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Thread: check this out a welder that uses water

  1. #51
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    As for portability I do have a 3000 watt continuous Vector inverter in my truck and would like to see if it will run off 110 modified sine wave and monitor the power it required to do so. That would make a big plus in portability
    This US operation has only been going in the US since Jan of this year while being popular in Europe for several. The inventor is a Russian gentleman.

    I need to spend more hood time to get a better opinion of how it does aluminum... I said I was not impressed which was a nice way of saying what I tried sucked but I was able to get it to wet out with some adjustments on the machine. So I think the aluminum has potential but need to find out what works. The absence of needed additional shielding gasses etc. would pay off in the long run for sure... If you use it a lot.
    I will try some heating and bending with it next time

    If It does well on dissimilar metals which i did not try as well as the good results I saw on pre-done copper, brass etc. those are hard to join and a reliable way to do that for someone working on those things would definitely be worth the investment.

    I forgot to add they vary the % of alcohol to water at a rate of 50% to 70% mixture seems to give different results. this is an area they are still doing trial and error on.

    As for the machine itself, I did like the concept and the way it worked, portability, low power demand etc. It seems like a quality product I just want to get hands on more and see what all can really do. I am here on vacation so Its a fun learning experience in an area of my interest, so why not take advantage of it... Anyone else what to Join me for a day at their office.??
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  2. #52
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    Quote Originally Posted by soutthpaw View Post
    As for portability I do have a 3000 watt continuous Vector inverter in my truck and would like to see if it will run off 110 modified sine wave and monitor the power it required to do so. That would make a big plus in portability
    This US operation has only been going in the US since Jan of this year while being popular in Europe for several. The inventor is a Russian gentleman.

    I need to spend more hood time to get a better opinion of how it does aluminum... I said I was not impressed which was a nice way of saying what I tried sucked but I was able to get it to wet out with some adjustments on the machine. So I think the aluminum has potential but need to find out what works. The absence of needed additional shielding gasses etc. would pay off in the long run for sure... If you use it a lot.
    I will try some heating and bending with it next time

    If It does well on dissimilar metals which i did not try as well as the good results I saw on pre-done copper, brass etc. those are hard to join and a reliable way to do that for someone working on those things would definitely be worth the investment.

    I forgot to add they vary the % of alcohol to water at a rate of 50% to 70% mixture seems to give different results. this is an area they are still doing trial and error on.

    As for the machine itself, I did like the concept and the way it worked, portability, low power demand etc. It seems like a quality product I just want to get hands on more and see what all can really do. I am here on vacation so Its a fun learning experience in an area of my interest, so why not take advantage of it... Anyone else what to Join me for a day at their office.??
    I wish you would have sent the invite yesterday

    I live about 2 hrs travel time from there.(over by Hemet Ca )and i would like to see this machine but i have to plan a little more ahead

    I would like to see it run by a real welder not a demo man under certain conditions

    My O/A , tig welding technique is rusty but i could still do it with a little hood time

    Anyway have fun with it
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  3. #53
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    It will probably be early next week when I have a chance to go back. Tmw I'm going to pick up some welding supplies and metal, I will be in san bernadino on thurs for an equipment auction. Prob Friday at a friends house in riverside. I'm no "real" welder but I know what u mean. If u r interested next week let me know
    Last edited by soutthpaw; 07-19-2011 at 07:07 PM.
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  4. #54
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    Tomorrow i got to take my bud back to the doctor he had knee surgery last week (dumped his bike )

    and next thursday i'm going to be busy

    So monday,tuesday,wensday and friday are open

    Just let me know when and where
    Backed my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me

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  5. #55
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    Hi all, my first post on this web site.....I'm replying to Southpaw specifically about the Multiplaz unit.

    I'm the Australian guy named Ian who bought one and posted a number of posts on the Hobart weld site about the experience I've had so far with the unit.

    Rather than repeat at long length all the tests and methods I've applied, they can be seen at Weldzone.com......the thread is Multiplaz 3500 as far as I can recall, but it will be found under the plasma section.

