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Thread: 6010 vs 6011 for root pass

  1. #1
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    6010 vs 6011 for root pass

    I am trying to weld together a box blade. This project is already listed on another thread entitled “Box Blade repair”, but I thought this topic deserved a separate thread.
    I was trying to weld together square tubing, flat plate, and angle iron and all are 3/8” mild steel. I did everything I was supposed to: Mill scale, rust and all other contaminants were removed from the metal, the edges were beveled at 30 degrees. The fit was good and we were welding on practice pieces.
    I wanted to use 6010 for the root pass and 7018 for the cap. I looked for 6010 at several places, such as home depot, Lowes and tractor supply and none of those places carry 6010, but they all carry plenty of 6011. I went to a local welding supplier and picked up the 6010. We tried welding with it, but we had a very hard time starting the arc, keeping the arc going and the electrode kept sticking. It was very frustrating. We varied the amperage with no improvement. The Lincoln 6011 rods laid down like a dream. The 7018 rods also had no problems. I do not know what the brand of the 6010 rods are. They were pulled from a tin canister and placed in a plastic bag. He told me they were the red and not the gray 6010 rods.
    I gave up but tried again the following day. I picked up a 1/8” thick piece of angle iron, I removed the mill scale and tried again with the 6010 rod. It was a little easier on the angle iron, but still very frustrating. I did not think we could use if for our project because it was too hard to weld with. I made sure my electrode was positive (DC positive electrode). I tried baking the rods at 400 degrees for 2 hours, but that did not help. In fact, it seemed to make it worse.
    I don’t think it was the welder (person). My son has been to welding school. He does only MIG welding at his current job, but he has certificates for stick welding and said he had no problems at school using 6010 rods.
    The welder (machine) is a cheap Chinese 240 volt, 200 amp DC stick welder. But It has no problems with other rods such as 6011 and 7018.
    I read about 6010 and 6011 and found this information: The metal electrodes are identical. Both use cellulose for flux. 6010 uses sodium and 6011 uses potassium. The potassium helps keep the arc from going out better than sodium. Therefore, 6011 can be used with AC or DC electrode positive or electrode negative. But 6010 can only be welded with a DC positive electrode welder.
    So now I have my questions:
    1) Is 6010 supposed to be so hard to weld with compared to 6011?
    2) Could it be my welder or bad supply of electrodes?
    3) Can I use 6011 in place of 6010 for the root pass? It needs to be strong since it is a box blade, but it is not a bridge or building or pipe and won’t be inspected for code compliance.
    4) Why is there an abundance of 6011 sold everywhere, but 6010 is very hard to find?

  2. #2
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    Re: 6010 vs 6011 for root pass

    Both 6011 and 6010 are for same type welding
    6011 can use with AC welders and DC
    6010 DC welders only

    Dave

    PS
    Back in 1960's most wood us 60101/6011 for some type welding it was easy to use over 7018
    Here list of command rods use in shop in 1960's be for MIG was low cost

    6010/6011
    6012
    6013
    7014
    7024
    7018

    Most had on the truck only
    6010
    6013
    7018

    There are other rods but most shop would only buy as need only
    Last edited by smithdoor; 04-30-2018 at 02:53 PM.
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    Re: 6010 vs 6011 for root pass

