Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 29

Thread: Some questions concerning underwater welding

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    8
    Post Thanks / Like

    Some questions concerning underwater welding

    Hi everyone, I researched some activities underwater welders do and I had some questions I wanted to ask
    Some concerns I had were:
    How do you guys maintain balance or keep yourself from being blown away by water current?
    Do you find it a need to enhance working efficiently? If not, what do you think is?

    Is it a hassle to put on the diving equipment before going diving?

    When working with sewers, doesn't your vision get compromised by the muddiness of the water? What do you do when you find yourself in this situation?

    A worker told me they use regular halogen light bulbs for diving. Surely is there a better light (LED?) that can help better.

    Is it a challenge to swim back up after with the weights carried? What if you can pull yourself up, like from the tethered cords?

    Why is the welding lens helmet separate from the helmet? Can it not just be one instead?

    Is there anything you noticed while working that could be improved on? What inspired this action?

    What is needed that should be readily available?

    I noticed on a broco stinger, the trigger is located on the bottom of the design? Is the reason to reduce human fault?

    I also noticed in some videos that welders get up extremely close to welding, as well using two hands? Why is it that they do that?

    I hope to hear from you guys, Thank you.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Port Orchard, WA.
    Posts
    10,287
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Some questions concerning underwater welding

    I've worked around several divers in the past. I can answer some of your questions.

    Some divers have told me they use ropes to hold them in place when needed.

    Tenders always help the diver get dressed and undressed.

    The divers I worked around had a one man basket, that was raised and lowered with a winch. This helps with staging the diver on the way back up. We had divers working at 220-feet deep on gas, it would take hours to get them back to the surface, then about 8-hours in the chamber.
    Donít pay any attention to me
    Iím just a hobbyist!

    Carl

    Dynasty 300
    V350-Pro w/pulse
    SG Spool gun
    1937 IdealArc-300
    PowerArc 200ST
    3 SA-200s
    Vantage 400





  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    1,964
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Some questions concerning underwater welding

    I'll try a few, Putting on equipment or suits (called diving dress ) often requires help from a tender , Diver visability is often limited by muddy water not just in sewers ,This is not sport diving in pristine water.The borco trigger as you call it is a thermal lance for cutting. the welding lens is a cover lens for the helmet windows ,and you can not take it off and switch helmets ouder water. A Desco air hat or dives systems international Superlite 27 cost several thousand dollars and most time the diver owns it, the welding is just part of the job . If you are afraid of the TOE MONSTER commercial diving is not for you. Watch the Movie Men Of Honor to get a look at what some of it is like.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    North of Philly
    Posts
    20,241
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Some questions concerning underwater welding

    In sport diving, LED's have just about replaces halogen systems, primarily due to longer burn times on battery power. Down side is LED's still don't put out the light output a good halogen system can at the same cost, and LED's usually produce a very diffuse light. You really need a tight beam to punch thru the back scatter. Reflector technology on LED's is improving though to combat this all the time.

    HID lighting replaced most halogen systems. It's a good compromise between power usage and light quantity. HID's like halogen systems are easy to get the reflectors to work to accomplish what you need them to do.


    As far as staying in place or swimming, you have to understand buoyancy. Underwater to swim, you want to be a neutrally buoyant as possible so it's easy to swim or maintain a given depth. If working on the bottom, added weight makes it easier to stay in place. To get the best of both worlds, divers use added air to increase their buoyancy. Typically this is done by adding air to their suit or buoyancy control device so they can be heavy or buoyant as needed. As mentioned commercial divers often use platforms to control and maintain depth in open water when they need to work at deep depths.


    As far as viability, you simply learn to work by feel most times. The scene in Men of Honor where he has to take his test, the water clarity as absolutely wonderful compared to many commercial dives. We did one job where the HID light became completely invisible in 6" of water. No glow or anything, you'd think the light just went out. In some cases where we had really bad interior conditions and the diver needed to work like on one barge job we did, we had 2 2 1/2" fire hoses blowing clean water down in from of the diver and a 4" pump trying to suck out the "bad" water. This gave him semi visibility for about 12" around where he needed to work.



    If the lever on a brocco torch was at the top, it would be in the way when changing rods. You need to grab the top of the torch to rotate the ring to loosen and replace the old rod. If the handle was up there, it would be in your way possibly when grabbing the torch in zero vis.
    .



    No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth!

