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Thread: Lincoln Idealarc Tig 300/300 - No Joy

  1. #51
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    Re: Lincoln Idealarc Tig 300/300 - No Joy

    Quote Originally Posted by burnt_fingers View Post
    I agree completely with how you mapped the jumper behavior, however the diodes that get bypassed with that jumper are not on the diode/scr board.
    ccawgc called it a few posts back, those are power supply diodes that get bypassed.
    The conclusion of the power supply diodes getting bypassed also match my scope readings where the waveform changes from fullwave dc without the jumper to halfwave dc measured at #10 when I add the jumper.
    with that in mind and looking at the "jumper on" circuit map you created, it would seem to indicate something in area of the pc board outside the jumpered area to the right is bad and breaking the circuit.

    I've checked the rectifier bridge diodes and I have 115ac into the bridge measured at #4 and #1 and 115dc out of the rectifier measured @ #23(+) and the 5k resistor(-)


    What was confusing me is the schematic leads you to believe those power supply rectifier diodes are on the diode/scr board because its shown outside the dotted lines that designate the control board, It was a while into this before I realized that the 4 diode full wave rectifier bridge is on the top left of the printed circuit control board and also took a while for me to realize my diode/scr board doesn't match L5268.
    I did a head count on all the diodes and although Im close now, it still doesn't add up with the schematics, so clearly they were in development and the schematics didn't keep up with the changes.
    That also holds true with the 2 boards I have, the early board is L5269B, sort of follows the L5268 scheme pretty close, but the L5271 board does not follow it and Lincoln doesn't seem to have a revision for this updated board.

    my diode/scr board matches L5429T I got from AWPMAN exactly.
    there are 2 floating diodes and a third diode between the pos/neg leads to the control coils as well as the 2 large scr. this differs from L5268 where that scheme shows only one floating diode and the 2 large scr.
    I feel pretty confidant the diode/scr board is working as designed.
    Attachment 627281
    I understand that 5268 is confusing when you first look at it. But it's drawn in such a way as to help with understanding how the circuit works not how it's positioned in the welder. In fact both 5268 and 5429 are wired exactly the same way just drawn differently.


    Here I've tried to color code and label it so you can see how they match.


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    Now since your bypass is feeding the output of your control voltage straight into the ground between the diode I labeled 2 and wire 1 / pin 6 you're essentially bypassing diode 2. Normally that control voltage comes in at the + sign at the top of the bridge. In essence the bridge rectifier circuit is split between the control board and the diode/scr board.

    This is why I'm saying I think it's in the diode/scr board. More to the point diode 2 and likely diode 1 as well would be high on my list of suspects at this point.
    Last edited by irish fixit; 02-21-2014 at 09:26 PM.
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  2. #52
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    Re: Lincoln Idealarc Tig 300/300 - No Joy

    ok wayne, now you're taking off the gloves.
    excellent info and extremely well thought out, I follow your illustration on both complete schematics and agree 100% with the mapping.
    Your description explains what I'm looking at precisely, it aint what it looks like on the welder.

    It seems they used 3 large diodes on the diode/scr board and 2 much smaller diodes on the control board to make up the rectifier circuit and then cloud the water more by splitting it between the 2 boards.
    I'll think in these new terms now as I work through the issues.

    The diode/scr board was taken completely apart and tested each component 3 times already but must be I didn't use enough voltage/current to witness the failure.
    Not ready to get my hopes up that this is all of the problems, but considering neither pc board I have work properly a bad diode/scr board would explain it.
    Thanks for digging in your heels Wayne, I'll double check the wiring and source out replacements for all 3 large diodes no matter how they test and then see where it goes from there.
    Doug

  3. #53
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    Re: Lincoln Idealarc Tig 300/300

    here's an update where I'm at with the 74 Lincoln,
    I want to thank everyone for their help & suggestions up to this point, I'm thick as a brick but, persistence will usually get you to the finish line.

    In one respect, mission accomplished, I simply wanted to learn some more about electronics and trying to fix this welder seemed like a good way to do it.
    As far as the problems, it's narrowed down to both control boards I have need repair.
    Very likely they were bad at the get go but also every connection inside was crusty, corroded and needed attention anyhow so going through it all has helped.

    A generous weldingweb repair guru who wishes to remain anonymous sent me several pages of Lincoln service releases from the 1960's to the late 1970's regarding this unit.
    In the material was another control board schematic I hadn't seen that matches the L5271 control board perfectly.

