Blacksmithing and forging

[VaughnT]

If you haven't seen it yet, I recommend it.....



I'm a huge fan of traditional ironwork in part because we so rarely see anyone making stuff 100% old-school. A millions videos on hammering out yet another bottle opener really makes blacksmithing look kind of irrelevant in the modern age. As you might imagine, I was very happy to watch Torbjorn's latest work!

Hopefully, just maybe, possibly, quality videos like this will get customers thinking that about how much work is involved in making what they want. Torbjorn said he has about a week in the ironwork, so figure 40 hours at $50/hr shop rate. Even if you cut the hours in half, that's still well outside the price range of 99% of folks!

The one thing I would do different, and pretty much always do, is to drill the starter holes for the rivets. I know it's sexier to do them the traditional way, but it adds a ton of time that has to be paid for somehow.

If I'm planning on a 1/2" hole and want that nice little swell in the sides, I'll drill a 1/4" hole in the bar and drift it open to 1/2". Some folks don't think that it provides enough swell, but I think it looks very very similar to what the bars in the video looked like.

Being able to drill the holes out when everything's cold is a tremendous time saver. Of course, having an Ironworker that'll punch out a slot would be even nicer!

Seeing his little edge-line maker gizmo really makes me want that Crain hydraulic press! Doing that by hand would be a nightmare!!

[psacustomcreations]

How about welding up a box and attaching "thought balloons" above it or a "question mark stick man" leaning on it?





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I have already made something like that from scuba tank rings.

[VaughnT]

I like this Polish company's forge. Can you who have Blacksmithing knowledge and experience critique it?

Perun has a good reputation so I wouldn't feel bad about buying it. However, you need to think about what you're going to do with the forge and how you want to grow as a smith.

Most folks who are just starting out will have no problem with a forge like the Perun because you'll be spending your time making hooks and bottle openers. But what happens when you want to make a larger piece like a plant hanger and need to put a twist in the middle of a 16" bar?

By having the pass-through port 90º to the main opening, this severely limits how you can access the chamber. It's great for horseshoes, nails, hooks and other straight line items. But what do you do when you need something bent right in the middle and the bar is long?

I don't know what kind of insulation they're using, but I'd think it'd be alright for most anything. It certainly can't be any worse than the Majestic forge I've been using for years.

[psacustomcreations]

A couple more items completed today.

[ronsii]

A couple more items completed today.

Cool!!!, I like the heart but it almost needs a base of some sort??? not sure how it would interact with the two profiles though

[Lis2323]

The heart looks best from an angle. The other one is my fave tho.


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[ronsii]

The heart looks best from an angle. The other one is my fave tho.


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It does look better from an angle Hmmmmm, maybe the flat part should have been angled???

[Lis2323]

It does look better from an angle Hmmmmm, maybe the flat part should have been angled???

Yes. Maybe more twisted ??


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[ronsii]

Yes. Maybe more twisted ??


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Yes... although I can see that making it a whole lot harder to hammer up.

[whtbaron]

Go figure this crowd would like things just a little more twisted...

[ronsii]

Go figure this crowd would like things just a little more twisted...

At least I didn't mention the color

[Shootr]

A couple more items completed today.

I like the way the heart morphs and changes thicknesses as my perspective changes. Brings it to life. Great work.

[VaughnT]

I keep getting behind on orders and then have to bust my butt to catch things up. No sooner do I catch up than I catch an injury that puts me behind again.

Managed to get something like 50 hooks forged and finished in less than six hours, and I am one tired fellow. Tomorrow, I get to cut some more steel and forge another fifty hooks.

Let's hope that I don't catch another boo-boo that sets me back a few days!

Noticed that my go-to cross peen hammer is starting to mushroom. Any guesses as to how many hooks you have to forge to upset the face of your hammer? It's a lot!

[Shootr]

I'm starting to get things set up to do some dry runs, and then my first try at beating on hot steel.


I figure I'll start on a piece of 3/8" rebar, then if that goes well, a railroad spike. Couple questions if I may:

How much does the forge need to "breathe"? Can I cover most of the front and all of the rear while it heats up? Is a sliver of an opening enough or more?


I want to make a twisting tool for the spikes - I have a bunch of these old pipe wrenches from garage sales - can I weld a spike onto the head and be good to go?


I got the propane hose so I can use a BBQ sized tank. I like where everything is in the top pic - just trying to not overlook too much with this first go at it.

