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Thread: check this out a welder that uses water

  1. #76
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    there is some kind of pressure (plasma or forced air) coming out of the nozzle on the multiplaz, from the videos it looks like the plasma coming out of the nozzle has a certain amount of pressure and its pushing the weld puddle around..

  2. #77
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    Hi, anything comimg out of the nozzle is water related, IE steam and alcohol vapour at 8,000 deg C, and is at about a couple of PSI, not much but enough to concentrate the arc and send a stream of hot gases out the end.

    In mode #1 only setting you would be using a heating type of operation like brazing, silver soldering or heating a piece of metal, whereas in a Mode #2 setting you also have Mode #1 set at about 2 to produce the plasma shielding gas and the Mode 2 set at whatever your welding needs are.....there's 1 to 4 settings for power on each of the modes.

    Mode #2 is with an earth wire attached to the job, and you get a direct arc to the job like as in a Tig welder, but like the Tig is on Steroids....pretty powerful and fast.....you also have the Mode #1 set at 2 to give you the plasma shielding gas for welding.

    Mode #1 is hopeless for any welding as the heat is similiar to a large oxy/acetylene torch, but 10 times hotter and just melts the area in a large puddle, uncontrollable melting.

    I haven't done any cutting yet, but at the demo it was the same as a regular plasma torch, again pretty powerfull.

    The beauty of the device is there's no arc flash to worry about, it's all in the torch nozzle, what you see is the high temperature Infra red rays from the melting metal and for that you need dark glasses at about #5 shade......1/2 that for arc welding....you won't get a sun tan from being exposed to a plasma flame, no UV, but you'll get sore eyes from the bright glare of the white hot melt pool.
    Ian.

  3. #78
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    You obviously have not used a good Plasma cutter or TIG welder. I spent the day demoing the Multiplaz at their US HQ office, it doesn't even come close to either a Plasma or TIG. If it had more power then I think it could do quite well. as it stands now its only good for thin materials... I would say its much more like an OA setup on Prozac or Valium

    By the way, those welds you posted on the previous page look terrible..

    Quote Originally Posted by puddytat View Post
    Hi, anything comimg out of the nozzle is water related, IE steam and alcohol vapour at 8,000 deg C, and is at about a couple of PSI, not much but enough to concentrate the arc and send a stream of hot gases out the end.

    In mode #1 only setting you would be using a heating type of operation like brazing, silver soldering or heating a piece of metal, whereas in a Mode #2 setting you also have Mode #1 set at about 2 to produce the plasma shielding gas and the Mode 2 set at whatever your welding needs are.....there's 1 to 4 settings for power on each of the modes.

    Mode #2 is with an earth wire attached to the job, and you get a direct arc to the job like as in a Tig welder, but like the Tig is on Steroids....pretty powerful and fast.....you also have the Mode #1 set at 2 to give you the plasma shielding gas for welding.

    Mode #1 is hopeless for any welding as the heat is similiar to a large oxy/acetylene torch, but 10 times hotter and just melts the area in a large puddle, uncontrollable melting.

    I haven't done any cutting yet, but at the demo it was the same as a regular plasma torch, again pretty powerfull.

    The beauty of the device is there's no arc flash to worry about, it's all in the torch nozzle, what you see is the high temperature Infra red rays from the melting metal and for that you need dark glasses at about #5 shade......1/2 that for arc welding....you won't get a sun tan from being exposed to a plasma flame, no UV, but you'll get sore eyes from the bright glare of the white hot melt pool.
    Ian.
    Last edited by soutthpaw; 12-15-2011 at 10:17 AM.
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  4. #79
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    I'm sorry to say that the machine needs a lot of work yet
    in my opinion
    Backed my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me

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  5. #80
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    Hey Killdozerd11 how is it going?? hope u are doing well. I think ya need to add the smart car to your sig after the rusty truck.
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  6. #81
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    Hey DJ

    been sick for a couple of days .I want to finish my welding bench but my hands are not steady enough to weld

    The smart car is jaime's car i still don't think much of it
    maybe i could use it as a rod holder.LOL
    Backed my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me

    What would SATAN do ??


