Aluminum Stick welding

[Scrapman Industries]

It's quite obvious you've never been in a courtroom and have no idea how tort jurisprudence works -other wise you'd not be so cavalier in your 'advice'. As they say you may beat the 'rap' but you won't beat the ride- translated that means-you may prevail in the end but it is going to be a long bumpy and expensive trip to get there. Tort law follows French law and not English common law like our criminal justice system does. As a point of evidence by the time you'd be sued all 'piss tests' would be of no value at such a later date.
The majority of people offering advice on how to perform the repair are forgetting one important fact this is Not his 'stuff' that is being repaired. The OP is free to do as he wishes, I am merely pointing out how his good intentions as they say pave the road to hell and he might want to reconsider 'fixing' something that is not his- especially since he lacks the knowledge and skill base to do. I jumped in because I saw he is located in PA- as I am and as I stated I learned the hard way how it works and all I did was sell the item and I know what the settlement was for doing just that- One of the first questions asked in a deposition is 'did you 'touch' the product in any way INCLUDING repackaging. Oh and one final comment- if the railing was a purchased item by the city and the OP 'fixes' it and things go badly as I have suggested- Not only does Brainless Billy sue him - the Mfg of the railing does too and most likely the City as well. I don't make the rules- I just learned by experience how they work. As they say the school of hard knocks is the best teacher- it also has the highest cost of tuition I am trying to save him that cost.

What exactly happened that taught you this well. you don't have to get to specific, but I hear this all the time, oh don't do this because someone could sue, don't do that because someone could sue. I've never actually met someone who had this experience to back it up. It was always just some myth that I've heard people say because it seemed like they were looking for an excuse not to do something.

[Scrapman Industries]

Too bad you are not looking for an excuse to purchase a spool gun. Should you proceed with the repair... Do lots of practice on the type tube you plan to weld and positions. Welding with aluminum rods sucked for me. Just plan on buying at least 10 lbs to practice. Don't waste time with the small packs.

If I had a spool gun It would have been done as soon as it got dark last saturday. I never did stick welds with aluminum and I suck at tig welding aluminum, but I can get decent enough mig welds on aluminum when I have the equipment to do so. I just never really do anything with aluminum, so I never really bothered to get the equipment for it.

[tapwelder]

Sucking at TIG Al, might be better than you are at stick Al.

[CrookedRoads]

So much for being a good samaritan in America, we've just about lawyered are self out of business here, any third world country would had that railing fixed already.

[bobhdus]

If I had a spool gun It would have been done as soon as it got dark last saturday. I never did stick welds with aluminum and I suck at tig welding aluminum, but I can get decent enough mig welds on aluminum when I have the equipment to do so. I just never really do anything with aluminum, so I never really bothered to get the equipment for it.

If you have a standard wire feeder machine, and the weld lead is short enough, plus use argon and your polarity is all good, you can sometimes use a standard mig gun with Aluminum wire. But it will tend to birdnest so no stubbing the tip, and make sure you have a good liner lol. Had to do this a few times over the years lol.


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[131re]

Scrapman
The Readers Digest version is it was a product liability suit that involved an injured worker. As I said in an earlier post like many who have posted I blamed the 'greedy lawyers' it wasn't them - as I said it was the Insurance company that paid his Workmans comp claims. When your life is on the line you learn as much as quickly as you can and ask as many questions as you can so you can best protect yourself to know what you are facing. What people do NOT understand as I said earlier today Tort or 'injury/damage' law is based on the French concept of you are guilty as charged at least here in PA- and it is up to YOU to prove your innocence. Also here in PA section 301 or maybe it is 302 (been too many years) states that if there is no immediately discernible cause for the accident the equipment being utilized is assumed defective. Period. That means you now have to establish it was not defective. Here's where it gets crazy- say you produce a Hammer as a product- and Brainless Billy decides he wants to see if it really hurts to get hit on the head with a hammer- so he smacks himself hard- and needless to say he is now injured severely. SO did YOU put a warning on the package that said- DO NOT smack yourself in the head with this hammer? If not you know what happens next- BUT- if you DID put a warning on there- You ARE Acknowledging this is a potential danger and what else did you do to prevent Billy from injuring himself? !!!!
If you would like to know more PM me and I'll be more than happy to answer your questions- Oh one thing I didn't mention previously- your life and its plans go on hold while you are going thru this- it took FOUR years for this case to get a docket date-(trial date) and it was settled literally in the eleventh hour - 5pm on a Friday before a 9am Monday trial start. So no it is NOT a myth and here is a sobering fact- and this info is a bit dated -but 1 in 13 people that are self employed WILL be sued at some point in the operation of their business.