    Quote Originally Posted by JGPenfield View Post
    I am trying to weld together a box blade. This project is already listed on another thread entitled “Box Blade repair”, but I thought this topic deserved a separate thread.
    I was trying to weld together square tubing, flat plate, and angle iron and all are 3/8” mild steel. I did everything I was supposed to: Mill scale, rust and all other contaminants were removed from the metal, the edges were beveled at 30 degrees. The fit was good and we were welding on practice pieces.
    I wanted to use 6010 for the root pass and 7018 for the cap. I looked for 6010 at several places, such as home depot, Lowes and tractor supply and none of those places carry 6010, but they all carry plenty of 6011. I went to a local welding supplier and picked up the 6010. We tried welding with it, but we had a very hard time starting the arc, keeping the arc going and the electrode kept sticking. It was very frustrating. We varied the amperage with no improvement. The Lincoln 6011 rods laid down like a dream. The 7018 rods also had no problems. I do not know what the brand of the 6010 rods are. They were pulled from a tin canister and placed in a plastic bag. He told me they were the red and not the gray 6010 rods.
    I gave up but tried again the following day. I picked up a 1/8” thick piece of angle iron, I removed the mill scale and tried again with the 6010 rod. It was a little easier on the angle iron, but still very frustrating. I did not think we could use if for our project because it was too hard to weld with. I made sure my electrode was positive (DC positive electrode). I tried baking the rods at 400 degrees for 2 hours, but that did not help. In fact, it seemed to make it worse.
    I don’t think it was the welder (person). My son has been to welding school. He does only MIG welding at his current job, but he has certificates for stick welding and said he had no problems at school using 6010 rods.
    The welder (machine) is a cheap Chinese 240 volt, 200 amp DC stick welder. But It has no problems with other rods such as 6011 and 7018.
    I read about 6010 and 6011 and found this information: The metal electrodes are identical. Both use cellulose for flux. 6010 uses sodium and 6011 uses potassium. The potassium helps keep the arc from going out better than sodium. Therefore, 6011 can be used with AC or DC electrode positive or electrode negative. But 6010 can only be welded with a DC positive electrode welder.
    So now I have my questions:
    1)Is 6010 supposed to be so hard to weld with compared to 6011?
    2)Could it be my welder or bad supply of electrodes?
    3)Can I use 6011 in place of 6010 for the root pass? It needs to be strong since it is a box blade, but it is not a bridge or building or pipe and won’t be inspected for code compliance.
    4)Why is there an abundance of 6011 sold everywhere, but 6010 is very hard to find?
    If your welding machine is an inverter, that is the problem. A lot of the cheaper inverter power source welders will not run 6010 rods. I don’t know the science behind it but I am sure someone else will chime in.


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  4. #4
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    Re: 6010 vs 6011 for root pass

    as stated above;some of the inverter type welding machines can't run 6010. i had a miller maxstar 150 and the arc was difficult to maintain with 6010. it ran the other rods with no problem.
    Last edited by docwelder; 04-30-2018 at 01:52 PM.
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    Re: 6010 vs 6011 for root pass

    Quote Originally Posted by smithdoor View Post
    Both 6011 and 6010 are for same type welding
    6011 can use with AC welders and DC
    6010 DC welders only

    Dave
    Is there any advantage in using 6010 over 6011?



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    Re: 6010 vs 6011 for root pass

    I may be missing the whole point of the thread. If what you really want is to get your boxblade fixed, and your fit-up is as good as it sounds, why would you not simply start welding your first pass with the 7018 that is working well? If fit-up is good, there really is no magic in a 6010/11 root pass. But there is quite likely something I am overlooking......Hopefully you will get the project completed in a satisfactory manner!!

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    Re: 6010 vs 6011 for root pass

    The advantage is as some have said. Namely, that it is the 6011 that gives the advantage if the welder at hand is one of the thousands of A/C only machines that one finds in farm shops across the land where there will be millions spent on farm machinery and as little as possible on a machine that can help to keep it running.

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    Re: 6010 vs 6011 for root pass

    One advantage of using 6010 is that the fumes/smoke don't give me a sinus headache like too much 6011 can do.

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    Re: 6010 vs 6011 for root pass

    Quote Originally Posted by villageblacksmith View Post
    I may be missing the whole point of the thread. If what you really want is to get your boxblade fixed, and your fit-up is as good as it sounds, why would you not simply start welding your first pass with the 7018 that is working well? If fit-up is good, there really is no magic in a 6010/11 root pass. But there is quite likely something I am overlooking......Hopefully you will get the project completed in a satisfactory manner!!
    My son is just out of welding school and giving me advice he gets from his coworkers. He thought this was going to be the strongest weld and he was familiar with it at his school. But your post suggests that if the fit is good, then a root pass is not needed?


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    Re: 6010 vs 6011 for root pass

    Quote Originally Posted by JGPenfield View Post
    I went to a local welding supplier and picked up the 6010. We tried welding with it, but we had a very hard time starting the arc, keeping the arc going and the electrode kept sticking.

    It was very frustrating. We varied the amperage with no improvement.
    The Lincoln 6011 rods laid down like a dream. The 7018 rods also had no problems.

    I made sure my electrode was positive (DC positive electrode).
    I tried baking the rods at 400 degrees for 2 hours, but that did not help. In fact, it seemed to make it worse.

