Various attempts to join cast iron to mild steel plate

[storeman]

psa,
Zap's solution is looking better

"2 1/4-20 flathead allens per leg would suffice.

Drill and countersink the PLATE and just bolt them on.

...zap!"

And $360 by someone else (who would presumably back his work) is starting to sound pretty reasonable. That is unless you are undertaking all this pre-$ in hand effort for the learning experience and professional development. Nichol 55 price will be an eye opener.
Jerry

[ManoKai]

A slight oxidation flame (neutral is also fine) for BRAZING works well for joining mild steel to cast iron. However, an oxidized flame is not/not ideal for WELDING steel. To weld, go with an oxidizing flame.

Correction: the last semtence should have read ".....go with a neutral flame."

[psacustomcreations]

psa,
Zap's solution is looking better

"2 1/4-20 flathead allens per leg would suffice.

Drill and countersink the PLATE and just bolt them on.

...zap!"

And $360 by someone else (who would presumably back his work) is starting to sound pretty reasonable. That is unless you are undertaking all this pre-$ in hand effort for the learning experience and professional development. Nichol 55 price will be an eye opener.
Jerry

When the customer bought these legs he did not pay attention to the pics and did not realize the ears stuck in the shape they did.

The rest of it is pretty simple, I screwed up. I will approach the guy and tell him I will buy another set of legs and we can figure out a better approach. I have already checked and there are other legs on Ebay with a flat top that would be easy to bolt right on the barrel as per my initial suggestion and Zap's suggestion. Am I losing money, yes.

I agree that Zap's suggestion would have been better. That was also my initial suggestion when I was first approached. We had two or three different ways to bolt the existing legs to the bottom of the barrel. The customer did not want that look and having the barrel raised up that much.

I have already ordered one pound each of Blue Demon 1/16" and 3/32" NI55 tig rods as well as 3/32" NI99 rods. Between those and the 308 MIG wire last week it is a losing proposition. Since I do a lot of scrap metal work I can still use those filler materials in future projects.

I will use the NI55 rods and try to TIG braze the last ear using pre heat, post heat and multiple passes on both sides as per earlier suggestions. I kept that ear aside on purpose to attempt suggestions from this thread.

This is what I call an expensive learning experience. It happens sometimes and will happen again. Since I have made a good amount of money on this hobby this year it is minor ding in my profits.

[LGSP90]

Hi, the legs now look similar to legs on a brand of stoves we carry at our store. I don't know if you have enough flat mounting area left to mount them in the same way,but here is how the manufacter does it. the legs have two 1/4" holes drilled through the flat that fit over 1/4" pins mounted in the base of the stove. A plate is then position over the edge of the leg to hold the leg tight to the bottom and tacked to the bottom. This way you wouldn't need to weld to the cast as the welding is done on the steel bottom and the steel retainer plate.

Barry

[BD1]

I would weld the existing to the plate as a decorative look. Then fabricate a steel leg to be hidden within the fancy ones. This way the welded steel will do the job and the cast iron ones will be cosmetic. Might even get by with just bending 5/8 or 3/4 '' round.

[storeman]

When the customer bought these legs he did not pay attention to the pics and did not realize the ears stuck in the shape they did.

The rest of it is pretty simple, I screwed up. I will approach the guy and tell him I will buy another set of legs and we can figure out a better approach. I have already checked and there are other legs on Ebay with a flat top that would be easy to bolt right on the barrel as per my initial suggestion and Zap's suggestion. Am I losing money, yes.

I agree that Zap's suggestion would have been better. That was also my initial suggestion when I was first approached. We had two or three different ways to bolt the existing legs to the bottom of the barrel. The customer did not want that look and having the barrel raised up that much.

I have already ordered one pound each of Blue Demon 1/16" and 3/32" NI55 tig rods as well as 3/32" NI99 rods. Between those and the 308 MIG wire last week it is a losing proposition. Since I do a lot of scrap metal work I can still use those filler materials in future projects.

I will use the NI55 rods and try to TIG braze the last ear using pre heat, post heat and multiple passes on both sides as per earlier suggestions. I kept that ear aside on purpose to attempt suggestions from this thread.

This is what I call an expensive learning experience. It happens sometimes and will happen again. Since I have made a good amount of money on this hobby this year it is minor ding in my profits.