    I tend to get carried away with enthusiasm when a subject close to my heart gets described, so I won't bore you with the infinite details, suffice to say that so far the unit has performed in a manner that blows my socks off....LOL.....but at a cost of $A2,000, and I see that it is going for about the same in your neck of the woods.

    Straight up....it will do an awesome weld on practically any metal, and you don't need any special gas or special consumeables either....anything that will mate with whatever you're doing will do.

    I just welded a new end on my draw bar for my Ajax turret mill, the end thread had been stripped from previous overuse.

    I used a 7/16" UNF hi tensile bolt to repair the end ,as opposed to welding it up and recutting the thread, all very time consuming.

    There is no weld Vee preperation needed in the plasma welding method.....you are fusing by melting the joining zone edges together (gives you deep penetration) and adding a little bit of filler rod as needed to bring the weld level up.

    In the draw bar job I welded two different materials together, mild steel and hi tensile steel.

    The beauty of the plasma butt weld is that you DO NOT GET DISTORTION as when you use stick or Mig, probably Tig too as it's a similar method, except with Tig you can't get the depth of penetration like the plasma can, and you don't need to clamp the job to stop it bending with the weld.

    This is starting to get to be a long essay, so I'll leave it to whomsoever want to pose questions and ask for any photos that I've made so far.

    BTW, I got better at the alluminium welding once I bought some powder flux and messed around a bit.

    Long story short.....you MUST get a hands on demo if'n you're interested in getting one....the process is a learning curve from word go......no more gas bottles ever!
    Ian.

  6. #56
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    Hi Ian... I think you ment Weldtalk.com for that thread.

    Thanks for popping in here and adding some information.

    Soutthpaw.... If you're going to have company(killdozerd11) on your next trip to try this unit out how about one of you guys bringing a camera to take some 'after' shots....During is good too.

    You might mention to them that they would get a better response on this machine if they got some good videos or pictures of this machine in operation..... The factory ones are pretty lame.

    Hope you guys have fun playing around with this next week... I'd think it would be an interesting day out... doing something a little outside the box ,but still welding related.

    Good Luck & Thanks for sharing this with the rest of us.

  7. #57
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    OOOps....weldtalk.com it is......oldtimers kicking in....LOL.

    Yes a camera for test shots works well, no arc light to mess up the CCD in the camera.....on camera flash works well too.

    Anyone going for a demo....be prepared equipment wise....things like don't try a welding helmet with self darkening LCD shield glass....ther's no arc light enough to make it dark down and you only need a dark glass of #5 not a regular welding helmet type of #10....but you do need the full face shield due to some sparks that get thrown up and although a pair of brazing specs are OK they won't shield you from the sparks.

    I use a full face grinding shield but with the clear plexiglass replaced with a darker one....works brill, and you can wear your specs behind without snagging them on the shield.

    Also, and extremly important....don't hold the filler rod in your bare hand, or you'll risk getting zapped by the high frequency in Mode 2....use a glove at all times and the earthed electrode holder.

    I've found out that the alluminium weld needs to be done quickly....too much dwelling on one spot and the whole lot melts through or gets daggy, especially if'n you hold the torch too far away from the job, thereby exposing the weld area to a much broader heat source, whereas you need a high heat pin point heat right on the spot.

    BTW, I'm using plain methylated spirits with the water for welding, and as that's wood alcohol and not Iso Propyl alcohol there may be a variation in results.....but what the heck....the other guy was using some of his favourite Bourbon too for a test, so trial and see is the way to go.

    Oh yes I forgot....take some cast iron along too.....an exhaust manifold would do....I used an old bottom half of a die set with the tooling removed and welded the holes up firstly using a 1/4"diam pure cast iron stick as filler and then just a plain steel 3.5mm welding rod with the flux removed.

    The iron rod got a bit porous in the weld area as I took the torch away too quickly and the weld bubbled up and chilled to rock hardness, same for the steel weld on the iron which went much better and showed no porosity.

