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Thread: Manganese plate

  1. #1
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    Manganese plate

    Ok so I have to repair this 24 yard bucket on a PC 4000 shovel, the 1 side cutter has 3 or 4 pieces of wedge bar stacked up on the edge and evry one of them is cracking. The owners and the operator want them cut out and the side cutter rebuilt, ordinarily I would do this and tack up a piece of 3 inch thick AR plate, V it out both sides for a full pen weld and have at it til she is done. Problem is there is no 3 inch AR plate readily available but there is some 3 inch Manganese plate there. The owner wants to use it, the steel supplier has been after him to try this for years, no one wants to do it. But I will, Ive done it before, I rebuilt an old Hendrix dragline bucket with a manganese lip and welded a new floor into it, the floor was 1 1/2 AR plate and the lip was 4 inches thick. This was in 1994, I looked at it last year when I was up on the mountain and the floor is still in it and has no cracks the operator said he has had no trouble at all with that weld or any other work I did on it. So that worked out fine. Only problem is I forget which stainless wire I used on the thing, 308 or 309 sticks in my head but I'm not sure and I don't know if it will even make a difference. All I remember it was flux core and most of the welding was vertical, and that I didn't weld it fast so as not to get it overly hot and this will be vertical for most of the welding as well. Sounds like BS I know but that's the truth, anyone have any ideas? I'm thinkin order some of both and the gas and see which runs best on some scrap iron once the plate arrives.

  2. #2
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    Re: Manganese plate

    http://www.totalmateria.com/page.asp...ite=kts&NM=181

    There is some information here about welding it.

    Mike

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    Re: Manganese plate

    With an air chipping hammer, peen every pass of weld. It will reduce cracks in the HAZ.
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    Re: Manganese plate

    Quote Originally Posted by mla2ofus View Post
    With an air chipping hammer, peen every pass of weld. It will reduce cracks in the HAZ.
    Mike
    Yup, I remember doin that in 94, but I didn't have an air chipper then, used my slag hammer, gave me a good reason to slow down and let it cool off. You cant weld this stuff wide open like I do when doin regular AR plate.

    I read the other material leightrepairs sent, thank you much.

    I know one thing, it was an adventure the first time, and I'm sure it will be this time as well. They said the first time it couldn't be done and I did it, and its still there, and they are sayin the same thing this time.

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    Re: Manganese plate

    Popeye,

    If I were in your place faced with using a material I wasn't real sure of the best welding procedure for I think I'd put some effort in to contacting that steel supplier you mentioned in hopes they could put me on to the manufacture of that Manganese plate they're recommending. Based on past experience in similar situations I think the odds would be good that the manufacturer of that particular Manganese plate will have some recommend welding procedures available that they'd be more than willing to share with you free of charge. After all these people have a vested interest in you having success using there product.

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    Re: Manganese plate

    This seems to be geared more to the rail road industry than mining but it has some info of manganese steel welding. According to this 309 is the preferred filler rod.

    http://www.asa.transport.nsw.gov.au/...k/esr-0322.pdf

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    Re: Manganese plate

    Interesting that they want you to use small electrodes, and not start a new bead until it is cool enough to touch. It might take a while, with 3 inch plate.

    Richard



    Quote Originally Posted by HT2-4956 View Post
    This seems to be geared more to the rail road industry than mining but it has some info of manganese steel welding. According to this 309 is the preferred filler rod.

    http://www.asa.transport.nsw.gov.au/...k/esr-0322.pdf
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    Re: Manganese plate

    Used to have to weld up cracks in manganese roll crusher shells 2 1/2" thick. Gouge it out with airarc, fill the bottom of the crack with 5/32" nicromang stick, peen it til all the ripples are gone. Then start filling it with 1/4" nicromang, peening every pass the same way. When finished start crushing rock to further peen it. We never let it cool at all. YMMV.
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    Re: Manganese plate

    Quote Originally Posted by raferguson View Post
    Interesting that they want you to use small electrodes, and not start a new bead until it is cool enough to touch. It might take a while, with 3 inch plate.

    Richard
    Richard,

    I agree with you. Nothing about the recommended procedures in that publication sounded like a recipe for getting much done. At least not in any kind of timely and efficient manner.