    Ronald Reagan

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    North of Philly
    Posts
    20,241
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Some questions concerning underwater welding

    In sport diving, LED's have just about replaces halogen systems, primarily due to longer burn times on battery power. Down side is LED's still don't put out the light output a good halogen system can at the same cost, and LED's usually produce a very diffuse light. You really need a tight beam to punch thru the back scatter. Reflector technology on LED's is improving though to combat this all the time.

    HID lighting replaced most halogen systems. It's a good compromise between power usage and light quantity. HID's like halogen systems are easy to get the reflectors to work to accomplish what you need them to do.


    As far as staying in place or swimming, you have to understand buoyancy. Underwater to swim, you want to be a neutrally buoyant as possible so it's easy to swim or maintain a given depth. If working on the bottom, added weight makes it easier to stay in place. To get the best of both worlds, divers use added air to increase their buoyancy. Typically this is done by adding air to their suit or buoyancy control device so they can be heavy or buoyant as needed. As mentioned commercial divers often use platforms to control and maintain depth in open water when they need to work at deep depths.


    As far as viability, you simply learn to work by feel most times. The scene in Men of Honor where he has to take his test, the water clarity as absolutely wonderful compared to many commercial dives. We did one job where the HID light became completely invisible in 6" of water. No glow or anything, you'd think the light just went out. In some cases where we had really bad interior conditions and the diver needed to work like on one barge job we did, we had 2 2 1/2" fire hoses blowing clean water down in from of the diver and a 4" pump trying to suck out the "bad" water. This gave him semi visibility for about 12" around where he needed to work.



    If the lever on a brocco torch was at the top, it would be in the way when changing rods. You need to grab the top of the torch to rotate the ring to loosen and replace the old rod. If the handle was up there, it would be in your way possibly when grabbing the torch in zero vis.
    .



    No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth!

    Ronald Reagan

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Port Orchard, WA.
    Posts
    10,287
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Some questions concerning underwater welding

    A friend of mine was on a dive job in Mexico. Bolting the flange on a vertical pipe. Used ropes with spliced eyes, one eye over a bolt head the other as a stirrup. He said he was in his own world just wrenching away. All of a sudden this huge grouper fish swim around from the back side of the pipe. He said the eye on the fish was about the size of a platter. Scared the he!! out of him. He fell backwards, one foot went through the rope stirrup. Now he's hanging upside down, and just knows this fish is going to eat him. He's screaming like a little girl, the whole time his tender is on the intercom trying to tell him these grouper fish are harmless, and he is OK, to calm down!
    Donít pay any attention to me
    Iím just a hobbyist!

    Carl

    Dynasty 300
    V350-Pro w/pulse
    SG Spool gun
    1937 IdealArc-300
    PowerArc 200ST
    3 SA-200s
    Vantage 400





  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Fitchburg, Massachusetts, United States
    Posts
    556
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Some questions concerning underwater welding

    I like to swim, and have always had an interest in commercial diving/welding jobs...but big fish really do terrify me x)
    Miller Spoolmate 200 w/t S-52 Wirefeeder
    MM 211
    '09 Miller Trailblazer 302

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    1,964
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Some questions concerning underwater welding

    The Grouper in the gulf are almost mythical . It seem, that the only people who see them are oil patch divers. Heard a story about 50 years ago,when I first learned to dive about some divers in a bell down deep in the gulf. A big grouper took and interest in them and the bell ,scared the crap out of the two divers ,They had to wench them up and put them in the chamber.Another sea story about a sea turtle bothering the divers on a pipeline until they feed it , seems they had to catch a couple lobsters and feed him before he would let them alone .Marine biologist got wind of it and came to investigate , to make sure the divers weren't abusing the sea turtles , last they saw of them was the turtle chasing them back to Florida nipping at them.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    1,964
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Some questions concerning underwater welding

    Oh and don't forget the Giant Squid!!!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    8
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Some questions concerning underwater welding

    Wow, really interesting stories! I never knew how much marine life love to mess with you on the job, haha.
    Aren't there anything more mechanical that would be better than ropes? I wonder if there is anything assist you down there because you are carrying a lot of tools down there too, right? What do you guys usually carry with you when you go underwater?


    What do you think could help improve efficiency in your work environment?

    Thanks for answering, they're really informative!

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    8
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Some questions concerning underwater welding

    I was wondering about underwater inspection on pipeline, is that also part of the job as a welder? I seen on videos robots inspecting, but what is it that they're checking for? How did divers use it before compared to today?

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    8
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Some questions concerning underwater welding

    Do you also think being able to mount on to the pipeline to weld would be the most important activity?

