh!t on barbed wire weld beads.
Ian.

[DSW]

I think the instructor needs an instructor.

...zap!

I agree. I'd be embarrassed to do demo beads like that for students.

Rick you might find the lay wire method helpful. Start your puddle and then bring it up to the wire. Keep a slight constant pressure on the wire so it stays in contact with the plate and move forward allowing the puddle to melt the wire. You can also keep the wire in contact with the plate and slide it into the puddle as needed as well. I find both these methods work best for newer tig students. You are trying to move your hands in two different motions and that isn't easy. Sort of like patting your belly and rubbing your head at the same time, except you are paying attention to other things as well like arc length and travel speed. Once a lot of the basics become second nature, then tapping or dipping is easier to pick up.

[Grandslam99]

Very informational and entertaining!!!

[Rick V]

I agree. I'd be embarrassed to do demo beads like that for students.

Instructor is a welding inspector - not an full-time welder.
My one-on-one demo was the first of the evening; maybe he got better later.
It's not like he was doing a demo in front of the entire class and was under pressure to produce an impecable bead.

Rick you might find the lay wire method helpful.... You can also keep the wire in contact with the plate and slide it into the puddle as needed as well... You are trying to move your hands in two different motions and that isn't easy....

Perhaps a good point... but later on I won't be welding that way so I'd rather face the music now. I'm making a concious effort not to rest my tig hand on the table - to keep my torch hand floating in the air with no support. Same with my other hand adding filler - free floating as best I can yet keeping the angle low to horizontal. It's more difficult but I figure that's the best way - master that and I'd be good to go. Only fixed part of me is my butt - ; we are allowed to tig weld sitting on a stool.

[DSW]

Perhaps a good point... but later on I won't be welding that way so I'd rather face the music now. I'm making a concious effort not to rest my tig hand on the table - to keep my torch hand floating in the air with no support. Same with my other hand adding filler - free floating as best I can yet keeping the angle low to horizontal. It's more difficult but I figure that's the best way - master that and I'd be good to go. Only fixed part of me is my butt - ; we are allowed to tig weld sitting on a stool.

Depends. You do what you need to do to do the job at hand. Some times one technique works better than others. Do what you will, I'm just suggesting what I've found helps most students pick up things the quickest and easiest.

As far as not resting your hand, a good welder uses whatever support he has available. Work smarter, not harder. Granted it's best to know how to do things free hand vs having to rely on a support, but I'd suggest you keep things simple at the level you are at right now. There are way too may variables to try to master all at once. Take as many out of the equation as possible and work on each one one at a time. Then start putting them together. You don't start juggling with 15 balls. You start with one, then two... and build up your skill set. At some point, once you have the basics, then you can quickly adapt to different things, but at the beginning it just makes it more complicated to learn.

How many times do you write and not rest your hand on the table? Yes you can write without support, but your writing will suffer because you are not as steady. Same applies to tig. Granted if you practice enough, you will get better. The point is take advantage of the class to work on learning the basics. Then you can always work on improving later.

If you look back at several of Zap's posts, you'll see he goes to the effort to set up a separate support many times to rest his hand on while welding. It simply makes it easier, especially if you are doing a lot of repetitive work.


I see a few very promising sections on your plates. The problem is that you can't stay consistent enough to go all the way across. I think if you stick with the basics and tackle one thing at a time, you'll move ahead faster.

[dubl_t]

Again, thanks for posting the details Rick. Even in that short time you made considerable improvement.

Have you ever welded with O/A?
I read from time to time the sequence in which weld methods are taught, and seems to me it would be best to start with O/A, then arc, then tig ending with mig. I feel that would teach manipulation of the puddle and tool the best.....maybe cuz that's how we did it

I know this is a tig course only, and I see you getting your money's worth.

[soutthpaw]

just a suggestion but u could take the pedal out of the equation too. just set a fixed amperage and go to town. does help with understanding travel speed effects on the weld.

[zapster]

Aww gee Zap, that's just a test run....on top of the plate.....a run you won't normally make......just for a practice to get the tig/filler co-ordination right.

If the students could weld as good as the instructor's test piece in that photo, then they can only get better......get a life for f***k sake, and sweeten up a bit, being an arsehole all the time is boring.

Just for the record, why don't you post a photo of a test piece "you find acceptable", and let everyone have a breath of your rarified air....just to make it kosher, make the test beads on 1/16"plate, 2 of them 1/2" apart and 4 "long, just in case you have a few you did years ago when your hand was much steadier.....not saying your a bullsh!tter, but the guys would like to see how you are better than the instructor.

I don't suppose for one minute they give a sh!t whether or not you can do embroidary with a Tig, they (that is some) are after all learning just to get the arc stabilised and the filler to melt without blowing holes or making crow sh!t on barbed wire weld beads.
Ian.

After reading all this..
I really have nothing to prove to anyone anymore.
I call'em like I see'em and you see the same thing I do.

Here.
Here is a little bit of everything you asked for in one project..
http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...ghlight=intake



The "Instructor" should BLOW THEM AWAY and frankly I just 'aint seeing it.
I have had people leave here after a few hrs with WAY better results than that..

I am NOT God..
Never claimed to be..

But that display is just NOT GOOD.



The instructor needs an instructor.


...zap!

[dstevens]

I agree. I'd be embarrassed to do demo beads like that for students.

Rick you might find the lay wire method helpful.