    With iron you really need to preheat to a fairly hot temperature and allow to cool slowly or it'll chill out at the end, but for a regular job a chalk box solves that problem.
    Ian.
    Last edited by puddytat; 07-21-2011 at 09:02 AM.

  8. #58
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    I am interested to know what settings, techniques, mode amount of voltage etc. you are using for doing aluminum. thickness of the aluminum you are welding? what are you using for flux? I am hoping to spend some more time on the aluminum and see if i get better results.... I took my plasma cutting face shield which is shade 5... can stick camera behind it too.
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  9. #59
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    it's been over 2 weeks and you still havent got information on consumables?

  10. #60
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    Yeah, that's a worry, but it won't go away. "They" make the bits and pieces initially to make the products, so eventually the replaceable bits will come on stream.....at least that's the logical explanation, so I'll hound the supplier 'till he comes across.

    The settings for alluminium are not all that clear from the tests I did, not like a regular Tig set-up where you have a variable foot control and like a car accelerator pump the pedal to control the power at the torch tip as the work progresses.

    I did a few pieces of 1" square alluminium tube and used the setting mode 1 #4 for want of something better to start with........first tests were much of a trial and error method.....feeling my way by observation.....any form of preheat is to be avoided with ally.

    You need to have pin point heat at the start of the weld zone, whereas I held the torch nozzle back a bit and got "beautifull" melting all round...LOL.....so I would advocate getting in close and quick with the lower setting and lay the filler rod on the joint which will melt in as you go.....cleaning prior to welding is a must.....and flux too, the powder type applied to the filler rod by heating it.

    You'll find the alluminium tends to soak up the heat and this is a problem because you have bags of it, and the tendency is to melt the whole area around the joint before the weld pool establishes.....thin material NEEDS a copper back up to prevent runaway heat build up....same goes for welding thin steel sheet...about 2mm thick stuff.

    BTW, in comparison to Oxy/acetylene I would envisage this set-up in the portable mode where you could have a truck based generator power supply and 100 metres of power cable to get to the job, but you wouldn't want 100 metres of Oxy/acetylene piping to do the same job, and carrying bottles around, even the small, ones is a pain, they always tend to run out of gas too soon.

    Weighing just 20 lb for the bag and all the bits and pieces makes it very portable, and the unit by itself is lighter again.

    I reckon I could use it as the heat source to make a small furnace to melt a pot of ally or even copper or brass, to do a few castings....but that's further down the line.....gotta learn to walk first.
    Ian.

  11. #61
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    OK, hot from the press five mins ago......the consumeables are:-
    Copper nozzle....about $16.00
    Cathode (copper inside bit)....about $8.50
    Quartz tube.....$4.50
    Cathode assembly(inside bit with brass pieces and copper tip)....$66.00
    Complete kit in plastic box with all spare parts as supplied with unit.....$150.00

    These prices are as quoted by my supplier in OZ and could be more or less in other places, and could also vary when the exact replacements start to be sold on a regular basis......but OK for starters.

    I might have a thought at making a press tool to form the copper nozzles from a copper disc blank as they are quoted to last for about 10 hours, and this would apply mainly to the welding nozzles with the 2.3mm hole, as the cutting nozzles with the 1.2mm hole can be redrilled out to reclaim them for use as welding nozzles.

    Early days yet, but the most important piece which would be very difficult to make is the internal copper tip, the cathode, with that strange unknown metal insert, so it's green for go.
    Ian.

  12. #62
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    I will be going Monday or Tuesday next week for the day to play with it. Ill find out then. Kildozered11. Let me know if u r still on and which day is best for u.
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  13. #63
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    Here's my latest "success" with the Multiplaz.....for me at any rate, and a few pics to show what I'm chuffed about..

    I have always, without exception, fallen down when doing welds in the corner of a 90 deg interface.