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    North of Philly
    Posts
    20,241
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Some questions concerning underwater welding

    Very little welding actually takes place underwater. It's extremely costly to put a diver in the water to weld and the welds are generally 2nd best. The vast majority of welds are done top side, then things are assembled underwater with bolts if need be. There is a fair amount of underwater cutting done to remove old hardware. It's simply faster to cut the old bolts than it is to try and loosen rusty corroded ones.

    Underwater welding gets a lot of hype. It's flashy and looks "cool" but isn't done all that much. It's sort of like demolition. Lots of people think of implosions and using explosives to demolish buildings because it gets lots of air time on TV. You don't often just see the guys knocking down buildings with loaders or track hoes with claws. I'd bet you easily 1000 buildings if not more get demoed for every implosion, but you just don't usually hear much about it.

    As far as tools, you take the minimum with you. you really don't have a spot for a full tool box. If you need something else, they'll send it down to you. Keep in mind most times you don't have any place to lay things down. You can tie off a tool so you can use both hands on a job, but you really don't have space to 3 or 4 things. Also keep in mind chances are high you are doing all of this work by feel or in very limited visibility. Because of this tolls are kept to a minimum for ease and simplicity. You really can't sit there and try to figure out what wrench you need. Most times one wrench will fit every nut/bolt they are going to use even if those nuts and bolts are a lot larger than they regularly might need to be.

    Time is the big killer underwater. If doing deco diving, each minute underwater means several minutes added in decompression. The diver has to be monitored full time, even if he's doing nothing but deco. On top of the diver you usually have at least 3 guys in "support" of the diver. A supervisor, a tender, and a standby diver. Then you may have others standing by to run the chamber, medical personnel and so on. You simply can't waste time under water.

    As far as inspection, a lot of that work is being replaced by ROV's today. Again it's a man power thing. Rather than have a diver with a camera to film what the inspector needs to see, they can use an ROV. You then aren't limited by decompression time, depth and so on. In some cases it's still easier and cheaper to use divers, but with the cost of ROV's coming down and the issues with liability going up, more and more if they can use an ROV they will.
    .



    No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth!

    Ronald Reagan

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    1,964
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Some questions concerning underwater welding

    Three tools most divers use are Hammer ,prybar,wrench ,Titanium if you can find them other wise SS .

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    4,440
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Some questions concerning underwater welding

    My first zero visibility working dive was on a pump intake structure for a power plant on a lake in TX. The job was to run a air lift and suck out all the fine silt that had built up in the pump bays. There were 4 seperate bays that we tagged out and did one at a time. I knew I was going to have zero visability but what I hadn't anticipated was just how frigging loud it was going to be from the pumps still running in the adjacent bays. I shinnied down the sucking lift hose, got to the bottom (about 30') and just froze up and was scared to move. It sounded like there was an industrial strength garbage disposal running all around me. It took me getting some re assurance from the radio operate that the pump in the bay I was in hadn't gotten energized and that all the noise was coming from adjacent bays and that it was physically impossible for me to accidently get over into those bays. I'm guessing it took almost 5 minutes before I got my imagination (and breathing) under control and gathered up enough courage to reach out and try and find the wall and get myself oriented and get to work. The fact that I'd spent the previous 2 hours tending another diver who went down first and started the job in that bay went a long way in providing me with the necessary peer pressure to keep me from *****-ing out and climbing immediately back to the surface.

    On top of all that, being the new guy, the other more experienced guys decided to run the "mud eel" gag on me. While I was tending the first diver I was close enough to the radio that I could clearly hear all that was being said. The first diver kept saying stuff about there being hundreds of small eels coming out of the silt and slithering all over and around him. Every now and then he said some thing about one getting in his coveralls with him and that he had to stop and get it out. They played this up to the hilt even telling me stuff like I didn't need to worry about them biting me because there teeth were so small they couldn't break the skin and that it was just more of a raspy feeling when one latch on to you. These guys had pulled this joke before and were really good at selling it. I fell for it hook, line and sinker. I probably used a half roll of duct tape making sure the legs of my coveralls were secured to my boot tops (and the sleeves tight around my wrists) before getting in the water because I was worried about these eels. I went in the water thinking I was going to be dealing with a slithering mass of eels while on the bottom. The noise had me so scared at first that I totally forgot about the eels that were suppose to be down there and didn't think about them again until around a half hour later when the radio operator asked me "any trouble with the eels?" And it was at this point where it started to slowly dawn on me just how thoroughly I'd been had.
    Last edited by HT2-4956; 11-14-2014 at 01:33 PM.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    4,440
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Some questions concerning underwater welding