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  7. #82
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    Quote Originally Posted by killdozerd11 View Post
    Hey DJ

    been sick for a couple of days .I want to finish my welding bench but my hands are not steady enough to weld

    The smart car is jaime's car i still don't think much of it
    maybe i could use it as a rod holder.LOL
    maybe that was his smart with the trailer hitch on it in a recent thread about them. get well soon. I have been on the lookout for a nice welding bench too but pickings have be slim since summer...
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  8. #83
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    Yeah, Yeah, Southpaw, welds are not supposed to LOOK pretty, but if'n you could break the one that I welded on the 3/8" plate I welded, all the way through, you'd have to be Superman....perhaps you are....anyway, I already have a Tig torch and a 200 amp welder supply, and I'd have to say that it's soon going to be sold.....no use for it now.

    I wouldn't say it's only good for thin steel plate, cos for thin stuff you have to turn it right down and use a backing plate to prevent blowing holes through the weld zone.......but it can weld thin square tubing , 25mm sq X 1mm wall for frames etc without blowing holes in them....needs a bit of practice....the thicker stuff can be done with one hand in your pocket.

    One thing that escapes a lot of people who criticise it....in all the videos on the Multiplaz webb site, not one of them clamps the material down or vees out the weld zone....there's no distortion as the weld progresses, either bending up or opening up of the seam....check the video and you'll see what I mean.

    The weld seam melts and fuses together without the sudden expansion thrust you get from a stick weld or mig application, and this goes for some pretty thick stuff too....1/2" thick plate is not a problem.

    Incidently, if'n you compared the Tig's welding capacity to the Multiplaz you would have to realise that no tig without water cooling could ever approach the capacity of the Multiplaz to do a tig type weld ever, and that includes the ability to weld 24/7 without running out of oomph or getting hot under the collar......the consumeable for the Tig would cost you an arm and a leg by comparison anyway.

    I will freely admit that there is no such thing as an expert, jack of all trades, do all tool that you could in one instance go and weld a razor blade to another one or weld up a hole in a Coke can, and then go and weld a beam back onto the Brooklyn bridge.....unless of course you have a Tig torch that can do all of that.

    One thing I will state and that is, someone with no skill whatsoever can take the Multiplaz and after 1/2 hours use, produce a weld that would defy breaking, and look fairly presentable too.

    It's just a handy tool....not everyone's cup of tea...but very usefull.
    Ian.
    Last edited by puddytat; 12-16-2011 at 07:40 AM.

  9. #84
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    Quote Originally Posted by puddytat View Post
    Yeah, Yeah, Southpaw, welds are not supposed to LOOK pretty, but if'n you could break the one that I welded on the 3/8" plate I welded, all the way through, you'd have to be Superman....perhaps you are....anyway, I already have a Tig torch and a 200 amp welder supply, and I'd have to say that it's soon going to be sold.....no use for it now.

    I wouldn't say it's only good for thin steel plate, cos for thin stuff you have to turn it right down and use a backing plate to prevent blowing holes through the weld zone.......but it can weld thin square tubing , 25mm sq X 1mm wall for frames etc without blowing holes in them....needs a bit of practice....the thicker stuff can be done with one hand in your pocket.

    One thing that escapes a lot of people who criticise it....in all the videos on the Multiplaz webb site, not one of them clamps the material down or vees out the weld zone....there's no distortion as the weld progresses, either bending up or opening up of the seam....check the video and you'll see what I mean.

    The weld seam melts and fuses together without the sudden expansion thrust you get from a stick weld or mig application, and this goes for some pretty thick stuff too....1/2" thick plate is not a problem.

    Incidently, if'n you compared the Tig's welding capacity to the Multiplaz you would have to realise that no tig without water cooling could ever approach the capacity of the Multiplaz to do a tig type weld ever, and that includes the ability to weld 24/7 without running out of oomph or getting hot under the collar......the consumeable for the Tig would cost you an arm and a leg by comparison anyway.