I could smell that result coming around the bend. Wasn't shaming you at all. Been down that road several times in previous business. Hang in there.
Jerry

[William McCormick]

I weld vises back together with Everdure straight polarity, and they break again in a new spot. But you have to fuse the base metal before you add the Everdure. It spatters, pops and hisses, and you would think it is going to be crap but it is rather amazing by actual testing. That Braze in your picture is way to cold in my opinion. I wait till the metal fuses then add in the Everdure just a touch, it sounds nasty. But wow does it hold. The brazing rod stinks as it boils, the room fills with poisonous smoke if you are doing it right, in my opinion.

Sincerely,

William McCormick

[William McCormick]

As BD1 mentioned making the cast iron ornamental, that is an excellent idea. Those legs even if mounted extremely well will just crack off even if the weld is 100 percent. A nice steel leg will bend, which might cause the ornamental cast iron leg to break, however it will not cause the table to fail.

Those pot belly stove legs are never mounted very well, there is always some give some play. A hammer and a soft swing can always cause massive failure to cast iron stove parts.

Sincerely,

William McCormick

[William McCormick]

When I use Everdure I get a hollow puddle as if I am welding with steel filler wire. I use 1/16" Everdure filler material.

Sincerely,

William McCormick

[OPUS FERRO]

psacustomcreations

As a general rule, novice welders 'don't think' fixturing first.
If your project - is in 'a re-start mode' - consider:

Rolling a .250" thick by X wide Flat Bar Ring - just smaller:

than the ID diameter of the barrel head and weld,
then weld mounting ears [with holes] to the ID of the ring,
that correspond to the OEM casting attachments - fixture,

and you are done.

The width of the FB ring, and barrel head recess - launders the
height [problem] of the OEM cast attachments.

The ring & ears, are steel to steel - steel to cast, is fixtured - and
height consideration is a free bonus of the rolled-ring width choice.

[These recommendations are based - without specifications - i.e.,
stability = height x center of mass x tipping toe/width of base].

Design - is always the first consideration - not how do I weld it?


Opus

[76GMC1500]

When you broke the silicon bronze braze did it pull iron with it or is the fracture face still gold colored? I really don't think you had fusion between the bronze and iron. Silicon bronze is the ideal way to make this joint. It's inexpensive, strong, and easy to work with.

[psacustomcreations]

When you broke the silicon bronze braze did it pull iron with it or is the fracture face still gold colored? I really don't think you had fusion between the bronze and iron. Silicon bronze is the ideal way to make this joint. It's inexpensive, strong, and easy to work with.

Here is a close up of the break in the silicon bronze. The left side in the pic is where I started and then the right is where I finished. On the first quarter of left side of the break the silicon bronze itself seems like it broke in half with some sibr remaining on each side. In the rest of the break, it looks like the cast iron is what broke.

Based off these pics, here are the follow up questions.
Should the break be in the middle of the sibr and does that indicate fusion on both sides? IE, is that good, bad, or what?
If the break occured as shown in the cast for 3/4 of braze, what does that indicate?

[psacustomcreations]

HT2,
When I was researching this on WW, I saw your recommendation in previous threads to use a carbide burr to skim and remove any contaminants. I planned on doing this but forgot to bring the die grinder and burrs home from work.


Storeman,
Thanks, not really shamed at all. I am willing to throw my mistakes out there and get hit for them so I can learn.

William,
I have not heard of Everdure so I will have to check that out. Thanks for the info

Manokai and HT2,
My OA brazing sucks even worse than my ability to SMAW so I will need a lot of practice before I attempt to use that technique for any projects. Since I obviously don't do this full time I try to limit the number of techniques I use so that suck less at the GTAW and GMAW and can devote more time to them.

LGSP90,
The legs originally looked like the slot in the ear is where a bolt went up into the base of the stove and clamped the leg in place. I assume the lip of the base rested on the top of the leg to help provide support. With the shape of a barrel, that is why I recommended the guy use legs with a flat top so that they can be mechanically attached and the have support in multiple directions.

BD1, Zap, Dennis, HT2, Opus
Here is one thought that maybe combines your ideas. The red line is a leg that supports the weight of the barrel. The black line is a bracket that the cast legs rest against. The white lines are screws that attach the cast legs to the real legs. The cast legs are just there for looks and no welding/brazing on them is involved. At this point I would prefer to just buy another set in the right shape and start over so I am spending less time on this.

I will talk to the guy this week and see what his thoughts are. We get along great so hopefully this event won't screw up the relationship.