    The technical bulletins include precise flow chart type procedures for testing every part of the Idealarc solid state 300/300.
    With this new information I've verified working the diode/scr board, saturable reactor, control coil, pilot relay, switches and the current control rheostat as well as expected voltages at check points and short circuit amperage readings.
    there is also a procedure to adjust the 2 trim pots on the control boards using a jumper across the electrode/work terminals with a clamp meter on the shorting jumper, then R16 is adjusted for max rheostat current reading the amperage on the clamp and R17 for minimum amperage.

    With this procedure I came to the conclusion my L5271 board does actually work somewhat and I can use the welder as is but is no where near full potential and my original L5269 board has major trouble when connected in this manor loading the reactor (short) immediately so that board has more serious issues.

    The control system (diode/scr board,pc board and rheostat) uses rectified DC to energize the control coils and the rheostat varies the DC voltage giving you fine current control.

    With all the help & suggestions of the members here the fog I was in has been lifted, my plan now is to replace every part on the old board shotgun style and see if I can continue to dissect and understand all of the control board functions and then if I still cant get a fully working board, I'll send one out.

    Sincere thanks to all for your assistance and willingness to share your experience, I'll post back as I finish up the repairs and get the machine painted in the weeks to follow.
    Have a great weekend- THINK SPRING!!!
    Doug

  4. #54
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    Re: Lincoln Idealarc Tig 300/300 - No Joy

    When a modern solid-state controlled welder gives only maximum output it is usually a sign of loss of voltage/amperage feedback. I don't have the time right now to check the schematics for that machine, but most get voltage feedback from connections to the output terminals or the rectifier. Look for broken wires, corrosion, or loose connections. Current feedback on newer machines is performed by a Hall device, more commonly called a LEM. Older units use a shunt, which rarely fail. When these feedback circuits fail the unit thinks it is putting out nothing, so it goes full tilt trying to see output. If you can supply the code # for your unit I will try to look into it. If the schematic pasted to the inside cover is intact, it would show the circuits there so you could trace them. Most Hall devices have a positive voltage input, a negative voltage input, a feedback output, and a ground. Common input voltages would be +15vdc and -15vdc. The feed back is usually in millivolts DC with a millivolt value translating into an amperage value on the control board. These feedback values vary from unit to unit and are available from tech support.

  5. #55
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    Re: Lincoln Idealarc Tig 300/300 - Welding excellent!!

    She's all together, 100% operational !!! Many thanks to all for the help.
    a little warm weather to complete the sheet metal and paint and I'll be able to wrap it up .

    Sourced out each individual part to replace every component on the diode/scr board and the pc control board.
    installed the rebuilt boards and adjusted the trimmers as outlined in the service procedure: R16 (panel on minimum)set to 11amps / R17 rheostat on maximum set to 110 amps.
    measured with the range set to low, polarity AC and a clamp meter on a shorting cable across the output terminals.
    had to go back and forth between the trimmers a few times, but after a few times they evened out.
    Machine welds excellent in all the ranges AC/DC - tig/stick and the current control is very smooth now with a lot more range.

    I can put together a complete parts list if anyone is interested, as well as posting the test/ adjustment procedure pdf files.

    The diode/SCR board is schematic M12654, the diodes I used are NTE5994- 40amp- 600volts and the SCR is NTE5545 - 35amp 400volts


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  7. #56
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    Re: Lincoln Idealarc Tig 300/300 - No Joy

    Great. Glad you finally got it working.

    One thing you might thing about is getting some conformal coating to put on the board. It would help prevent shorts if metal dust gets on it.
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  8. #57
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    Re: Lincoln Idealarc Tig 300/300 - No Joy

    Burnt fingers,
    Thats great !! I have found this fourm to be very helpful on these projects. I have a Miller MM250 mig and was able to build the optional board to run my spoolmatic 30a saved 300 dollars and had some fun making it. The wiring diagrams were clear and a fellow member gave me a few tips.
    The AWPman
    Last edited by AWPMAN; 03-13-2014 at 07:02 PM.

  9. #58
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    Re: Lincoln Idealarc Tig 300/300 - No Joy

    Excellent work! You deserve an award for persistence.
    Do you have a complete parts list. Is it safe to assume that at some point your board was working ok after replacing the failed components and it just needed the trimmer adjustments?
    Thanks.