    I will freely admit that there is no such thing as an expert, jack of all trades, do all tool that you could in one instance go and weld a razor blade to another one or weld up a hole in a Coke can, and then go and weld a beam back onto the Brooklyn bridge.....unless of course you have a Tig torch that can do all of that.

    One thing I will state and that is, someone with no skill whatsoever can take the Multiplaz and after 1/2 hours use, produce a weld that would defy breaking, and look fairly presentable too.

    It's just a handy tool....not everyone's cup of tea...but very usefull.
    Ian.
    I think both Killdozerd11 and I will agree to disagree with you on this. we both spent a day demoing this welder and seeing their Tech person show us how to use it and both came away with the same opinion which we have already stated.
    But if you need to justify spending $2000 on this tool, you go right ahead and do it...

    There is no way you could put out welds looking like that and expect to make money from welding that looked like that either.
    Last edited by soutthpaw; 12-16-2011 at 09:44 AM.
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  10. #85
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    Heh Heh, that's one thing I don't have to worry about...justifying the expense.....I'm not into using it for making money, although the other day a guy asked me to do a job for him and slipped me $20 for a slab of beer,,,,,I don't drink so I'll probably have a cup of tea now and again.

    I think I've got enough experience now with the "thing" to know what it can and can't do,

    As soon as I can do it, I'm gonna get two pieces of 1/2" plate, the black stuff, covered in mill scale, no weld prep, straight into the metal, and do a weld to show better what it's capable of.....no mincing about with teensy weensy bits of 2mm plate, that's for the weekenders who want to fill holes in their rusted car bodies and don't know where to start.

    I would have to say one thing, compared to stick welding, it's streets ahead in the sheer ease it works, but then maybe that's just me.

    I still have to work on the settings to get the amps down for the fine fiddly jobs that need finesse more like embroidary.

    I'll post some more pics as soon as I do something significent.
    Ian.

  11. #86
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    why would you not prep the plate before you weld it? do you want to contaminate the weld area on purpose?

    The only videos i've seen of this thing the weld puddle looked like it was getting blown around and inconsistent..

    like pointing a torch at the puddle.

  12. #87
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    Hi Brucer, by prep I mean not veeing out the seam, or removing the scale, rust whatever.....but oil or grease yes I'd clean that up, but actually on a piece I did for a mate the oil was already burnt on and the torch just cremated it and the residue blew away.

    In conventional welding with Stick or Mig, you have to vee out the seam otherwise you'd get a big bead of metal sitting on top of the seam.......you don't get anymore penetration into the actual parent metal.

    That is into the sides of the veed out seam....you just get to the bottom of the seam and then you have to go and fill the veed out area with weld just to bring it level with the top......most times you have to do 2 or 3 runs just to even out the heat imput all along the seam, otherwise you'd get a massive expansion in the plate at the seam and this leads to cracking of the actual weld.

    Here's a bit of truth.....the ordinary welding rod will melt at a certain rate and if'n you exceed the amperage to get deeper penetration you get an increase in the melt rate of the rod and so a big build up in the weld area, but no increase in the DEPTH of the weld penetration, and this occurs on either side of the veed out area.....what gets deposited into the middle of the weld is just filler and what you actually have is three pieces of metal, joined together at the weld zone, but not a homogenous joint.

    Here's a test you can do, butt 2 pieces of 3/8" plate together without veeing out the seam....then lay a bead of weld directly on top of the seam......you won't go very deep, not at the recomended weld current for the rod size....and if'n you up the current you get a faster rod melt and a bigger bead ON TOP OF THE SEAM, but no depth, ,the rod can't hold back on it's melting just because you up the current......also the depth of penetration into the seam is restricted due to the rapid cooling that occurs when the sides of the plate absorb most of the heat before it becomes molten and combines with the rod metal.

    You need special high penetration rods to go deep and this means a different metalogical mix in the weld seam....not very condusive to a strong joint.