[Weldordie]

If it were my problem, I think that I'd try to minimize the shear forces at the weld joint and keep the legs so they see (mostly) compression forces. I'd attach a rod to each leg like this:

Agreed... Suggest welding a tab to the end of the rods (or angle iron), and bolting the tab ends to the legs. I, recently, repaired broken legs on a cast iron bench by O/A brazing, and adding triangulation with steel angle iron. Suggest OP just watch a few YouTube video demonstrations of brazing, and after a few practice trials, braze away. I, also, suggest using bare brazing rods, and dipping into a can of flux when necessary. Coated brazing rods put unnecessary flux onto the joint. Flux is only necessary when rod is fed onto the heated surface of the iron, but is not needed when feeding rod into the puddle.

I have, recently, made a demo video of a braze repair of a large crack in a cast iron exhaust pipe, and will be happy to post it to YouTube, if OP thinks it would be of value. Just let me know.

[psacustomcreations]

Weldordie,
If you have a chance go ahead and post the video. I travel a few months out of the year and watch a good amount of videos during those periods.


Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[psacustomcreations]

psacustomcreations

As a general rule, novice welders 'don't think' fixturing first.
If your project - is in 'a re-start mode' - consider:

Rolling a .250" thick by X wide Flat Bar Ring - just smaller:

than the ID diameter of the barrel head and weld,
then weld mounting ears [with holes] to the ID of the ring,
that correspond to the OEM casting attachments - fixture,

and you are done.

The width of the FB ring, and barrel head recess - launders the
height [problem] of the OEM cast attachments.

The ring & ears, are steel to steel - steel to cast, is fixtured - and
height consideration is a free bonus of the rolled-ring width choice.

[These recommendations are based - without specifications - i.e.,
stability = height x center of mass x tipping toe/width of base].

Design - is always the first consideration - not how do I weld it?


Opus

Opus,
I did search and it seems that "design" is very important to you. Can you do me a favor and post some pics of projects you designed and then built? I might be able to learn something. You tend to comment on others builds, you don't post pics of anything you built.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Weldordie]

Weldordie,
If you have a chance go ahead and post the video. I travel a few months out of the year and watch a good amount of videos during those periods.


Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Okay, I'll upload video when I get a chance. In the meantime here are a few pics of another manifold repair. I preheated in the oven to 450º, and slow cooled in a box of kitty litter.

[psacustomcreations]

Thanks. One of my concerns is how that technique holds up to potential dynamic loads such as much situation. I dont know enough about it. If the barrel in my project is rocked or moved, how does OA brazing respond?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Fnord5]

Opus,
I did search and it seems that "design" is very important to you. Can you do me a favor and post some pics of projects you designed and then built? I might be able to learn something. You tend to comment on others builds, you don't post pics of anything you built.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Good luck with that. He won't post his work.

[Weldordie]

Thanks. One of my concerns is how that technique holds up to potential dynamic loads such as much situation. I dont know enough about it. If the barrel in my project is rocked or moved, how does OA brazing respond?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Instead of just one rod/angle iron going to the foot of each leg, you might consider adding two shorter rods between each foot and the plate, so as to further stabilize against both direct and lateral loads. Brazing should adequately meld the feet to the plate. You can only do so much with what you've got to deal with.

[HT2-4956]

psa,

I feel for you man. I've had some expensive lessons involving cast iron in the past myself. Even a simple repair on a broken cast iron part can end up taking way more time than most people would think it should.

[Weldordie]

Yup. Fortunately, I'm retired, so I take as much time as necessary to facilitate a repair. I, recently, repaired a broken cast aluminum housing that I had broken on my hedge trimmer. I could have spent $20 to replace the part, but instead, I made a fixture to hold the broken parts together, then bump tig welded a couple spots, removed the fixture, and finished with aluminum brazing rod. I've used the trimmer, and it stayed together. One of my favorite tools... I use it instead of a string trimmer, 'cause it just lays the grass and weeds over, without slinging green everywhere.

[HT2-4956]

Okay, I'll upload video when I get a chance. In the meantime here are a few pics of another manifold repair. I preheated in the oven to 450º, and slow cooled in a box of kitty litter.