  10. #59
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    Re: Lincoln Idealarc Tig 300/300 - No Joy

    Good tip for sure Wayne and thanks again for all your help, will definitely seal it up when I get the sheet metal done later this spring.
    Lincoln also recommends humiseal on the big diodes and SCR
    AWPMAN, the info you sent me on your transistors & photos of the board in your machine were very helpful to compare, thanks for taking the time to help me out.


    Quote Originally Posted by tprothma View Post
    Excellent work! You deserve an award for persistence.
    Do you have a complete parts list. Is it safe to assume that at some point your board was working ok after replacing the failed components and it just needed the trimmer adjustments?
    Thanks.
    I'm a glutton for punishment but have to admit, I put the covers back on and rolled it back out of sight more than once after I'd got nowhere with it.
    Irish & ccawgc pulled me back on the right track, without their input I'd still be trying to figure it out.

    I never found a bad part, everything tested good, but obviously something wasn't right so my testing method was flawed & couldn't duplicate the failure, I removed every single part to isolate and finally decided after no success identifying anything bad, considering how old the parts are to just go ahead and replace everything and see if the shotgun approach will work and that did it.

    will put together a full parts list when I can, all the resistors, caps, diodes I ordered from Mouser, the big diodes, transistors and scr I found on ebay.

    as far as the trimmer adjustment goes, I'd say its absolutely necessary if you've changed control board parts to be sure you're getting the proper output (enough output) and then not too much as to avoid overdriving the SCR's.
    The trim pot settings are worth doing even if your machine seems to be working fine, individual components change value over time, 40 years is a long time so its an easy procedure to make sure the output is still up to snuff.

    Many thanks fellas! Doug

  11. #60
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    Re: Lincoln Idealarc Tig 300/300 - No Joy

    Burnt Fingers (aka Doug),
    Trevor (the guy who helped you earlier with the board part numbers and post-it notes) and I would definitely appreciate you posting the parts list and the tuning procedure.

    Also please confirm that this machine needs a K772 foot pedal which is a 10k ohm pot. I think he's using a low resistance rheostat/slider style foot pedal based on what he described to me verbally- when he and I talked the pedal/machine was not nearby so I could verify. I think it's why he's had problems with a first and second board on his machine. I'm trying to rebuild one board and he's trying to rebuild the second.

    Is it possible that someone did the same thing on your machine and tried to hook up the wrong pedal?

    Thanks,
    Tim

  12. #61
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    Re: Lincoln Idealarc Tig 300/300 - No Joy

    Tim,
    sorry for the delay, I don't rx emails when there's a new post here for some reason.
    Later this afternoon, I'll put some info together on the parts, I have it all on my laptop at the shop, I flipped Trevor all the procedures on pdf via email, perhaps he overlooked them.

    K772 is the right pedal according to the manual, that pedal and the panel rheostat as well as my original hand amptrol are all 0-10K and the pots can be wired wrong making the current raise/lower opposite.
    What I think happened with my machine, and this is pure speculation is the hand amptrol (which is all they used, no pedal) twisted up, shorting all to ground, that damaged the diode/scr board and the pc board. neither of the previous 2 owners that I know of got it working and it may have been the reason the original owner got rid of it.

    I couldn't find the right pot to repair my hand amptrol yet, its tiny so a normal pot wont fit the space.

    Here's the pedal I found and it works great, 0-10k, nice smooth microswitch, and fine control throughout the range, the panel rheostat setting determines the max the pedal can dish out when set to remote.

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    Doug

  13. #62
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    Re: Lincoln Idealarc Tig 300/300 - Parts

    Here's a list with links below to get you started rebuilding L5269 pc board & M12654 SCR Diode stack.
    the manual, troubleshooting & schematics are here: http://1drv.ms/1kPG2BY

    resistors & caps - mouser.com, the quantities listed are more than you'll need, I wanted to have a few spares of each.
    http://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager...sID=6d3d1ed848

    you need 2 - 27 ohm 1/2w resistors for the diode/scr board i grabbed them here because I forgot to get them at mouser
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/400326248247

    300amp clamp meter so you can follow the procedure to adjust the trimmers.
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/221383498866

    10K pot- front panel curent control rheostat
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/141174245766

    NTE5994 diodes for the diode/scr board
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/201042036856

    NTE5545 SCR for the diode/scr board
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/191002375053