[snip]

The instructor beads look more like mine. And I'm not fully pleased yet with my tig skills. The guy we had was a certified welder in a few processes, turned inspector, turned teacher though he still did contract work on the side. Stack of dimes, every time, any material we used.

We were told about lay wire, but not encouraged to use it on steel because we were told it wouldn't work well with AL. At first we ran no filler beads until we got the go ahead to use filler. I struggled for a bit but all at once got my head around it. I still don't get as much hood time with the tig as I'd like and don't do any outside projects that require it.

[Rick V]

Have you ever welded with O/A?... seems to me it would be best to start with O/A, then arc, then tig ending with mig. I feel that would teach manipulation of the puddle and tool the best.....maybe cuz that's how we did it ... I know this is a tig course only, and I see you getting your money's worth.

Yes, I started with O/A class, then Arc-1; those were prerequisite courses to taking tig.
About getting my money's worth - the jury is still out on that; so far I have not seen materials costs justifying the $695 cost of the course.
We will see; by the end of the course I should know the cost/benefit ratio!
The alternative was to invest in a cylinder of argon and have a go myself - looking to tig video's on how to do it. It would be different if there were some friend close by to demo and correct me as I go.

just a suggestion but u could take the pedal out of the equation too. just set a fixed amperage and go to town. does help with understanding travel speed effects on the weld.

I've pretty weld done that DJ; just max the pedal to start then I back off and hold a fixed foot position to weld.

The instructor beads look more like mine. And I'm not fully pleased yet with my tig skills.

Could be that my instructor is not a' Tig Master'... still Confusus say, 'In the land of the blind, man with one eye is Master.'
Point being that in my introductory class, the instructor beads are better than the rest of us can do. As you say, it's all about hood time.

[dubl_t]

About getting my money's worth - the jury is still out on that; so far I have not seen materials costs justifying the $695 cost of the course.
We will see; by the end of the course I should know the cost/benefit ratio!

Well, I hope you're not getting a jaded attitude towards your learning experience. If you think you're getting screwed it's not going to help focusing at the welding table.

I apologize for not knowing much about Canada, but in the States that fee would be a tax deduction. Rental fees for the Invertec and accessories would easily be over $500/week. Being able to designate a couple solid hours/week to welding, brought on by your investment, commendable.

If this is the case, stop looking at things in absolute values, appreciate what you have and the experiences you gain.

Your instructor may not be a highly experienced tig weldor, but at least you have someone that knows more than you, showing you how. Along with that, something can be learned from anyone, regardless of their experience.

Last time in Vegas my wife lost $3800 at the tables. 1/2 that was our house payment that she was supposed to deposit. All's I could do is laugh, and appreciate the experience. It's only money, and it's just a tool.

[Rick V]

Class #4: October 16, 2012 - Flat beads with filler rod and a lap joints with filler rod

Class started at 7PM sharp. The instructor brought out the tig torches and pedals from the store room and we students hooked them up to our respective welding machines.

I started in where I left off last week, making flat beads with filler rod. After about an hour of this the instructor looked and, examined my work and said good enough - start working on lap joints. Here's what I did... somewhere in there must have been a bead he liked.

Ok, I went onto making laps joints with filler rod. After about an hour of this the instructor looked and, examined my work and said good enough - start working on T-joints. Here's what I did... again somewhere in there must have been a lap joint he liked.

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The instructor then demonstrated making a fillet weld (T-joint). He changed the tungsten stick out from about 1/8 inch to 1/4 inch - to get into the corner. I was impressed at how tight an arc he could hold. I'm not there yet! Yipee I finally was working on a joint I use! Whoa... humbling experience! I had only time for two tries before the class ended and it seemed I like to lay the filler on the horizontal plate - not so much the vertical!
FOLKS THERE IS NO WHERE TO GO FROM HERE BUT TO GET BETTER!


Materials Used:
- Eight 3-foot long filler rods (1/16 inch diameter)
- 17 plates of cold rolled steel, each 4 x 1.5 x 1/16 inch
- About twice as much argon as Class #3. I raised the flow rate to 20 ft^3 per hour.
I timed my ten flat filler beads at about 4 minutes each = 40 minutes on gas time.
The ten lap-joint welds were faster, maybe 3 minutes each = 30 minutes.
The two T-joint fillet welds were about 5 minutes each = 10 minutes.
Total welding time = ~ 80 minutes, so say 1.5 hours @ 20 ft^3 per hour = 30 ft^3... my small tank price about $30, school cost about $8.

In my view, the instructor was like a mother hen shoeing her chicks along to the next challenge as soon as they were 'reasonably' able. I'm performing middle of the class. There are about 3 guys turning out better results - saw some nice fillet welds; I'm not there yet!

Anyway, this is all great fun... I'm impressed with the precision of tig.

[soutthpaw]

Rick, I just went out to the garage and ran these 4 beads on a coupon. Zero pre cleaning. 115 amps max w/ pedal 1/8 steel, the 2 wider beads are 1/8 stainless rod and the smaller beads are 1/16 mild steel. 3/32 red tungsten. I already mentioned I suck at steel tig. I can do better on aluminum but You should not be attempting a joint till u can at least make a bead on flat plate that looks somewhat consistant like this. That took less than 5 mins to run 4x 3" bead. And I accidently hit submit on my mobile so I cannot add the pic. Will do it in a reply

[soutthpaw]

Here is the sample I just did