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    Re: Manganese plate

    1/16" 309 wire............enjoy
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    Re: Manganese plate

    I read that article, I didn't get all that cautious when I did that dragline in 94, I bounced around on both sides to balance the heat and welded about a foot at a whack, some on the bottom on this side, then the top on the other side and so on until the whole thing was filled in. Peened the crap out of it with a slag hammer, the time factor doin all that helped to keep it from getting too hot. Sometimes I think these engineers overthink stuff...I'm just trying to remember what wire I used the last time I did this, seems it was 308 or 309.

    I have yet to see this chunk of plate, it was supposed to be here last Thursday, sometimes these miners have big ideas until they see the price tag. Neither the stain less flux core wire nor the manganese plate can you pick up with pocket change, maybe what will happen is I will gouge out the cracks weld em up until they can find some 3 inch AR plate. just have to see what happens
    Last edited by Popeye an old miner; 06-06-2017 at 10:20 PM.

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    Re: Manganese plate

    Some time back around 2017 I asked about this manganese plate and what wire to weld it with, I used some 309 1/16 wire made in Austria, that's what they sent with the plate. Wish I could remember the name of the wire, I forgot to put it up here what I did with it but here it isName:  Picture0705171338_1.jpg
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    Re: Manganese plate

    If you go thru with the Mag bar repair 309l would be your wire of choice. When we have to weld a repare plate on a Mag latch on either an Esco or P&H dipper we use .045 309l Esab shieldbrite dual shield 75/25 gas. Don't let it get into spray mode, keep it just shy of spray, especially with 1/16 dia wire. We suffered alot of root cracks if we spray. If the conditions dictate stick I shoot for 310 in 1/8 or 5/32 for out of position or 3/16 if you are flat position. No preheat unless it is -40 out i guess. Keep your interpass temps low also. Kobelco makes a 310 dual shield, but i can't get the purchaser to ok the cost. Usually on our pc4000 and cat 6040 or 6060 shovels we use T1 for all structural repairs, then put Esco wing shrouds on, and change when needed. Nice pictures! Hope repair goes well!
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    Re: Manganese plate

    I forgot, not to encourage equip abuse, but if the Mag doesn't get work hardened it will wear like mild steel. You probly know that, but it just popped into my head, as i messed that up once.
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    Re: Manganese plate

    Quote Originally Posted by MISSING LINK View Post
    If you go thru with the Mag bar repair 309l would be your wire of choice. When we have to weld a repare plate on a Mag latch on either an Esco or P&H dipper we use .045 309l Esab shieldbrite dual shield 75/25 gas. Don't let it get into spray mode, keep it just shy of spray, especially with 1/16 dia wire. We suffered alot of root cracks if we spray. If the conditions dictate stick I shoot for 310 in 1/8 or 5/32 for out of position or 3/16 if you are flat position. No preheat unless it is -40 out i guess. Keep your interpass temps low also. Kobelco makes a 310 dual shield, but i can't get the purchaser to ok the cost. Usually on our pc4000 and cat 6040 or 6060 shovels we use T1 for all structural repairs, then put Esco wing shrouds on, and change when needed. Nice pictures! Hope repair goes well!
    Yup I used 309 wire it made by Bohler the brand on it was Alvesta, Im not sure about either spelling, I know it was made in Austria, they got 5 rolls of it for a bit over 1700 bucks, I nearly **** my pants when the owner told me about it. He asked me are you sure this will work I said yes as long as you don't rush me and birddog me all day. In the same breath I told him this was his idea in the first place and that he wanted to do the experiment not me. I tried to talk him out of it when he first mentioned it, just because of the cost of the manganese plate and the wire to weld it.



    As far as what I did to weld it I just made a bit warm to the touch not hot at all. Welded about 8 inches on side then jumped to the other other side . and did 8 inches or so at another spot so as to keep it strait. I kept this up til it was closed in from one side or the other then backgouged it with the jetarc on the backside of each weld and then welding them, After that it was just a matter of welding about 18 inches on this side and 18 inches or so on that side, peening the livin crap out of it with my needle scaler, and repeat process til it was filled up. Kept my innerpass temp down to 300-350 as much as possible. I cut part of the top off and trimmed the bottom of and Gary was as happy as a shovel operator can be the next day. He had his doubts I told him get to digging it will stay put. It did, this was 2 years ago and the corners are just now starting to get rounded off and he runs this thing like a madman in that rock.

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    Re: Manganese plate

    Flip flopping from side to side is exactly what i woulda done too. Sounds like we have the same boss "You can't weld in a gale force wind? Why is this taking so long?" Mining is fun huh?😁😁😁😁
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    Re: Manganese plate

    309L is the premium wire to use. Bohler also makes some very nice running 7018. You also do some nice work.

