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Thread: Muriatic Acid

  1. #26
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    Re: Muriatic Acid

    I hate to tell you this, William, but out here in the oilfield we separate oil from water all the time. They are normally produced together. Bottom hole temperatures can easily reach 200°, where both fluids are found together--naturally.

    Salem, try taking it to a place that sells propane/butane.
    America Needs AMERICA'S Oil!!!

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  2. #27
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    Re: Muriatic Acid

    Yeah, I am going to try both the propane place and the local welding place.

  3. #28
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    Re: Muriatic Acid

    If you're the slightest bit worried about the tank...........buy a new one!

    Even if you neutralize the rust, it's eaten away at the inside already. Just how much of the wall thickness is left???????? Ask yourself that question

    New tank might be half the price of your medical insurance premium.

    Don't mix your priorities. Most folks go out and spend more money on DVD's than they spend on their safety. Little purchases add up in a heartbeat, while the big ones make you go Same amount of money either way.

    It might pressure test just great tomorrow, but how many cycles will it withstand?? Static testing is static testing, no consideration for duty cycles.
    "Any day above ground is a good day"

    http://www.farmersamm.com/

  4. #29
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    Re: Muriatic Acid

    Do compressor tanks with heavy rust in one spot split with sudden rapture-like explosion?
    Or does a rust-weakened tank expand and contract with each compressor cycle, and then, as soon as the weakest rusted area can be breached, air bleeds out signaling the end. Anybody know of a rust-weakened tank that exploded from normal working pressure?

    By the time the splitting void in a failing small reservoir could reach an inch in size, the building-blowing energy potential would be depleted. And we all know that blowing a 1" air hose may be a noisy whipping nuisance, but it's not going to blow the building down.

    I could see in a situation where if somehow the control switch, high limit switch, and high pressure relief valve all failed, and the compressor had the capacity to reach the tanks burst pressure the tank could catastrophically split; but that would be very unlikely scenario.

    With trucks, it's somewhat common for older or neglected air reservoirs to rust out, but I've never heard of one "spliting." One day the air pops through the weakest point and begins to leak out; usually it's a slow leak and next trip to the shop the leak is noticed and the tank is replaced.

    I wonder if a testing facility would even have any standard test data for acceptable expansion of any given air compressor tank? They're each built so different, with welded brackets, mounts, feet etc that it would probably have to be a very expensive custom tailored test. Probably at a cost exceeding the tank's value.

    What about starting with a basic visual inspection for heavy pitting? Maybe with a camera if we want to get fussy. If the tanks shows heavy pitting it's replaced.


    Good Luck

  5. #30
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    Re: Muriatic Acid

    "Forbidden

    You don't have permission to access /editpost.php on this server.

    Additionally, a 403 Forbidden error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request."

    WHAT?!?

  6. #31
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    Re: Muriatic Acid

    denrep
    Re: Muriatic Acid
    "Forbidden

    You don't have permission to access /editpost.php on this server.

    Additionally, a 403 Forbidden error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request."

    WHAT?!?
    Hey, Denrep;
    you should have posted a Screenshot, so I'd see what interesting stuff you're talking about!

    .

  7. #32
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    Re: Muriatic Acid

    denrep says, "
    With trucks, it's somewhat common for older or neglected air reservoirs to rust out, but I've never heard of one "spliting."

    denrep, google "air tank explosions."

    You are giving very dangerous advice.

    awright

  8. #33
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    Re: Muriatic Acid

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldiron2 View Post
    Hey, Denrep;
    you should have posted a Screenshot, so I'd see what interesting stuff you're talking about!
    OldIron2 - I couldn't post didley.
    All I wanted to do was tidy-up my post a little, but I would get that error message when submitting my edited text.


    Quote Originally Posted by awright View Post
    denrep says, "
    With trucks, it's somewhat common for older or neglected air reservoirs to rust out, but I've never heard of one "spliting."

    denrep, google "air tank explosions."