Thx

[Lis2323]

Shootr you may want to grind the teeth off that pipe wrench.

Easier not having "bite" marks on your work to start with rather than needing to dress it up later.


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[VaughnT]

How much does the forge need to "breathe"? Can I cover most of the front and all of the rear while it heats up? Is a sliver of an opening enough or more?

You'll have to wait and see what the torch is doing. The size of your burner will determine how much breathing room you need, and a smaller burner generally means less of a gap necessary. I'd open the back a hair just to give the dragon's breath a place to go. If you close off the back entirely, you're forcing all the heat to go out the front.... exactly where your hand is going to be. Might not be a problem with a small burner and not much of that wonderful dragon's breath, but it's something to keep in mind.

can I weld a spike onto the head and be good to go?

Sure, as mentioned, just grind the teeth off the jaws first. Personally, I'd opt for something other than a spike so you can balance things out better. Some of the metal you might be twisting could be rather tough, especially as it cools down. Having some leverage isn't a bad thing. Kinda better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

I'm not a fan of using pipe wrenches because the jaws never seem to be parallel. When you latch onto a square bar to twist it, the jaw only hits on the one corner and tends to mar it up even if you don't have the teeth to worry about. No really big deal, but something to think about.

If you really want to make something for twisting railroad spikes, I highly recommend the head-grabber design. This allows you to twist all the way up the shank and is a good welding project.

[Shootr]

Well, I can't really complain for my first effort. I skipped the rebar and decided to see how I did with a spike. After watching videos I got really ambitious (stupid?) and figured I'd try that scale look for the twist handle:


Comments on the forge: a spike is the biggest thing I can imagine doing in it. Propane and the bernzomatic torch head just don't quite generate the heat as Vaughn had noted. After a few heats and re-heats, I could get a pretty bright red, but never approached any orange/yellow colors (unless I held the steel right in the flame).




I could work 10-20 seconds at a time, which I expected. From lighting the torch to get to this point was right at an hour. As I worked I quickly got a feel for watching the forge and getting the heat where I wanted it each time. My hammering aim is also respectable (imo) - but: I still don't understand how to direct the blows and/or hold the steel to push the metal in the direction that I want. I wound up getting the belly of the blade coming out the top of the steel rather than the bottom.



So that left me with a decision when doing the handle twist: Go 180 degrees, or 540 degrees - I chose wrong lol:


I really really took my time heating, twisting a little, re-heating - etc. But between the cuts being too deep and just not getting a enough heat into the core of the spike - I think that's what doomed me.

In conclusion: I built the forge to take 3/8" rebar and make small, rough stick figures for some art ideas that I have - and for that I know it will be adequate. I'm super-intrigued at how it would do with the T-Rex 3/8" burner for making bigger things like spike-knives. So once I learn how to steer the steel when pounding on it I can start learning other things about forging.

[ronsii]

I think you actually did pretty good for that small of burner and the size of the spike!!! yeah the cuts were a bit deep in my opinion.. but that's how you learn to do different things and maybe come up with a new technique for something else

[shortfuse]

Shootr, I think you actually came out ahead on that spike project. You would have found that the Rubik's twist on the handle (or anything requiring a tight hand grip) would have been VERY uncomfortable to use. Even grinding down the sharp corners leaves an uncomfortable grip. Forge on and keep experimenting; that's the only way to learn.

[VaughnT]

Well, I can't really complain for my first effort.

Certainly nothing to complain about!

I could work 10-20 seconds at a time, which I expected. From lighting the torch to get to this point was right at an hour.

10-20 seconds is about all anyone gets. You can stretch it out a little longer if you're starting at a high orange or yellow heat, but not by much. The anvil and hammer will suck the heat out of your steel with a voracious appetite!

As I worked I quickly got a feel for watching the forge and getting the heat where I wanted it each time. My hammering aim is also respectable (imo) - but: I still don't understand how to direct the blows and/or hold the steel to push the metal in the direction that I want. I wound up getting the belly of the blade coming out the top of the steel rather than the bottom.

It's amazing what experience will get you!

My first recommendation would be to stop with the "multiple step" stuff. If you want to do a rubic twist, do that. If you want to forge a square into a flat, do that. Trying to mix things when you have zero experience is just asking for trouble. Don't give Mr. Murphy any more opportunities than possible because he loves those opportunities and will be quick to take you up on the offer!