[Scrapman Industries]

Sucking at TIG Al, might be better than you are at stick Al.

I actually did practice stick welding on some aluminum truckers ramp I found on the side of the highway. It really is not nearly as hard and as bad as people talk it up to be. I was running 3/32 at first just to sorta get rid of the old ones I had that were starting to loose their flux and I wasn't getting enough heat. So I went and did 1/8" rods and got some pretty decent looking welds. granted the restarts are a bit harder than running a steel rod and almost every error you make is amplified significantly with these things, I would say that Stick welding Aluminum is far easier than Tig welding it. Although I'm a fairly decent stick welder and also struggle to Tig weld anything .

[Scrapman Industries]

I don't know if that link works but if it does thats the video I made on stick welding aluminum. My welds probably won't pass xray and bend tests yet, but I was expecting it to go way worse than it did based on what everyone else I've ever talked to has said about this process.

[bobhdus]

Awesome Video. Your right! It’s not that bad welding it. Can be a little“gummy” feeling sometimes. The flux is sometimes hard to remove as well. I’ve heard it welds better using a generator driven welder. Idk why that would make a difference but heard that from a few welders where I work. I’ve used the certanium product as well as what’s pictured both work great and as I said in previous post, you can use OAW process if you have that option.


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[Bonzoo]

You noticed my location ?
AL stick on AC sucks..... but it'll work. The stepkids car needed a new thermostat housing and it was not to be found. I whacked it and fired up the lathe and a piece of 6061 tube. I welded it up with stick and ran a bead around the neck to "help" with retaining the hose clamp. It'll be fine.It's like any other tool. If it's there you'll eventually reach for it

[driz]

Scrapman
Couple of things, since I was the one that brought up the liability issue I wanted to add a few more comments. While others at other parks may take over said repairs that doesn't make it 'legal' in the eyes of a court. At a minimum- you should take pictures. In todays world virtually all in political offices have emails. Compose a nice letter explaining via the pictures the damage and what needs to be done and ask when they feel it can be resolved since it is a hazard and they are legally Liable. Should they then not give you a satisfactory reply as has been mentioned the media would swoop down in a heart beat.
Here is what is wrong about your repairing it- You have already established that most likely Billy BMXer was who damaged the railing. That shows the railing is not sufficient for this abuse. It needs to be redesigned and made stronger. If you go and repair it with OUT the cities WRITTEN authorization- you repair it- Brainless Billy comes back hits it again but this time he manages to injure himself either via your repair or because the design as I said is bad. He is really busted up and despite prior comments it is NOT the lawyers that are the vultures- it is the damn Insurance companies- they want repaid for Brainless Billy's medical bills so they 'encourage' him and his family to sue- Because- and most people do NOT know this- when you get a Tort settlement part of the award goes to the INSURANCE company to pay back their expenses.
As it stands now the City SOLELY is liable for any injuries. You jump in and repair it- you just added your name to the list. And if you do not have written permission- guess what happens next? In the court room it goes like this- After basic questions about who you are etc (to establish to the jury you are indeed the defendant named) the Lawyer will say- Mr Scrapman - on such and such date did you perform a repair to the railing at the XYZ Skate park? You would reply Yes- next Question- WERE you AUTHORIZED by the city to do this? Answer- NO-- You now just took on ALL liability and basically resolved the city in the eyes of the jury you are the guy responsible for Brainless Billy's injury. And to further add to your woes- the city can file charges against you for 'damaging city property'.
Believe me I think what you want to do is great- but- you have to ask yourself- is it Worth the risk to me financially? The other thing most people do not know is- they have the attitude of 'well I don't own much- they cant' get blood from a stone' --Wrong- if you get your clock cleaned in a tort action- and owe big money- the court will decide how much of your wages or self employment earnings- you will pay out each month. Kind of like child support or alimony. You are free to do as you see fit, I am giving you the 'gee I wish someone would have told me first' . Start with making the city aware- if that fails- take it to the media-no politician wants to be painted as the bad guy who didn't fix the park.