    You are giving very dangerous advice.

    awright
    Awright - I'm not saying that exploding pressure vessels aren't dangerous. But I am saying that I have never heard of an air tank splitting with building-wrecking force, due to a slowly eroding bottom. Boiler explosions, hydrocarbon explosions, and explosions due to failed or disabled safety devices are another story. A brand new tank wouldn't change the results of such over-pressures.

    A Google search for "air tank explosion" returned 346,000 results. I scanned over the first 9 pages, found nothing to support the existence of tank-splitting, building wrecking explosions, caused by the rust-weakened air tanks of shop compressors.

    The Google search did turn up several opinions which parallel mine.
    Such as those at:
    http://forum.doityourself.com/tools-...ty-danger.html

    19joey58 ". . .the web has several stories of EXPLODING air tanks and rust is often the culprit, many sites state that most people do not take proper care in draining their tanks and therefore there are several air "bombs" just waiting to detonate because of the rusty thin walls of the tanks. i called local air compressor builders here in toronto and they said ALL air compressor tanks are rusty inside because of the condenstaion. they also said they have never heard of a tank blowing up and what usually happens is the rust deteriorates resulting in small pin hole leaks in which the tank is deemed unworthy and is the replaced. they also explained that air tanks are usually good for about 30 years

    if all air tanks are rusty and rusty tanks are "bombs"...we have a global crisis on our hands!!!. most tanks are not new, and new ones will soon be all rusty because it is normal for then to rust, and further, they will rust rather quickly since MOST people do not drain properly. . . ."


    majakdragon ". . .I have worked around air compressors for many years and have never even heard of one exploding due to rust out. I have seen poorly maintained tanks develop pinholes and leak but thats all. One thing you might want to try is tapping the tank with a hammer and see if you can "hear" any drastic change in the sound,indicating a thinner area of the tank.Theres no way of stopping the moisture in a tank but draining keeps the moisture out of your tools. . . . "

    Anyone know of a report which details the explosion of a shop compressor's air tank which was operating at normal pressure, and then split with building-wrecking force, due to a slowly eroding bottom? Maybe you could post a link?

    Good Luck
    Last edited by denrep; 01-17-2010 at 10:48 AM.

  9. #34
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    Re: Muriatic Acid

    I know of a CO2 tank which had been used with beverage dispensers and had apparently gotten soda water into it at some point. It was pressurized with a fair amount of the gas when a bowling alley closed; a person took it home and had it sitting around for some years, and one day, while it was still sitting in the same place, it suddenly began leaking near the bottom where a ring had rusted on the inside. I grant you that these tanks are heavier built, but the principle is similar. I also allow that is isn't impossible for an explosive rupture to happen under similar conditions, but I'd bet it's more rare than some people here think.

  10. #35
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    Re: Muriatic Acid

    Quote Originally Posted by steve45 View Post
    I hate to tell you this, William, but out here in the oilfield we separate oil from water all the time. They are normally produced together. Bottom hole temperatures can easily reach 200°, where both fluids are found together--naturally.

    Salem, try taking it to a place that sells propane/butane.
    I am sure you can have oil and water together without mishap. However at a certain point, a certain temperature, they become explosive.

    Sincerely,


    William McCormick

  11. #36
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    Re: Muriatic Acid

    Alright, So I filled the tank with water (didn't use the acid or otherwise clean the inside) hooked up the hand pump enerpac and it got to about 50 pounds when there was a quiet pop, I thought maybe one of my fittings was loose and found some water dripping from the underside but wasn't sure if it was just dripping down the tank. a few more pumps and checked again and there was a little pisser coning out the bottom.

    So, lessons learned: The method I used is simple and easy and not at all dangerous as the water and oil is non-compressible.

    I found out we recently did one in our shop for a job in New Brunswick and they used an industrial Karcher power washer. Just get the right fittings together and pump it up to the test pressure with the wand trigger. They were a bit nervous that I would get water in the enerpac but I assured them that I would bleed the pressure from the tank with a valve to avoid sucking water into the pump.