    Using Stick or Mig, I usually get blobs of weld sticking to one face or the other when welding into a corner, and I've ground out more welds because they had blobby appearances than I can remember.

    Using tig, which is costly just for most general purposes is like using a scalpel to carve a piece of roast meat for dinner, I can get pretty filleted welds but oh so slowly.

    So, I had to do a simple job the other day to attach a TV aerial mast with two brackets to the side of my carport, and due to the gutter overhang, it had to have 75mm of stand off.

    I dug out a piece of old rusty 5mm thick steel 75mm wide and cut it up to make two brackets, welded together to make two at 90 deg each.

    First of all the mode #1 on the Multiplaz was used with the #4 setting, and when after five minutes of the torch cutting out and overheating I was tempted to leave the unit out side for someone to steal it and do me a favour....yeah it got that bad.

    It barely melted the joint area, even though the joint area got to a red heat for 1/2" either side of the joint, and using a 2.5mm filler rod just didn't work.

    In great despair at the performance of my wonderfull new $2,000 door stopper/boat anchor, I decided to go to mode 2 and a setting of #4...... the mode 2 is with a direct arc to job type with attached earth lead, similar to but not the same as for a Tig torch......HEY HEY.....it practically took off.....weld pool on steroids....instant puddle.

    The weld took about 10 seconds to traverse 75mm across the plate, and the results are, in my opinion, the answer to a maidens prayer.

    It very rapidly melted both corners of the joint and I had to add filler as fast as it could be fed.

    It chewed through the 2.5mm filler rod so quick and I then used a 3.5mm rod....(welding rod with flux removed).

    For me this was a very valuable lesson learned..... at the coal face too, and I now know that the unit has the balls to do the job, and it's only my lack of expertise that held me down.

    To sum up, the mode 1 setting is ideal where you want a broad spread of heat, like in brazing and silver soldering and heating etc, but for serious welding..... Mode 2 is the choice and it'll melt the joint almost instantly without the bird sh!t on barbed wire results I used to get when stick welding other 90 degree corner joints as before.

    In the mode 2 you have to attach an earth lead to the job, and when you fire up the torch and get it stabilised, you bring the nozzle close to the job and a spike of pure energy 1/2" long leaps from the nozzle to the job and all hell breaks loose.....literally......almost instant melting where the blue arc touches down, and you have to move quickly and add the filler or you'll melt through to the other side.

    It took about 10 seconds to traverse the 75mm wide joint, and without a blobbly finish.

    In the last photo I have laid the two brackets back to back to show that there is no distortion at the weld zone, maybe a teensy weensy bit of deviation from flat, but I was powering along at full throttle, and I probably could have turned the heat down a bit, but I was so wowed by the sheer ease it took to do the joint I didn't bother to adjust the settings lower.

    They say in the booklet that it doesn't matter how thick the steel is, you just go slower if'n you want to weld deeper.

    The fact that NO cleaning of the rusty metal was attempted, made the ability to just go in and weld without messing around veeing the joint or descaling it, and the results speak for themselves.....perhaps perfectionists would fault the weld in appearance, but it'll never fail in it's application.

    I think I've covered all the welding capabilities I'll come across, and it only needs Ally and stainless to make my day once I get them to behave.

    I'm interested to hear how Southpaw and co got on at their demo sessions, but as it's a stressfull situation being away from your own shop, the most you can expect is to get to handle the unit and see for nothing how it works....the rest is in the application of those that are in possesion.
    Ian.
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  14. #64
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    Dang Son... Looks like it was getting pretty hot.. it was barely starting to undercut a bit.

    I'm glad you got the doorstop sorted out and are feeling a little better toward it...LOL

    I think you're getting the hang of it from the looks of those parts you fabricated.

    Haven't noticed any feedback on the L.A. excursion this week or if it even happened.

    Let us know when you get the aluminum sorted out...SS is probably a bit more difficult than plain steel,but the lack of warpage might be a real plus if it holds true on SS too.

    Thanks Ian...... You can enjoy some of that great Aussie beer that we just wish we had..