Sadly you sum up the ridiculous state of the US tort system perfectly. At all levels the players are looking to dump the blame on someone else so don’t let it be you. Do it anonymously or not at all as good intent and especially the truth mean NOTHING when the vultures are circling.

[Scrapman Industries]

Awesome Video. Your right! It’s not that bad welding it. Can be a little“gummy” feeling sometimes. The flux is sometimes hard to remove as well. I’ve heard it welds better using a generator driven welder. Idk why that would make a difference but heard that from a few welders where I work. I’ve used the certanium product as well as what’s pictured both work great and as I said in previous post, you can use OAW process if you have that option.


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I could be wrong but I've heard that most modern generators put out a more steady current than what comes out of the outlets in your house. I was watching a video about it somewhere that a generator manufacturer put out about it. It wasn't like a crazy amount of difference, but I noticed that Aluminum rods tend to exaggerate any defects in your welding ability. Maybe the power getting used is one of those things? and Its crazy learning about all these things you can use to stick aluminum together. A few weeks ago I thought it could only really be done with mig or tig. And if you were running mig I thought for the longest time it was gonna be like super expensive. But really its not all that bad once you get a machine set up for it.

[tapwelder]

Thanks for sharing your experience, scrapman. I was particularly impressed with your ability to restart the rod. I posted my results several years back, before RickV's demo. As I recall, feed wasn't a problem as much as getting it started. I used a esab inverter 150 APS and a ZENA Underwood welder. Seemed like stray arcs left glassy coating on the tip that hindered restarts.

I ended up with a spool gun after doing a couple of field repairs with the stick. Stick would be Ideal... Especially for ease of setup.

Again, Thanks for sharing

[One1]

The lincoln 180 will push aluminum just fine without a spool gun. Keep the lead fairly straight and there's no problem. If you're just doing that 1 repair you don't have to replace your liner. If you do any more than once every now and then it becomes an issue. I've pushed .035 4043 in my 180 a few times with no issue.

[Scrapman Industries]

The lincoln 180 will push aluminum just fine without a spool gun. Keep the lead fairly straight and there's no problem. If you're just doing that 1 repair you don't have to replace your liner. If you do any more than once every now and then it becomes an issue. I've pushed .035 4043 in my 180 a few times with no issue.

Thanks. I'm not sure if this is a common problem but when I was running flux core down in Texas, I got spatter stuck in the liner and had to grind a bit of it off. Not sure If that will present a problem feeding the aluminum or not. I know it runs flux core fine afterwards. I might pick up some Aluminum wire and give it a shot. I really don't think I would be welding enough Alum. to justify a spool gun.

Thanks for sharing your experience, scrapman. I was particularly impressed with your ability to restart the rod. I posted my results several years back, before RickV's demo. As I recall, feed wasn't a problem as much as getting it started. I used a esab inverter 150 APS and a ZENA Underwood welder. Seemed like stray arcs left glassy coating on the tip that hindered restarts.

I ended up with a spool gun after doing a couple of field repairs with the stick. Stick would be Ideal... Especially for ease of setup.

Again, Thanks for sharing

Your welcome. I kept hearing nothing but negative comments about stick welding Aluminum. Kinda had to make something positive about them. They're not nearly as bad as everyone made them out to be. At least for me anyway. And I'm sort of used to making really ghetto junkyard repairs on some rusty pieces of scrap, some of which I never feel like grinding, so I may just be more used to hard starting rods. I know when I was doing the 3/32 rods they kept waving around and bouncing so bad it was hard to get them to start right in the joint. Kept hitting some random place next to where I was trying to aim. Placing a hand on the rod probably woulda fixed that.