    The welder (machine) is a cheap Chinese 240 volt, 200 amp DC stick welder. But It has no problems with other rods such as 6011 and 7018.

    So now I have my questions:
    1) Is 6010 supposed to be so hard to weld with compared to 6011?
    2) Could it be my welder or bad supply of electrodes?
    3) Can I use 6011 in place of 6010 for the root pass? It needs to be strong since it is a box blade, but it is not a bridge or building or pipe and won’t be inspected for code compliance.
    4) Why is there an abundance of 6011 sold everywhere, but 6010 is very hard to find?
    (I cut out a lot of your post for my ease of reading)

    You are describing what happens to many cheap inverters - most rods run fine, 6010 does not. Just use 6011 instead.

    Baking 6010 does make it worse as the small amount of moisture the flux contains is figured in to their performance - therefore the moisture is necessary.

    As said by others, 6010/11 isn't always needed anyway.
    With excellent fit up, you can skip that step unless you desire to run a fully penetrated open root - 7018 is a little harder to control doing this.

    Just to clarify, your son is giving you good advice. 6010/11 root is just not always needed, but will certainly be a good way to go if you want to.
    Last edited by MinnesotaDave; 04-30-2018 at 02:45 PM.
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    Re: 6010 vs 6011 for root pass

    I have found different variants of 6010 run better on certain machines. For example, 5P+ runs much easier than brick red 6010 on small inverters. Unless a code says otherwise, in my experience, 6010, 5P+, or 6011 all have a very similar effect when it comes down to it. If getting into the root isn't an issue, I would just use 7018 for the entire weld.

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    Re: 6010 vs 6011 for root pass

    I have also heard to soak the rods in water and allow them to dry overnight & try again. It also seems that the manufacturer has something to do with it, my cheapie chinese inverter has ran everything I have thrown at it, even those NASTY aluminum DC rods.
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    Re: 6010 vs 6011 for root pass

    Only difference I've noticed is that 6010 seems more "liquid" (or less viscous -- more like water than molasses) than 6011 in similar situations.

    That, and inverters suck.

    Quote Originally Posted by JGPenfield View Post
    But your post suggests that if the fit is good, then a root pass is not needed?
    "Root" refers only to the location, and desired characteristics (penetration of the weld nugget into both pieces to be joined), not to the particular rod used to create the root pass. You can also do your root pass with 7018 or whatever.
    Last edited by Kelvin; 05-01-2018 at 09:06 AM.

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    Re: 6010 vs 6011 for root pass

    Like others have suggested, if it’s a cheap Chinese inverter, then it probably won’t run 6010, mine doesn’t even like 6011. If I long arc even just a little bit using 6011 the arc will snuff out. Some of the newer machines have an added provision for running cellulose rods, and will run 6010/6011 just fine. The issue is in the open circuit voltage the machine can produce, typical import machines produce a OCV too low to run 6010.

    As mentioned 6010/11 penetrates deep, with a fast freezing puddle. This makes it great for root passes. It’s also good at cutting through surface contamination on metal, which is likely why your son recommended it.

    Anyways, I digress. If you wish to use 6010 for your first pass on this repair, 6011 is interchangeable for your purposes. They are basically the same rod, 6011 just has an additive to help stabilize the arc. Apparently there are some specific 6011 electrodes that run even better on inverters than others, I have yet to locate the suggested rods locally however.
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    Re: 6010 vs 6011 for root pass

    1) you do not bake cellulose rods like 6010 or 6011 if you had 7018 in the rod oven you exposed them to moisture from baking the 6010
    .
    2) 6010 and 6011 runs the same for the most part. potassium instead of sodium in the flux makes it more arc stable but flux coating rod often is slightly thicker though you will need a micrometer to see it. 6010 with the thinnest flux coating has a slight advantage with root pass keyhole welding but if you not doing pipe usually better to use 6011
    .
    3) some inverters run badly or worse with 6010 and slightly better with 6011 and often you cannot run the rods on the hot side. for example 1/8 rod 70-125 amps range normally but you might have arc stability problems over 100 amps with 6011 and over 90 amps with 6010 and usually can only drag rod not pull a long arc
    .
    4) many inverters deliberately made that with 6011 you pull a 3/16 arc if goes out you count a second or 2 and when you go back close arc auto restarts before touching usually if rod and part hot. by arc on arc off arc on (pulsing) you can usually fill gaps far faster than long stable arc to short arc to long arc......... it takes a little getting used to and many prefer it once they get used to it. basically many inverters its impossible to weld with too long a arc for long periods, its made more fool proof
    .
    expert welders can use welding machine observe how arc acts and adjust and continue welding usually in a few seconds to the way the machine runs. new guy might take minutes to hours to years to adjust. my inverter runs 6010 barely dragging rod, normally i use 6011 but sometimes i use 6010 just to use what i got up rather than throw it out. i know better to try long arc whipping with 6010 on a inverter. it only takes a second to see arc stability and adjust to it
    Last edited by WNY_TomB; 05-01-2018 at 01:11 PM.