    2n525 transistor
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/370525660454

    2N4062 transistor
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/221358189793

    2n2646 transistor
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/171232577633

    2N3390 transistor
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/370632437486

    MCR107 scr
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/370933275904

    Kemet Axial Tantalum Capacitor 1uF 35V T310
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/110831674812

  14. #63
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    Re: Lincoln Idealarc Tig 300/300 - No Joy

    Quote Originally Posted by tprothma View Post
    I think it's why he's had problems with a first and second board on his machine.
    I wouldn't mess with the pedal at all until you get the machine stick welding in all ranges and verify the rheostat on the panel is responding with a broad range of fine current control in each of the ranges first.

    grab the pdf troubleshooting files at the link I posted above, there's a flow style chart that outlines how & what to test and what the results should be.

    Check the pc board plug at the harness side,
    looking for 0-10k across #5 & #10.
    6.3vac across #63 & #64
    115vac across #1 & #4

    Good luck!
    Doug

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    Re: Lincoln Idealarc Tig 300/300 - No Joy

    Doug,
    First of all thanks a bunch!

    Did you use the Vishay diodes (Mouser description- Rectifiers Vr/400V Io/1A Glass Passivated) for all 13 of the diodes on the board?

    My board has slightly different resistors, where you have 15ohm resitors, mine are 27 ohm and where you have 47ohm, I have 10 ohm. Also my board has no varistor.

    I'm ordering some parts now and will keep you posted.

    Thanks again,
    Tim

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  16. #65
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    Re: Lincoln Idealarc Tig 300/300 - No Joy

    I got the sense Lincoln revised this board 3-4 times, your board also has an extra diode below the 2N4062 transistor at the center left side.
    They changed the resistor values for the KAG of the 2 scr MCR107-3 - on the earlier scheme they used 10-10-27 on the newer boards it was 10-15-47.

    I ended up rebuilding the older 5269 board instead of the newer 5271 board, I'll have to check some photos I have on my shop computer to know exactly which resistor values I used.
    There are 2 different diodes used from what I could tell, the majority are 1N4004 general purpose rectifiers - mouser part
    the other few diodes, I couldn't get a good number off, so ended up not changing them.
    the varistor isn't on either of the 2 schematics, they must have decided to add that in at some point, I could check my photos and show you exactly where to drill into the traces to add it.
    good luck with the rebuild, now that its warming up, Im getting ready to finish the paint on mine.

  17. #66
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    Re: Lincoln Idealarc Tig 300/300 - No Joy

    Doug,
    I found the part number for the diodes- all of the black diodes on my board (4 places on my board and 3 places on yours) are zener diodes 1N4747.
    I will assume that the white ones on my board (9 places) are the 1N4004.
    The colors in the picture you posted above suggest you used 15, 47 ohm resistors.
    Tim

  18. #67
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    Re: Lincoln Idealarc Tig 300/300 - Welding excellent!!

    Yeah would it be possible to get the part number and everything for check in the diode board because I sent my resistors off the tile board and and they were lost in shipping

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    Re: Lincoln Idealarc Tig 300/300 - No Joy

    Hi, new to the site, looks like great info/work. Just picked up a Tig-300 for a song, it's supposedly has the same issue as described as above. Was wondering is someone could email me the schematics for the L-5271 board and rectifier/SCR assembly behind it, am going to tear into it this weekend (after testing).
    This is the machine I learned to tig weld on in the mid-80's and loved it, also have a 5 pin thumb-trol for it that I still use on my lincoln high freq unit added to my ac/dc tombstone.
    The machine came out of a tech school (so I was told) and is in good shape, doesn't look like anyone made any internal repairs just 43 years of dust. Powered it up and it makes good ac and dc (no load), will load/weld test it as described above.
    Thanks in advance

  20. #69
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    Re: Lincoln Idealarc Tig 300/300 - No Joy

    hi BURNT!
    I have a problem similar to yours, would you be so kind to uncover the complete wiring diagram, to check my machine?