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    Re: Manganese plate

    Quote Originally Posted by MISSING LINK View Post
    Flip flopping from side to side is exactly what i woulda done too. Sounds like we have the same boss "You can't weld in a gale force wind? Why is this taking so long?" Mining is fun huh?😁😁😁😁
    The guy that wanted to try the manganese is a good egg and for the most part leaves me alone, we have known each other since we were kids and he isn't my boss, I am independent and contracted to a welding contractor who gets these jobs for me, everything on that truck and the truck is mine except for the wire and the rods. Most of the time Joe the guy I am contracted to gets the wire and rods, for this job he told me to let them get the wire and the gas for this since it was their idea. I've known Gary, the operator of this beast, for years as well, he figured there was no way on Gods green earth, let alone this rock he digs with this shovel, that would stay put, he figured 2 days, and I told him before I started it that it would stat put.

    Yes I love mining. Except for the years when I was on the road hanging iron building power plants tanks ships and whatever else I could find to keep the bills paid I was workin in the mines. I started when I was 14 or 15 workin underground in a small bootleg hole, that when I learned to weld when I would rebuild the old boys mine buggies. I worked underground in a few mines for about 10 years and was welding this and that. This is my 2nd rig doin this work. I had a Big 40 on an old F350 I put together in a junkyard. Before I had the Big 40 I had 2 SA200 Pipeliners I put together using parts from 3 of them and . Mrs K has always stood by me whatever I tried to do..she knows I give my best evry day. That means more to me than anything

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    Re: Manganese plate

    Quote Originally Posted by theweldor View Post
    309L is the premium wire to use. Bohler also makes some very nice running 7018. You also do some nice work.

    Thank you. I would imagine Bohler does make good running 7018, the wire I used for this was excellent. From what I know about steel and welding history the best technology for it came out of Germany, Czechoslovakia, Austria and Poland back in the old days

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    Re: Manganese plate

    I run a lot of 8018C3. I always try to find a supplier that has something other than Lincoln wire. That stuff is absolute junk of late. As to Mrs. K. you are a very fortunate man. It is always nice to know that when you get home that someone realizes that you have given it your best.

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    Re: Manganese plate

    I took notice most of the rods I used the first time I had my own rig aren't what they used to be, I started noticing it on construction. But I do what I can with what I got, I don't do that much stick welding these days, I bought a wire feeder in 2002 and the thing has me spoiled rotten, I run Innershield NR 233 1/16" for most everything.

    She is a blessing, gets up make breakfast and sends me off with a big hug and a sloppy kiss, I always said I am the luckiest guy in the world for 39 years

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    Re: Manganese plate

    Naa i understand. Glad you have a good group that you work with. Guess i am tainted from the the corperate monster i work for. We have some genuinly great bosses that we work with, and some, well not so much. Never ment any offence.😁😁 I too know how it is to be gifted a great wife. She is a very understanding women as well. Keep in touch with the pictures, is great to see how others get things done! And again nice work!
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  23. #23
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    Re: Manganese plate

    Quote Originally Posted by MISSING LINK View Post
    Naa i understand. Glad you have a good group that you work with. Guess i am tainted from the the corperate monster i work for. We have some genuinly great bosses that we work with, and some, well not so much. Never ment any offence.���� I too know how it is to be gifted a great wife. She is a very understanding women as well. Keep in touch with the pictures, is great to see how others get things done! And again nice work!
    No offence was taken in any way. Maybe I came off sounding like I did when I said he wasn't my boss. If I did my apologies. The guys who I do the work for are pretty good to work with, they came up the hard way and like I said earlier most of us have known each other for many years. The anthracite coal industry is a small cottage industry. I think I heard it called that once. This area is the only area in the US anthracite is found, and there is very little of it found in the world. The guy and his brothers who own this outfit can be a hardass when they need to be and its a billion dollar outfit, but when his dad owned it he had the kids workin just like we do, so he and his brothers know the score and what a man has to do and put himself through to get it done. This is the old Philadelphia and Reading Coal and Iron outfit from back in the 1800s when the Mollie Maguires were battling Ol Franklin Gowen. A lot of that happened just over the mountain from me in Ashland PA.

    Thank you for the compliments, I know the work I do aint quite as pretty as some of the bucket work Ive seen here but I do what I can and as long as it stays together the rocks and dirt don't giva**** what it looks like

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