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    Re: 6010 vs 6011 for root pass

    one problem with the interwebs is exactly what is seen here. This isn't a portajohn for elephants hanging off the 70th floor of a hi-rise.
    You have everything cleaned up, beveled and gapped OK ( after all it's just 3/8). The machine runs 7018 acceptably and you can run it decent ? Get some 3/32 7018, run the first pass with it. Call it root pass to sound cool.
    Turn it up a little and take some 1/8 7018 and do one or two more passes and call it a day.Weld everything flat/horiz or a tad uphill if/when needed. It'll be fine.
    An entire 1/8 7018 will give a 4-5 inch fillet weld on 3/8 steel.... to give you an idea of travel speed.
    Lay it in there @ about 135-150 amps. No dancing/circle jerking/weaving ...none of that. Strike the arc and fill it deep and slow.

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    Re: 6010 vs 6011 for root pass

    u'll be glad to hear, ur over thinking this. forget 6010, throw it out the window. ur not doing pipe, or anthing dirty. ur welder is a cheepo, which u already know. 6011 is a lil stronger/easier than 6010, anyway. so again, dont think 6010. if u have access to the back side, u can back gouge and use 7018 all the wAY ( scarf/grind out the back side of ur 7018 and run another pass from back/underside), thats how it done sometimes for reals. also theres such thing as too much weld/heat. so just do it. if it breaks do it again, its a box scraper, noone gonna hang a lifeline off it

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    Re: 6010 vs 6011 for root pass


    JGPenfield

    Quote Originally Posted by JGPenfield View Post
    I am trying to weld . . . but 6010 is very hard to find?
    I have read your thread X plus - it is evident, you have read
    'too much' - and can't weld 'for feces' . . .

    Find/befriend - an old/experienced welder - and: all of your
    inadequacies/questions can be rectified in about an hour . . .


    Opus


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    isn't worth anything unless it produce [at least] a single
    picture . . .


    One hour in the lab, vs the collective time to produce the
    thousands of words
    in this thread - isn't time well spent.

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    Re: 6010 vs 6011 for root pass

    Quote Originally Posted by villageblacksmith View Post
    I may be missing the whole point of the thread. If what you really want is to get your boxblade fixed, and your fit-up is as good as it sounds, why would you not simply start welding your first pass with the 7018 that is working well? If fit-up is good, there really is no magic in a 6010/11 root pass. But there is quite likely something I am overlooking......Hopefully you will get the project completed in a satisfactory manner!!
    This is the answer...If the steel is clean and crud free 6010 is not needed on your project
    just weld it up with the 7018 rod


    The only reason i mentioned the 6010 in your original post was you were talking about welding using the original rusty steel that was on the box blade and rewelding all the failed joints
    But you changed your mind and decided to do a remake and modify it similar to the better box blade construction of my box blade and others in the industry

    So as long as you are going to use a clean and well prepared steel the 7018 is fine ...Like i said Welding is 2/3 prep and fit up ...The welding is the easy part
    Getting it clamped and squared then tacked up ...rechecked ...that nothing moved then weld away


    When i did go to college and took industrial arts ...Welding 101 >> The entire first semester was book learning and welding with nothing but 6010
    It did not matter if you were wanting to learn MIG or TIG or SMAW or Pipe and Plate or what ever ...You had to pass Welding 101 first
    It was for me a humbling experience...But i learned
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  20. #20
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    Re: 6010 vs 6011 for root pass

    I purchase 6011 in my shop
    Some welders say 6010 using DC is little smoother
    But running a shop with both AC and DC welding machined it safer just to buy 6011 only

    Dave


    Quote Originally Posted by JGPenfield View Post
    Is there any advantage in using 6010 over 6011?



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