Weldordie,

Using a grinder to make a prep for brazing like you did on that manifold is going to come back and bite you on the a$$ some day. In a lot of places you don't have any where close to a full thickness of prep. Do yourself a favor and get a die grinder and ball ended carbide burr. For one thing, on complex geometry like that it'll let you cut a nice clean groove exactly where you need it with out having to remove unnecessary metal where you don't need to. I've also got to say that it looks like it was done way to cold.





Edit:

450 F. was no where near enough preheat on that manifold before starting to braze. I'd have used a rosebud and gotten it up to around 900 F. before starting.

[Weldordie]

[QUOTE=HT2-4956;7902051]Weldordie,

Using a grinder to make a prep for brazing like you did on that manifold is going to come back and bite you on the a$$ some day. In a lot of places you don't have any where close to a full thickness of prep. Do yourself a favor and get a die grinder and ball ended carbide burr. For one thing, on complex geometry like that it'll let you cut a nice clean groove exactly where you need it with out having to remove unnecessary metal where you don't need to. I've also got to say that it looks like it was done way to cold.

450 F. was no where near enough preheat on that manifold before starting to braze. I'd have used a rosebud and gotten it up to around 900 F. before starting.


HT2,
Apparently, you do not see in the photos that my prep was mostly full penetration. Spending money, needlessly, for a carbide burr wouldn't get me any better prep than what was accomplished by the grinder. I really can't justify spending $40 for a tool that loses its edges after too few uses. Been there... done that... took the burr back to Napa for a refund after viewing the edges through a stereo microscope. As long as the rod melts when touched to the red hot metal, and fills the void when introduced to the puddle, I think it's hot enough. Never had one of my brazing jobs fail, yet. I see brazing guys use way too much heat, which I deem as unnecessary. Only need to heat the area of repair with the torch flame hot enough to flow the rod, not the whole piece. When overheated the flux starts to boil and spatter... pretty easy to determine when the heat is just right.

Sorry, but I don't see where more heat by using a rosebud would get me a better fix than what I obtained. If you feel doubling the prep heat works for you, that's great, but my methodology has served me well.

I think your photos are a bit too blurry to evaluate, and hope you post photos of the finished job, so I can see what a properly heated braze looks like, compared to mine. Thanks.

[HT2-4956]

HT2,
Apparently, you do not see in the photos that my prep was mostly full penetration. Spending money, needlessly, for a carbide burr wouldn't get me any better prep than what was accomplished by the grinder. I really can't justify spending $40 for a tool that loses its edges after too few uses. Been there... done that... took the burr back to Napa for a refund after viewing the edges through a stereo microscope. As long as the rod melts when touched to the red hot metal, and fills the void when introduced to the puddle, I think it's hot enough. Never had one of my brazing jobs fail, yet. I see brazing guys use way too much heat, which I deem as unnecessary. Only need to heat the area of repair with the torch flame hot enough to flow the rod, not the whole piece. When overheated the flux starts to boil and spatter... pretty easy to determine when the heat is just right.

Sorry, but I don't see where more heat by using a rosebud would get me a better fix than what I obtained. If you feel doubling the prep heat works for you, that's great, but my methodology has served me well.

I think your photos are a bit too blurry to evaluate, and hope you post photos of the finished job, so I can see what a properly heated braze looks like, compared to mine. Thanks.

$40 for a carbide burr! Obviously NAPA is not the place to buy those things. As to there not lasting long well, of all the different materials I've used them on over the years I'd have to say that Cast Iron has been about the gentlest on them. My experience is that if you're just using it on cast iron it ought to last for years. I've currently got one that's several years old and it still cuts into cast iron like it's butter. I think the biggest reason that carbide burrs dull out and fail to cut efficiently is not so much the material they've been used on but rather the way the operator has tried to use them. You have to use a little gentle finesse so they don't bounce and chatter around.

The main reason for using a carbide burr for a cast iron prep instead of a grinding rock is because a carbide burr cleanly cuts metal a way where as a grinding rock has more of a rubbing it off action. That rubbing action tends to leave a layer of smeared carbon platelets on the surface which can interfere with the brazing filler forming a good solid state bond with the faying surfaces.

One old school technique for helping insure you'd get a good bond when brazing cast iron was that prior to brazing you'd take a highly oxidizing flame and sear the faying surfaces and wire brush them. This was all about burning a way as much of the carbon on the surface as possible prior to adding the bronze filler.

Sorry about the blurry photos but my digital camera is going south. This is the best picture I've currently got showing what I think is a braze done at a hot enough temperature. I realize you can't tell all that much from it.