    Now to find a decently priced new receiver!

  12. #37
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    Re: Muriatic Acid

    Good work!

    Always the Pollyanna, I now criticize the idea of using a pressure washer to perform a pressure test on a tank using the wand trigger to control pressure. Unless there is air trapped in the tank to provide a "cushion" for the volume of water entering the tank (the more air the more dangerous the test due to energy storage in the compressed air) it would be easy to overpressure the tank causing visible or hidden damage. Rather than depending upon the finesse of the wand operator, using a pressure regulator on the outlet of the pump and using a safety valve set at a little above the target test pressure would make a safe test setup using a pressure washer.

    awright.

  13. #38
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    Re: Muriatic Acid

    Wow, a burst at 50lbs...
    That tank must have been very weak.
    How ‘bout giving it a hammer thump in the failed area?
    I'll bet you'll find that the defect would have been very easy to catch with a hammer test.

    So does the Enerpac have 10,000 psi potential, yet will accurately read 50 psi on the gauge?

    Pictures?

    Good Luck

  14. #39
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    Re: Muriatic Acid

    The weak spot was on the bottom. I had tapped around the main part but not the bottom.The Enerpac I used was a hand one, I have found that you can get pretty accurate with them It is probably good up to about 10,000 psi but the stroke is pretty light so you can add in SMALL increments, as long as you aren't just wailing away on it.

    I have heard of the pressure washer testing from several professionals in the field. Sure the control may be a little gross but testing it that way is better than the uncountable receivers sitting in the back of shops just waiting to fail.

  15. #40
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    Re: Muriatic Acid

    I know metal pretty well from many years of welding it. I have seen so many stress fractures in red hot metal on old, thought to be in good shape parts. That I cannot even count the times I have spotted them.

    So a compressor tank that has been expanding and contracting for a very long time, has got to be subject to some stress facture. Some chlorine stress fracture.

    Also consider that a brand new tank may only be rated to run at temperatures within a certain range. And the use of an old or rusted compressor tank really seems unwise. I don't know if any of you guys ever work in real cold conditions. I do sometimes. And I have seen steel crack like glass, when it is subjected to hammering while near or just below zero degrees.

    So if you are taking this old tank out to a garage, or barn where it might see zero or below, and you crank it up, you are definitely gambling as far as I am concerned. I would ask an expert. And be sure to ask him if the ambient temperature means anything. Or if there is a minimum operating temperature.


    Sincerely,


    William McCormick

  16. #41
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    Re: Muriatic Acid

    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick Jr View Post
    I am sure you can have oil and water together without mishap. However at a certain point, a certain temperature, they become explosive.

    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    That 'certain point' is called ammonium nitrate. Oil & water do not become explosive when combined. Do a search.
    America Needs AMERICA'S Oil!!!

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  17. #42
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    Re: Muriatic Acid

    However at a certain point, a certain temperature, they become explosive.
    Yes, if you drop a steel cylinder filled with oil and water, or just water even, into a running cupola, or into a large crucible of molten metal, you won't be around to tell the story-----


    -----but that's a far cry from what had previously been discussed here, or was likely to happen here.... so.....it doesn't count, in my book.

  18. #43
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    Re: Muriatic Acid

    The welding ARC is a possibility.

    I know someone that had a coworker that just touched a tank with a an ARC rod, to stop a tiny pinhole in a repair he just did. The tank still had water and pressure in it. His arm was found later a block away with the ARC rod in it.

    What happened exactly, I don't know. Was it oil in the tank, just the water, just steam. I would have to do some destructive testing or severe small scale lab testing to determine that.

    Hot oil and water can create an explosive together. I have done some testing with this myself. And it was conclusive for me. Water is 8:1 oxygen over hydrogen by weight. That means a lot of oxygen. I mean a lot of oxygen, almost like liquid oxygen.