Did you try to twist the whole length at the same time, or did you use the open-end wrench on each section for better control and feel? The latter is preferred, imo, because you can feel when it's about to pop in two and hopefully stop yourself from doing it!

... between the cuts being too deep and just not getting a enough heat into the core of the spike - I think that's what doomed me.

The cuts don't look too deep, but your heat certainly wasn't where it needed to be. One of the hardest lessons to learn is how to sit on your thumbs doing nothing while you're wait that extra 5 minutes for the steel to warm all the way through. It might look like a nice high orange on the outside, but that doesn't mean it's the same on the inside. And this becomes even more of a problem when it starts cooling down in the vise. The shearing you see is the result.

In conclusion: I built the forge to take 3/8" rebar and make small, rough stick figures for some art ideas that I have - and for that I know it will be adequate. I'm super-intrigued at how it would do with the T-Rex 3/8" burner for making bigger things like spike-knives. So once I learn how to steer the steel when pounding on it I can start learning other things about forging.

Soft fire brick isn't the best insulator in the world, but you've shown that it'll work for the small stuff you're wanting to do. You can squeeze a little more performance out of the forge by painting the inside of the chamber with an IR reflective paint like Metrikote 90AC or ITC 100. It's the infrared spectrum they tell me does the heating, so being able to bounce that back into the forge rather than having it leak out through the brick is a good thing. I can't speak from extensive experience, but every smith that does their own forge says that it should be the last thing you put on because it helps. https://www.bladesmithsforum.com/ind...ed-reflective/


Were I you, I'd grab a few more spikes and just play around making a display piece that illustrates a lot of the different twists that are possible. No need to worry about making them in to knives or anything else. Just make a pretty display for your wall.

[psacustomcreations]

Well, I can't really complain for my first effort. I skipped the rebar and decided to see how I did with a spike.

So that left me with a decision when doing the handle twist: Go 180 degrees, or 540 degrees - I chose wrong lol:

.

He is the expert here, and as Vaughn noted, the spike was too cold for the twist. I am also speaking from the voice of experience here since I did the same thing with a twist. My stock was only a 3/8" piece but the same problem happened and it broke just like yours.

You did very well with your attempt. I will warn you though. Quite while you are ahead. Next thing you know, you will want a bigger forge, then some tongs, then a real anvil, then more hammers, then more tools, etc, etc,.

[VaughnT]

He is the expert here....

If that's the case.... we're in a lot of trouble!

I don't know what's worse, having that twist snap after you've gone through all that work, or having a leaf just pop off the end of the stem because you worked it a hair too cold. Either way, I've been there a hundred times. Never liked it.

The good news, I guess, is that railroad spikes are cheap as dirt so at least you're not out a ton of money.

[Shootr]

Appreciate all the input and information - yeah...It'll be nice to have the ability to use a forge to add to my art attempts. Like you said Vaughn, that was really a bummer when I felt it yielding before it snapped. This is my ugly a$$ version of the twist tool you posted - again, using junk from the pile:





After a little lunch and a rest, I went out to give it another go just for giggles:



This time I dragged my chair over and waited out each heating cycle. Using channel locks is definitely a handicap (I'm keeping an eye on the ads to try and score some tongs). But I let the shank cook for a good while, and sure enough it twisted beautifully (I just scored it a little for the pattern this time). Too tired to finish it today - still trying to get my energy back after the wuhan flu, so tomorrow I'll see how it turns out.

[ronsii]

Appreciate all the input and information - yeah...It'll be nice to have the ability to use a forge to add to my art attempts. Like you said Vaughn, that was really a bummer when I felt it yielding before it snapped. This is my ugly a$$ version of the twist tool you posted - again, using junk from the pile:





After a little lunch and a rest, I went out to give it another go just for giggles:



This time I dragged my chair over and waited out each heating cycle. Using channel locks is definitely a handicap (I'm keeping an eye on the ads to try and score some tongs). But I let the shank cook for a good while, and sure enough it twisted beautifully (I just scored it a little for the pattern this time). Too tired to finish it today - still trying to get my energy back after the wuhan flu, so tomorrow I'll see how it turns out.

Looking good!!!!!



By the looks of that spike you're on the right track

[whtbaron]

Looking good!!!!!

By the looks of that spike you're on the right track

Ohhh.... groaner alert! LOL