  21. #70
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    Re: Lincoln Idealarc Tig 300/300 - No Joy

    Quote Originally Posted by mrartou View Post
    Hi, new to the site, looks like great info/work. Just picked up a Tig-300 for a song, it's supposedly has the same issue as described as above. Was wondering is someone could email me the schematics for the L-5271 board and rectifier/SCR assembly behind it, am going to tear into it this weekend (after testing).
    This is the machine I learned to tig weld on in the mid-80's and loved it, also have a 5 pin thumb-trol for it that I still use on my lincoln high freq unit added to my ac/dc tombstone.
    The machine came out of a tech school (so I was told) and is in good shape, doesn't look like anyone made any internal repairs just 43 years of dust. Powered it up and it makes good ac and dc (no load), will load/weld test it as described above.
    Thanks in advance
    Email Lincolns tech support for the schematics you need.
    they were very helpful and prompt in sending diagrams to me when I needed them.
    1962 Idealarc Tig 300 300
    1974 Idealarc Tig 300 300 ( till owner needs it back)
    1988 Power Mig 150 (.112 f cap mod)
    2015 Lotos Ltpdc2000d plasma/arc/tig
    Victor 100 torch, 200- 210 Oxy/Acet gauges

  22. #71
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    Re: Lincoln Idealarc Tig 300/300 - No Joy

    I just picked up a idealarc 300 tig, code 8060-c. Can someone send me the troubleshooting documents and any other documents you have on the idealarc 300 tig. I contacted Lincoln and they said they only send them to authorized service facilities. I already have the owners manual and parts list off of Lincoln's site. Thank you.

  23. #72
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    Re: Lincoln Idealarc Tig 300/300 - No Joy

    Quote Originally Posted by burnt_fingers View Post
    Hi Charlie,
    The short answer is no progress.
    After all the dis-assembly,re-assembly and part replacements, still have the exact same problem, welds only on high with no control.

    New parts for the control board arrived, transistors, inductors, resistors, put one of my control boards back together after isolating/checking every individual part, verifying the circuits and replacing parts I didn't believe were any good with exact replacements, cleaned up all the grounds and made sure the chassis parts are all bonded properly to each other & ground.
    Got the new current control rheostat wired in on the panel and measured that circuit with the molex unplugged between pin #5 & #10 at the connector.
    1-10 dial scale reads 10kΩ at 1 and lowers smoothly to 2Ω when you turn it up to 10.
    Put it all back together and it's no different than before.

    The machine will operate perfectly if I run a jumper from #10 at the panel remote switch to the ground side of the ac receptacle.
    With the jumper on, she welds fine tig & stick, ac/dc in all the ranges with current control working both at the panel & the foot pedal.
    High freq is working great as are the solenoids, soft start and switching between tig & stick - all seems to be right where it should be.

    welded AC tig aluminum 120amps for a 2-3 hours continuously this week with the temporary jumper in place, nothing smoked or got warm, It did throw my 50 amp breaker during some long hot welds, but I reset it, gave it a few min break and went right back to welding and it didn't trip again.

    I'm definitely open to suggestions, nothing I've done so far changed the original problem.
    I'm tempted to send a board out, pay the $125 to "repair" wait a few weeks to get it and see if it makes a difference, but my gut feeling tells me it wont change.

    Made a little progress on the machine in another way, bought a used procon pump and mounted it, the cart is the reservoir and will hold 40 gallons, right now I have 25 gallons of used red auto coolant in it and the pump is regulated to 50psi, I put serviceable fine mesh stainless screens on the input & output of the pump.
    The few hours of welding I've done with it this week the torch is very cool to the touch and gets cold moments after you stop welding but its been cold outdoors and the coolant is probably 35-40 degrees right now, summertime temps will be a better test for that.

    here's a few photos of the off topic cooler, I think its a Bernard cart?

    Attachment 620291

    Attachment 620241

    Attachment 620251

    Attachment 620311
    Do you know why the welder we have when running in TIG mode only with pedal after a minute or so it blows transistor Q3 2n3906 every time?
    Stick weld it is always OK.
    Caesar

  24. #73
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    Re: Lincoln Idealarc Tig 300/300 - No Joy

    Do you know why the welder we have when running in TIG mode only with pedal after a minute or so it blows transistor Q3 2n3906 every time?
    Stick weld it is always OK.
    Caesar

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    Re: Lincoln Idealarc Tig 300/300 - No Joy

    circuit board
    Name:  Tig Lincoln300_300.jpg
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    Last edited by Caesar; 03-22-2019 at 10:38 AM.

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    Re: Lincoln Idealarc Tig 300/300 - No Joy

    circuit board
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    Last edited by Caesar; 03-22-2019 at 10:38 AM.

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