    For the record, I never claimed that the oil slick on your favorite fishing lake is going to capsize your boat with a Hiroshima blast. I stated that under pressure, where heat is always seconds away, you could easily create conditions where oil and water, became dangerous.

    Someone in my family was pumping contaminated diesel fuel and water out of a tank. The Bearing in the pump, went, heated and created the most amazing flame thrower they ever saw. It shot over to the acetylene storage tanks and detonated them, one by one.

    I know diesel fuel and it is not known to create a flame thrower without a catalyst.

    So I do not know what you guys are saying, or why you are saying it. I am just stating some fun American facts about science and industry, that may pertain to someone placing oil and water together at elevated pressure that often turns into elevated temperature and or chemical reactions.

    If you look at the ingredients of a Molotov Cocktail, you will see that one of them is water in the crude oil, the other gasoline, and wax. Sometimes common alcohol like Vodka is substituted. I don't think the water is in there to cool the enemy down. Or un- parch their lips. In fact I do believe that it will parch their lips nicely.

    I do not just go around saying things to say them. I say them because they are real.



    In Vietnam there is many a brave tail of how the men used diesel fuel, water, and an emulsifier to create homemade napalm. Because they could not get an air strike in time.

    So I just thought this would be common small factory knowledge.

    I also say these things because of George Washington, who said.

    "Nothing deserves your patronage more then the promotion of science and literature. Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness.

    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
    Last edited by William McCormick Jr; 01-21-2010 at 10:23 PM. Reason: Poor grammar, misspelled word, left out a word

  19. #44
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    Re: Muriatic Acid

    Quote Originally Posted by denrep View Post
    "Forbidden

    You don't have permission to access /editpost.php on this server.

    Additionally, a 403 Forbidden error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request."

    WHAT?!?
    I got that the other day too. I was like "Jeez, did I ban myself on accident???!!!"
    And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.

  20. #45
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    Re: Muriatic Acid

    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick Jr View Post
    Hot oil and water can create an explosive together. I have done some testing with this myself. And it was conclusive for me. Water is 8:1 oxygen over hydrogen by weight. That means a lot of oxygen. I mean a lot of oxygen, almost like liquid oxygen.

    So I do not know what you guys are saying, or why you are saying it. I am just stating some fun American facts about science and industry, that may pertain to someone placing oil and water together at elevated pressure that often turns into elevated temperature and or chemical reactions.

    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
    William, first, I know you're trying to be helpful.

    Oil (combined with water) are found in limestone rock (CaCO3), which also contains oxygen. Water molecules are pretty stable, as are limestone molecules. I have yet to see any of our oilfields turning into volcanos because these substances are combined at moderately high pressures and temperatures.

    Since you "have done some testing with this myself. And it was conclusive for me," perhaps you can tell us exactly what testing you did and how you were able to make this mixture explosive. We're all trying to learn, William. Help us out!

    By the way, coal can be combined with water to yield CO2 and hydrogen. Hydrogen is explosive.
    America Needs AMERICA'S Oil!!!

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  21. #46
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    Re: Muriatic Acid

    You mention hydrogen it is a funny gas. It used to be used for atomic hydrogen welding. By passing hydrogen through an arc, you can cause a very hot plasma. Just like the addition of a tiny bit of hydrogen to nitrogen in a plasma cutter can allow you to cut many inches of stainless steel. Helium will do that too.

    The hydrogen bomb works upon that principle.

    Although these effects are or seem explosive by all that would view them. I believe they have another term for it though.
    What I am talking about is that oil and water, when combined, and heated will at some temperature, explode. And the temperature may not be as high as you think.

    Take a look at this.
    http://www.rockwelder.com/wmv/KitchenOilFire.wmv

    We had this debate already. And some were saying that air is getting into the blue column created by the fast moving gases coming out of the pot of hot oil. I know something about air flow and mixing of gases to create flame.
    I know that was not the case. So I did some experiments.

    http://www.rockwelder.com/wmv/hydrocarbonburn.wmv

    You can see that the original all blue flame is no longer blue without oxygen getting into the flame before it comes out of the copper tube, in the movie link just above.