    Quote Originally Posted by gxbxc View Post
    Three tools most divers use are Hammer ,prybar,wrench ,Titanium if you can find them other wise SS .
    The one tool that had a permanent place on my harness was a heavy pair of side cutters. Mostly used them for freeing myself up when entangled in large masses of monofilament fishing line. All those intake structures on lakes in Texas are just choked with gobs of that stuff.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Port Orchard, WA.
    Posts
    10,287
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Some questions concerning underwater welding

    Up and down the west coast divers are in the same union as I was. A lot of divers worked for me on derricks. One thing that always set me back. The majority of the divers I wouldn't send to the far end of the derrick to rig something by them selves. But I was suppose to send them underwater where I can't see what they are doing to rig something.
    Donít pay any attention to me
    Iím just a hobbyist!

    Carl

    Dynasty 300
    V350-Pro w/pulse
    SG Spool gun
    1937 IdealArc-300
    PowerArc 200ST
    3 SA-200s
    Vantage 400





  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    1,964
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Some questions concerning underwater welding

    Quote Originally Posted by HT2-4956 View Post
    My first zero visibility working dive was on a pump intake structure for a power plant on a lake in TX. The job was to run a air lift and suck out all the fine silt that had built up in the pump bays. There were 4 seperate bays that we tagged out and did one at a time. I knew I was going to have zero visability but what I hadn't anticipated was just how frigging loud it was going to be from the pumps still running in the adjacent bays. I shinnied down the sucking lift hose, got to the bottom (about 30') and just froze up and was scared to move. It sounded like there was an industrial strength garbage disposal running all around me. It took me getting some re assurance from the radio operate that the pump in the bay I was in hadn't gotten energized and that all the noise was coming from adjacent bays and that it was physically impossible for me to accidently get over into those bays. I'm guessing it took almost 5 minutes before I got my imagination (and breathing) under control and gathered up enough courage to reach out and try and find the wall and get myself oriented and get to work. The fact that I'd spent the previous 2 hours tending another diver who went down first and started the job in that bay went a long way in providing me with the necessary peer pressure to keep me from *****-ing out and climbing immediately back to the surface.

    On top of all that, being the new guy, the other more experienced guys decided to run the "mud eel" gag on me. While I was tending the first diver I was close enough to the radio that I could clearly hear all that was being said. The first diver kept saying stuff about there being hundreds of small eels coming out of the silt and slithering all over and around him. Every now and then he said some thing about one getting in his coveralls with him and that he had to stop and get it out. They played this up to the hilt even telling me stuff like I didn't need to worry about them biting me because there teeth were so small they couldn't break the skin and that it was just more of a raspy feeling when one latch on to you. These guys had pulled this joke before and were really good at selling it. I fell for it hook, line and sinker. I probably used a half roll of duct tape making sure the legs of my coveralls were secured to my boot tops (and the sleeves tight around my wrists) before getting in the water because I was worried about these eels. I went in the water thinking I was going to be dealing with a slithering mass of eels while on the bottom. The noise had me so scared at first that I totally forgot about the eels that were suppose to be down there and didn't think about them again until around a half hour later when the radio operator asked me "any trouble with the eels?" And it was at this point where it started to slowly dawn on me just how thoroughly I'd been had.
    Well they may have been pulling your leg about the eels ,but they do frequently get drawn into the water intakes , and then set stuck in the condenser water tubes . But about being sucked into another bay that is a valid fear as all are inlets were cross connected by openings in the walls . We had a DIVER sucked through on night , He said he held on as long as he could then when his strength gave out he let go he was lucky he was sucked into the equipment cooling pump chamber and not a big Circulater .They only have about 10 ft. of head pressure but move hundreds of thousands of gallon per min.
    Have fun and live on the edge .You never miss living until you almost die.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    North of Philly
    Posts
    20,241
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Some questions concerning underwater welding

    Quote Originally Posted by HT2-4956 View Post
    what I hadn't anticipated was just how frigging loud it was going to be from the pumps still running in the adjacent bays.
    Sounds like when I was diving in the ocean in limited vis and a tug passed overhead. At 70' I could swear the thing was going by at 10'. The throbbing of the prop was beating me into the sand. I knew big freighters could draw almost 50' and wondered if I was going to get sucked into the prop.
    .



    No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth!