And thank you and all the other guys who shared their experiences with these things. I sorta just read everything that I could handle reading about them and combined what everyone was saying to sort of have a plan as to how to run them before I even started. I also had a few dealings with Aluminum mig and tried but failed to learn aluminum tig so I used that experience to help out as well. I kinda wish they would teach these rods in school. I would have made all sorts of aluminum junk by now had I known about these things earlier.

[bobhdus]

If you do try Aluminum wire in your standard gun, don’t have the wire roller pressure too tight, use the “U” groove rollers if you have them and with the nozzle tip, use the next size greater than the wire size as the Aluminum will expand.


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[Mmock4]

Could Mr.Scrapman email whomever is in charge of such affairs(skatepark), offer to repair the damage as providing a service- even if he chooses not to charge for it. Have the parties of interest e-sign a “hold harmless/release of liability” contract, and get this thing fixed for himself, and the members of his community without worrying about litigation? It seems likely that if the city smelled one whiff of potential legal troubles resulting from the inconspicuous skate park, their reaction would be to shut it down “until they get around to it”. In fact Mr.Scrapman already indicated they have other plans for the park, so closing it down to avoid any legal ramifications due to the current disrepair of the facilities seems like a very likely possibility. That would really blow, as the only party that serves is the city department.

The issue of liability, and ensuing lawsuits is an issue Mr.Scrapman. Please don’t underestimate the risk, or make decisions because of the way it “should” be, because even though it “shouldn’t be this way” it is. I’m not surprised that insurance would try to snake money out of whoever’s pocket they could. They don’t care about the human aspect of affairs, just the numbers.

[One1]

Thanks. I'm not sure if this is a common problem but when I was running flux core down in Texas, I got spatter stuck in the liner and had to grind a bit of it off. Not sure If that will present a problem feeding the aluminum or not. I know it runs flux core fine afterwards. I might pick up some Aluminum wire and give it a shot. I really don't think I would be welding enough Alum. to justify a spool gun.

That's why they make plastic flux core only tips for mig guns. If you don't use them the flux core will infest everything.

[Scrapman Industries]

That's why they make plastic flux core only tips for mig guns. If you don't use them the flux core will infest everything.

thanks. I never weld without mine. But sometimes you'll find that those sparks get into the most random places.

[Scrapman Industries]

Don't know if the picture will appear. But I found an aluminum motor casing in my truck the other day and decided to practice on that. This aluminum stick welding stuff is turning out better than I hoped it would. Although i'm no pro at it yet. And as for the skatepark deal, apparently the church group thats pushing for the new park has an event coming up in september thats supposed to draw around 500 people there. so I guess they had some guy come with a mig welder and weld everything that was broke. I gotta give him credit as he did get everything stuck back to how its supposed to be and if they were made of steel i'm sure his welds would be flawless, but I don't think this guy had any formal training on aluminum as theres cold lap and incomplete fusion on almost every horizontal or flat weld he did. the vertical down welds were surprisingly decent though. But he used a grinder instead of a stainless brush on most of the pre cleaning so theres black soot all over the place. overall not bad for a fellow hobby welder, yet I wouldn't want to see welds like that coming out of Boomer's trailer shop. which is probably why they didn't hire me. As my first time mig welding aluminum looked worst than this guys. (and that was on my weld test for Boomer's)

[One1]

Looks fused together. It's hard to tell what it's doing with the white/grey crust flux using stick aluminum rods. You pretty much gotta trust you're doing it right and instead of looking (cause you can't see the puddle so looking is just going to screw you up) you gotta pick a movement (whip, pause, etc) and just go with it in rhythm for a consistent bead.

[Scrapman Industries]

Looks fused together. It's hard to tell what it's doing with the white/grey crust flux using stick aluminum rods. You pretty much gotta trust you're doing it right and instead of looking (cause you can't see the puddle so looking is just going to screw you up) you gotta pick a movement (whip, pause, etc) and just go with it in rhythm for a consistent bead.

Yeah. Its also Hard to tell where your at on base metal thats not straight like that casing. That valley in the middle kind of snuck up on me and caught me off guard. I also think these things could be vertical down rods as that little bit I tried to fix doing vertical up didn't really work that well.