  15. #65
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    Hi Muddy, I did get some undercutting, mostly from when I started with a 2.5mm welding rod....it started to consume so quick and I tried to "economise' on the feed rate at the end of the weld run.....poor fool me, the weld pool just got deeper along the sides and would have melted the sides into a deep groove.......lesson......use a thick welding rod/consumeable and feed as you need, the weld pool is so very easy to achieve, almost like having a stick of butter....LOL.

    I've had a Tig outfit for a number of years, and used it on and off for various jobs, mostly for when I want to do thin square tubing, but for general welding I found it's too costly, apart from being slow and lacking penetration, also in having a gas bottle on hire, and the general wear and tear of the nose caps, and maintaining the tungstens various etc, so now I'm going to concentrate on the Multiplaz settings to get the weld without burning through.....it's mostly a case of quick and steady without hesitating on one spot for too long.

    I hope to hear from the other guys and their impressions of the unit.....one swallow doesn't make a Summer, and what suits me might be totally alien to someone who has different criteria.

    I would be honest to say that at the demo I was a bit dissapointed with the results I "achieved", but in the one weld on the 1/2" plate I suddenly saw the potential and decided that there was a huge advantage to being able to plug in and fire away with power to spare.

    I used to make long extension drill bits for drilling deep holes, and the method was to make a joint with the ends spigoted into each other and brazed....no more....the next drill I do will be butt welded.

    I also want to have a go at butt welding HSS for making lathe tools with butt welded ends, maybe a set of wood turning chisels too with HSS ends etc....the list goes on.

    I have a lot of broken HSS slotting saw blades that my previous employer threw out when they broke, and I "reclaimed" from the scrap bin to make wood boring drills.
    Ian.

  16. #66
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    Hi,I just joined this forum to get an opnion on the Multiplaz3500 from someone who's actually used one.The only info I've been able to get seems to come directly from the company.I've watched their videos and see a lot of welding,but not many finished welds.Apparently this thing will puddle cast iron in seconds,cut glass,ceramic,basically anything you point it at.Most of what I do is hf tig or stick.Got some wirefeeders,don't seem to use them much.If anybody has an opinion,good or bad,I'd appreciate it.New to this,not even sure I'm in the right place.Thanks,panhead201

  17. #67
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    If possible some bend test coupons would be informative.

  18. #68
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    Hi Farmall, what's a coupon look like, I mean the actual dimensions of the metal pieces and also the radius for the bend test......I might give it a go just to see how the weld area stands a bit of stress.
    Ian.

  19. #69
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    This fellow took good pics of the process:

    http://www.gowelding.org/3G_FCAW_Wel...ification.html

    Since you are a machinist you have an advantage in making a personal bend test rig to monitor your skill! Don't forget to post pics.

    The pic shows the principle, and you can figure out what works for your press.

    This thread has some info and a drawing:

    http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...ht=bend+tester
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  20. #70
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    I might take a look at this in 20-25 years. To me its kinda in the same place that flux core was in 1978...does this process have potential.?? DAMN straight .. but you can imagine the push back from the Gas companies: Linde, Air Liquide, Praxair & AirGas or even Hypertherm.! Watch that one of them dont go after MultiPlaz and buy em out.

    theo
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    My curiosity is how welds made with the process perform under destructive and non-destructive testing.

    That will show how capable the process really is in terms of replacing other processes. No need to "wait 20 or 25 years".

    SCIENCE will prove what it can and cannot do. Since we have some very experienced weld inspectors on these forums, they might suggest proper test methods or even perform some testing on coupons sent to them.

    Inspectors, what do you think?

  22. #72
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    Hi Farmall, re post #69, according to the test results ALL welds on mild steel done on a cold day will be a failure......you aren't serious, surely not?

    Suppose you did a job on a piece of sensitive structure, on a cold day, and it subsequently failed and someone got the chop......despite the fact that the item in question broke adjacent to the weld...could you then be sued for "negligence", or would the manufacturer of the structure be sued instead.