    The Multiplaz does a complete weld with only the parent metal as the main weld melt, and some filler to bring the level up, almost a homogenous joint, and a deep penetration too.....also totally no chance of flux inclusions ever.
    Ian.

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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    Hi, forgot the original question, re the weld puddle being blown about...it doesn't appear to be an issue I have found to happen or that I actually noticed happening.

    The weld rate happens pretty quickly, and I'm concentrating on getting the seam to melt evenly while at the same time trying to add the filler without making big blobs that have to be melted in.

    I noticed in one of the videos from MPZ that the guy actually laid the rod onto the seam, quite a thick rod, probably about 6mm (1/4") thick and this seems to be the right proportion of melt material you'd want to add as the weld progresses without making blobby puddles due to waggling the rod about, but at the same time you are steadying the filler rod and can pull it back along the seam as it melts.

    I can say for a fact that if'n you used a thin rod, say a stripped of flux 2.5mm rod, you would only get a couple of inches along the seam before you have to stop and mount a new rod, it does tend to melt the stuff quickly......anyway, when you want to do a seriously heavy weld the weld zone becomes quite big, about a 9mm wide puddle and you have to control the amount of metal you are adding without building up a big blob, the slower you go the deeper and wider you get.

    I've toyed with the idea of making a wire feeder to feed Mig wire through a tube and a foot control to feed the wire, this way I can get at least a good 15 min run without having to reload a filler rod or have a long filler rod waving about, but for most jobs I don't actually do that long a weld run.
    Ian.
    Last edited by puddytat; 12-17-2011 at 04:42 AM.

  14. #89
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    Steam plasma has been around awhile.. someone made a portable one, great.

    There are some interesting articles if you Google on how on the high power (30KW) versions they use a low flow of argon as a shielding gas to ~prevent consumable erosion with great success.

    OK, no ones going to be welding sheetmetal with it.

    Is it a viable substitute for a OA and/or plasma cutting setup?

    The wire feeder might make it a viable welder, curious how that turns out.
    Might be usable for plasma spray coating/welding/surfacing as well?
    Last edited by waferhead; 02-16-2012 at 12:04 AM.
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    The bend test demonstrates not just weldor ability, but suitability of the weld process. A properly prepared coupon (no nicks or stress raisers) won't fail outside the weld, and a proper weld won't fail the test.

    Bend tests offer instant feedback and aren't subjective. Industry experts know more through decades of SCIENTIFIC testing than mere hobbyists infatuated with a new toy. (Toys are totally cool, but bring SCIENCE or there is nothing to stand on.)

    If a process is suitable for production work it can produce results which pass appropriate AWS standard testing. I'm not a CWI and defer to them on the subject of which test regime would be best for the process.

    Inspectors, suggest some appropriate tests for this system?

  16. #91
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    I agree that this welder is not a jack of all trades type thing, but I would pit any weld it could do against any weld that can be done without fear of the joint failing at the weld zone, which is what it's all about.

    There is also a complete absence of weld splatter.....one of the things I got to seriously hate about my Mig....small blobs of metal that went up in the air and down your neck.....had to wear one of those leather welding caps as well as the long leather arm guards too, to match the leather apron to prevent the front of my overall burning into holes, yeah and the welding helmet I bought too with the LCD lens that shuts down when the arc fires.

    Now all I do is put on a regular full face grinding shield, but with a #5 dark plastic shield in front instead of the clear one, and I'll NEVER get an arc flash ever again using this outfit.

    Where else couuld you weld all day if necessary without watching the Argon gauge windind down...no gas.

    Apart from the fact that I can weld inside the workshop with the door down all day long and not get toxic fumes as in a normal weld set-up is great in Winter.....the only stuff coming out of the torch is water vapour and an arc flame.

    So far I've managed to get the power down to weld thin tubing, the 1mm wall stuff without blowing holes in it, so I'm gettying there, ready for the day soon when I put all my other gear on Ebay and get a return on my previous investment.

    Without going on too much, I'd have to say that the sheer freedom to go down the garden with only an extension cable for the power and weld the hinge back on my gate is childs play it's so portable.