    Ronald Reagan

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    4,440
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Some questions concerning underwater welding

    Quote Originally Posted by CEP View Post
    Up and down the west coast divers are in the same union as I was. A lot of divers worked for me on derricks. One thing that always set me back. The majority of the divers I wouldn't send to the far end of the derrick to rig something by them selves. But I was suppose to send them underwater where I can't see what they are doing to rig something.
    CEP,

    We worked with various crane crews on a pretty regular basis. We always had a pre get in the water meeting with all the other contractors involved (and the customer's rep) on a job not just for safety reason but also to try and figure out the best way to go about doing what needed to get done. A lot of times I'd go down first for a look just to figure out (or confirm) how things were actually laying before a lifting plan got decided on. Not being a rigging expert myself I always paid close attention to the advice given me by those that were. For the most part I was just down there following orders doing what others had asked me to do. A lot of times the most time consuming (and hairiest) part of rigging to lift something was jetting a tunnel out underneath it so you could a sling around it.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    4,440
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Some questions concerning underwater welding

    Quote Originally Posted by gxbxc View Post
    Well they may have been pulling your leg about the eels ,but they do frequently get drawn into the water intakes , and then set stuck in the condenser water tubes . But about being sucked into another bay that is a valid fear as all are inlets were cross connected by openings in the walls . We had a DIVER sucked through on night , He said he held on as long as he could then when his strength gave out he let go he was lucky he was sucked into the equipment cooling pump chamber and not a big Circulater .They only have about 10 ft. of head pressure but move hundreds of thousands of gallon per min.
    Have fun and live on the edge .You never miss living until you almost die.
    gxbcx,

    One of the main factors behind these power plants wanting to keep the fine silt down in these pump bays was because it was a perfect breeding ground for an invasive species of fresh water Asian mussel. It was these that they were starting to have problems with clogging the condenser tubes. This silt was chocked full of ones penny size or smaller. If I had to guess I'd say there were at least a 1000 of them / cubic foot. When we were done there was such a pile of them on shore where the suction hose discharged that they needed a front end loader to scoop them up.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    8
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Some questions concerning underwater welding

    This is all so interesting!

    What can commercial divers still do that robots cant just yet?

    I was wondering if such a manner can commercial divers can clamped themselves onto pipes, that way they don't get blown away from water current or constantly swimming.
    Generally how big in diameter are these pipes?

    I was told that operators control the power switch because it minimizes diver's risk. What are the thoughts of having a battery pack? Will it add too much risk to the workers?

    I thought of an idea if maybe there could be a similar version of a robotic weld arm for underwater that also clamps onto the pipe, it would need man operated underwater. Thoughts?

    Are there any product that could be improved upon on? A need to the niche?

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    8
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Some questions concerning underwater welding

    It seems the umbilical cord is the important lifeline to commercial divers, I notice it's usually floating and it also is used as ladder to the surface because of the weight commercial divers carry. In any way does the cord float around become a nuisance? I even noticed there are 3 different colors tangled as 1. What do each of those color cords do?

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    North of Philly
    Posts
    20,241
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Some questions concerning underwater welding

    Umbilical is usually neutrally buoyant so it really doesn't "float". Minimum is usually coms, air and a life line. You might also have a power cable for lights and possibly a video feed in the package if you are doing inspection work.
    .



    No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth!

    Ronald Reagan

  25. #25
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Port Orchard, WA.
    Posts
    10,287
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Some questions concerning underwater welding

    I remember one time working with divers. The divers were on gas, I had to stand right next to the intercom, because I flagged the crane with radio. So the diver would say on the intercom what he wanted the crane to do, and I would radio the crane operator. 90% of the time I couldn't understand what the diver was saying. This new diver from Alaska was making his first dive. He lost track of his umbilical cord, and set a 25-ton lifting frame on it. He ask why he wasn't getting any air. All the divers, and tenders on deck ran to the compressors. The diver said he was going to his bail out bottle. Couple tenders started suiting up the stand by diver to go get him. The dive superintendent looked at me and said come up on the load. I called it in, the diver relaxed and said he could breath now! That was an exciting few minutes!
    Are you sure you want to be a diver?
    Donít pay any attention to me
    Iím just a hobbyist!

    Carl

    Dynasty 300
    V350-Pro w/pulse
    SG Spool gun
    1937 IdealArc-300
    PowerArc 200ST
    3 SA-200s
    Vantage 400





Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Page generated in 1,607,025,245.39623 seconds with 11 queries