    There is no way to get that blue flame unless, water is lending oxygen to the oil in the pot of oil on fire.



    Sincerely,


    William McCormick

  22. #47
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    Re: Muriatic Acid

    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick Jr View Post
    There is no way to get that blue flame unless, water is lending oxygen to the oil in the pot of oil on fire.


    so where is the water in the candle stick?

    water is a pretty stable molecule ...
    remember people fight fires with it, quench metal with it, etc.

    the water is encouraging that fire, not by breaking the molecular bonds, but by the instant conversion of water to steam. when the water is introduced into the pot of 450F oil, the water is instantly converted to steam, which takes up considerably more volume than the liquid did. so it explodes creating an already burning atomized mixture of steam, oil, and atmosphere.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_explosion

    Mike

  23. #48
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    Re: Muriatic Acid

    Posted above:

    The hydrogen bomb works upon that principle.
    William; you need to do a little research about this, perhaps starting with the "Manhattan Project". It might surprise you to learn what is really happening there and what it took to achieve anything close to what you're talking about.

  24. #49
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    Re: Muriatic Acid

    Look at the profile of the candle. It causes air to be sucked around the outside edge and into the flame. That is not the case of the pot. I hope you genuinely posted your information for the sake of knowledge.

    Make a tube around a thin candle and it will not let air into the flame. It will either go out or create a smoky yellow flame. If I get a chance I will film it.

    Or your paraffin or wax has water in it. Or oxygen in it.

    I used to work HAZMAT and I came across paraffins that were contaminated with water, by the process that they were used in. Usually adhesives for packaging or labeling. If we lit one drop on fire, it could burn for as long as a minute, turn heavy metal cherry red, and we could not extinguish it.

    I worked with a fellow that had a bad experience with it. I was making fun of him.

    I apologized for a long time afterwards, when he lit a bong top cap with an invisible layer of this stuff, on it, on fire. We could not put it out. It started throwing balls of fire at us. The bong top glowed.
    I went from clown to almost soiling my shorts. I wish I had never doubted him.

    Because we were standing about twenty feet away from the other 55 gallon drums filled with this stuff, and this cap started hurling balls of fire at us and the drums. Some of the balls shot as far as ten feet.

    I had told him that we were far enough away from the other drums for a test. And I kept saying come on what are you a chicken. He was shaking. I thought he was just over doing it. Never again will I say those words. It could be me in that position.

    He said to me about ten times. "You just don't know what this stuff can do. We are to close to the other drums". I just kept on saying come on.

    But more then likely the candle flame is taking air in from the sides. Because the base of the flame, is elevated above the edges. That is not the case with the oil fire or the acetylene in my movie.

    It would be like holding an oil soaked wick a few inches above the pot. Yes it would take in, or pull in air.

    Real experts dreaded the Manhattan project. They knew we already had planet sterilizing weapons. The Manhattan project was a counterintelligence operation. That was announced afterwards. But most did not want to hear about it.
    England and the United States promised to keep the secret of the atom from the world. Even though that meant total retardation and total paranoia, with subsequent demise of our civilization.

    There was no conspiracy at all, the government openly came out and said that they would treat us like retards. And we have lived up to that title.


    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
    Last edited by William McCormick Jr; 01-23-2010 at 07:49 PM. Reason: I misspelled some words and omitted some words

  25. #50
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    Re: Muriatic Acid

    Real experts dreaded the Manhattan project. They knew we already had planet sterilizing weapons. The Manhattan project was a counterintelligence operation. That was announced afterwards. But most did not want to hear about it.
    England and the United States promised to keep the secret of the atom from the world. Even though that meant total retardation and total paranoia, with subsequent demise of our civilization.

    There was no conspiracy at all, the government openly came out and said that they would treat us like retards. And we have lived up to that title.
    William, could you please translate that for me?

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