    Of course we are overlooking one thing....when you weld a structural item, or for that matter any item requiring welding by whatever means available and the daytime temperature was borderline, or the wind just happened to start blowing, you don't subsequently go and bend the living sh!ts out of the job just to see if'n it was OK......you'd be certified if you did.

    The bend test is to certify your ability, purely and simply, for trade recognition, to ensure that at a certain daytime temperature and without any wind blowing, you were at that moment in time able to weld a piece of steel of unknown material content, but assumed to be mild steel, so that it could be bent back on itself without the weld breaking, even if'n the piece of material itself failed during the test.

    This is like stating that due to the fact you could not satisfy your girlfriend's needs, your wife could sue you for being potentially inadequate in the bedroom mode, even if'n you were not with her at the time, as this is an indication of your lack of ability should the need arise ....LOL.
    Ian.

  23. #73
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    On the subject of weld strength testing, a manufacturer of wood working glue proudly stated that the wood would fail before his patented glue in a joint would......does this mean as a carpenter you'd fail a trade test if the joint you made held but the wood surrounding it failed?

    I would have thought that a tensile strength test would be the real weld strength test to indicate your ability to penetrate into the parent metal and not merely fill the gap with metal so forming three layers of metal, but not one going deeper than the surface.

    Mild steel has a tensile strength of 27 tons per sq in, so if'n the tensile test held a joint, (with a cross sectional area of 1 sq inch), together until the 27 tons were exceeded or the material itself failed, I would have thought you would have equaled the material strength as a joining medium by welding, and your own ability as a welder to produce such a joint.

    BTW, I have ALWAYS heated steel up with a torch before attempting to bend it......to do so cold is inviting a series of cracks to occur on the outside of the bend, and as an apprentice this was taught to me as a requirement for bending steel, especially the bright cold rolled stuff.

    If'n the Multiplaz failed to produce a tensile weld strength test that equaled the material strength, I would have to examine my welding methods before automatically dumping the gear in the nearest dumpmaster.
    Ian.
    Last edited by puddytat; 12-14-2011 at 07:54 PM. Reason: it suddenly occured to me.

  24. #74
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    I've never seen a bend test done with heat applied to the joint or material.. All i've ever been involved with is semi wheel testing though, so my experience is limited.

    I have a question, how much air pressure is used during the welding process with this multiplaz thing?
    All the videos that I've seen of this thing, It looks like there is air being injected towards or around the weld puddle.. It looks like air pressure is pushing the weld puddle around in several instances.

  25. #75
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
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    Melbourne, Australia.
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    Hi Brucer....no air, it's the steam from the water/alcohol mix that is converted to plasma and compresses the arc inside the torch to form the heat source on the job.

    That's why it's so portable....just the power unit and a hand held torch, weighs 20 lb in the bag total outfit....water content in the torch lasts for 10 to 15 mins continuous.

    That is also the reason why they advocate cooling the torch down between welds to prevent the steam blowing off and wasting the internal water/alcohol supply content.

    BTW, in the bend test posted by Farmall earlier in post #69 the coupon is bent cold round the upper mandrel by forcing it between two lower rounded mandrels, and tests the ability of the welder to make a sound welded joint.

    It was noted in the test that due to the cooling that occured from outside sources a certain degree of hardness occured in the test piece which led to the test piece cracking alongside the weld, so failing the welder.

    I can not see the validity of this test per se, as the condition that occurs in a structure in the open on a cold day with the wind blowing far exceeds the sterile test conditions as laid down by the test procedure, so the ability of the welder is not really being tested if'n the joint failed due to outside conditions, and also not actually in the welded zone itself.

    There are a number of other plasma welders on the market too, all at various prices, but they use two or more gases to form the plasma and shielding gas, whereas the Multiplaz only uses water/alcohol for welding and plain tap water for cutting.
    Ian.
    Last edited by puddytat; 12-14-2011 at 09:37 PM.

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