    Unless you actually get to really put it through it's paces, the "toy" is lost on most people.
    Ian.
    Last edited by puddytat; 05-02-2012 at 01:34 PM.

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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    Go 4 it
    Backed my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me

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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    Unless you actually get to really put it through it's paces, the "toy" is lost on most people.
    "Paces" mean zilch unless they include standard AWS etc weld testing.

    http://www.gowelding.org/Pipe_Weldin...ification.html

    I've not heard anyone say they'd take a Multiplaz to their next x-ray pipeline or boiler job where their paycheck is on the line.

    I'm not knocking the gear, but proof is everything. Further, there is NO way to evaluate the quality of weld produced without testing or inspection! If you don't test and inspect your work, you can't know if it's properly done. Science trumps opinion, which is why welding inspection techniques were developed in the first place.

    By all means, buy one, many, or a hundred 'plaz and have a nut. Just don't expect support where demonstrated proof is lacking.

    If Multiplaz promoters are legit, let's see them roll up at the shop of one of the pros on this forum (I'm not at that level and freely admit it) and run some coupons using THEIR personnel to eliminate that variable too!

    That's a chance to SELL some gear. If this thing will weld a cats azz to a plate glass window, bring the cat, the window, and the system for a demo.

    I made the same suggestion to Magnegas a while back. Funny how when the chance to demo a product in a public forum comes up, some companies find reasons not to show.

  19. #94
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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    farmall, give up.

    Some of us have been asking the same questions on the Hobart site to no avail.
    Hobart mods have shut the thread down. 15 pages of BS.

    He doesnt see why he should have to prove anything. "you find one to test" is his answer. Bend tests he says prove nothing, then goes on about a car and some other BS.

    Here is the Hobart thread............

    http://www.hobartwelders.com/weldtal...ight=multiplaz

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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    I'm not posting to reach the original poster.

    I try to make sure everyone who ends up on such threads sees such posters USED as an EXAMPLE. Such posters aren't wired to know that's being done because they aren't self-aware, but anyone else considering spending money they may have to scrimp to save can read the threads and perhaps avoid being breech-loaded like a young athlete at Penn State.

  21. #96
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    Yeah I think he is still trying to justify wasting $2000 on this machine.

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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    I'm still curious if it could replace a OA setup, but it looks like the consumable support (and even basic support) is essentially non existant.

    Too bad.
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  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by waferhead View Post
    I'm still curious if it could replace a OA setup, but it looks like the consumable support (and even basic support) is essentially non existant.

    Too bad.
    No it won't. Pretty much max thickness is 3/8 inch at about 2" a minute.

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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    You are of course quite right, the Hobart website closed the MPZ thread suddenly.......guess they got the wind up that it was going to make inroads on their welding equipment, but as most of the stuff (at least 80%) promoted and reviewed on the Hobart forum is made in China, probably in the same factory with the same robotic assemblers the 'Plaz gets assembled with, that's a laugh in itself.

    I personally don't care if no-one buys one of these outfits, I merely posted the results of my hobby welding experience done in my garage workshop at home....retired now 10 years....for those who cannot make out what the MPZ website is spruiking.....lots of videos and detaoils in various languages.

    One thing's for sure, I'm an independent user, no vested interests etc.

    All you get from the MPZ site is the official blurb, but I'm posting the experience gained over the last year I have owned the 'Plaz.

    Here's the last project I did.......welding a 50mm square tube adaptor to the tow bar of my Toyota Rav4 to allow a Hayman Reese tow arm to be fitted.
    Ian.
    Attached Images Attached Images      

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    Re: check this out a welder that uses water

    To complete the job the end of the tube had a piece of square steel bar welded round the outside.

    This prevents the end of the tube from being deformed by minor abrasions and bumps.

    I welded the bar in a contiouous operation, gripping the end of the material with a vice grips and at the same time heating with the 'Plaz to forge it round the periphery of the square tub, finally at the end melting the excess material off and welding the joint closed.

    The final photo shows the tow bar assemble prior to final finishing.
    Ian.
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