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Thread: Electrical requirements for new welder

  1. #26
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    Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

    Did you happen to look up the wiring guide on the Esab? It certainly doesnt mean its the same? In US Miller is bigger. I have read most of the manuals for Miller, some for Linc in smaller machines, not many of yellow. I think some of their 250 class are heavy duty like the MM252 but don't really work with them. Do the new 200 class use dvi?

  2. #27
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    Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

    I see the Rebel is dvi, the wire size is 12 compared to the Miller of 14. Doesn't have the exact same adapter, has an internal thermal breaker in the machine. Something noteworthy is where it says, low voltage may cause loss of power and poor operation, hi overheats it.

  3. #28
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    Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

    Here are the electrical specs for the ESAB I found:

    Name:  esab.jpg
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  4. #29
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    Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

    I was looking at this thread:

    https://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.ph...for-a-hobbyist

    I was thinking maybe I should look into a used Miller 211 transformer type if I can find one. I realize it wont do stick welding any thoughts?

  5. #30
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    Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

    What is your budget?
    Ed Conley
    http://www.screamingbroccoli.com/
    MM252
    MM211 (Sold)
    Passport Plus & Spool gun
    Lincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)
    Miller 125c Plasma 120v
    SO 2020 bender
    Beer in the fridge

  6. #31
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    Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

    If they are for sale? Most people gets them keep em. Along with budget what is the work? Sticks do have their place for field work and some machinery. Having said that I can really do what I do with a 211. My neighbor is typical except for an expert,, but typical needs, hasn't been over in 15 years to weld something since he got a 175. He got a pickup, a snowplow, couple little trailers, bandsaw mill etc and gets along just dandy.
    I like stick outdoor, on equipment, trailers, implement, pit stop structural stuff. Construction, hop around, drag a lead. If you are doing hobby/auto not such a deal. Wire feed works, rest gathers dust.

  7. #32
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    Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

    My budget is around $1500 to $2000. I'm open to maybe spending a little more if I have to but i don't have anything else for welding like a table, tank, welding helmet, metal chopsaw, pliers, gloves etc.

    I have a handful of jobs i need to do around the house such as:

    Detached hand railing on stairs
    wrought iron gate repair
    make a mulch plate to cover my scag mower chute
    fix up my 12ft aluminum boat.
    make a welding table.

  8. #33
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    Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

    If you want to do alum the cheapest way is spool gun. They list the use down to 14ga but I do 16 on it regularly.
    The industry has had a hard time raising prices on basic models, hence all the features. Most of them I really got no use for, auto this and that, they have limited use. Some models are near the same price the were 30 years ago, makes them a good buy.
    I might look at a basic unit, Hobart 190 or 210 if you need dvi, spool gun ready. A grand or so, I don't recall exact. Great arc, very reliable.
    If you do steady diet of auto body then 023 wire, if general these units run 030 well, small enough for light sheet and big enough to carry current for more punch for structural.
    Last edited by Sberry; 11-06-2019 at 10:30 AM.

  9. #34
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    Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

    As for other stuff. Since this is start out its different than what professionals often have, there is a lot of amateur advice from them.
    Grinder, 4 1/2 from Walmarts, 2 is better. Blades for sawzall, some cut off wheels and a couple 1/4. A welding hood, I actually like the HF better than some expensive ones, simple leather gloves you like. Pair of safety glasses. Some soapstoNE and sharpie markers. Find some kind of plate steel, I like 1/4 for this type thing, can set on horses or makeshift stand/bench for now. Some 11R vise grips, couple 6 r and search for some simple decent screw clamps and a pipe clamp.
    440 Channelock, 8 and 12 inch adjustable and a couple squares. Remodels secret weapon,,, maroone Scotchbrite.
    Last edited by Sberry; 11-06-2019 at 11:02 AM.

  10. #35
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    Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

    MM211 $1,315.00
    Rebate $150
    Welder $1,165.00

    Spoolmate 150 $458.00

    Total $1,623.00


    Hobart Handler MVP 210 WITH spool gun $999.00 Northern Tool


    C25 shielding gas for Mild steel- depends where ya live but probably looking at $200.00
    Argon for Alooominum.

    Then all the rest of the tools that Sberry mentioned.
    Ed Conley
    http://www.screamingbroccoli.com/
    MM252
    MM211 (Sold)
    Passport Plus & Spool gun
    Lincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)
    Miller 125c Plasma 120v
    SO 2020 bender
    Beer in the fridge

  11. #36
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    Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

    The Miller I originally wanted to get was the Miller 215

    https://store.cyberweld.com/mimu200muwe9.html

    I may take a look at the Hobart MVP 210.

    If I found a used Miller 211 transformer type welder what would be a fair price to pay? What would be considered too much?

  12. #37
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    Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

    I'm not sure the added Stick and Tig feature are worth it. But that's just me.

    It will bust the budget fo' sho though, by the time you add a spool gun, tanks of gas and the rest of the stuff.


    I wasn't a fan of the transformer MM211- had one. Hated it and sold it. BUT I know a lot of folks like them.

    I browse CL and never see them listed.
    Ed Conley
    http://www.screamingbroccoli.com/
    MM252
    MM211 (Sold)
    Passport Plus & Spool gun
    Lincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)
    Miller 125c Plasma 120v
    SO 2020 bender
    Beer in the fridge

  13. #38
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    Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

    Out of curiosity what didnt you like about the 211?
    What did you sell it for?

  14. #39
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    Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

    My progression.

    Learned on a Lincoln Weld Pac 100 120v machine.
    Then I purchased the Lincoln 135 Plus 120v ( Lived in an apt with a small garage)

    I liked both of those.

    Met up with a couple of guys from the forum at a Welding Meet/Get together and was able to try out the Miller Passport Plus. I was blown away with it's ability on 120v and smooth arc. Even using the spool gun with some AL wire on 120v.
    The Passport is an inverter based design and I really liked the arc characteristics. Best I can describe.

    I needed a welding machine to keep at home as I kept the Passport at the shop- bought the MM211 transformer as it was a wee bit cheaper than buying another Passport. Mainly for my wife's welding/art projects.

    She even noticed the difference in the arc and asked for the Passport back

    Kept the MM211 at work and it just never felt "good". It worked and all but just differently.

    The short whips on the small machines were starting to bother us so we spent some $$ for a longer whip- it did come attached to the MM252

    We sold the MM211- I think for $800.00 - about 6/7 years ago. I think the original price on the MM211 was 1k. It was on CL for a couple hours, people like the Blue machines.

    I still prefer the Passport out of all the machines, even the 252.

    I imagine since the new machines are inverter based I'd like them too.

    again though- lots of people like their transformer MM211.
    Ed Conley
    http://www.screamingbroccoli.com/
    MM252
    MM211 (Sold)
    Passport Plus & Spool gun
    Lincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)
    Miller 125c Plasma 120v
    SO 2020 bender
    Beer in the fridge

  15. #40
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    Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

    I own the ESAB Rebel 215ic, bought it when it first came out, it's a great machine. I use it mostly for MIG and flux core for 14g - 1/2 in steel. It runs fine off of 20 amp circuit for 14 ga, anything heavier I run it off my generator. I upgraded to the Rebel from the ESAB miniarc 161, which was a fantastic machine if you just want to do just stick welding, at 1/3 the cost of the Rebel. But since upgrading to the Rebel I've only used the stick welding function 1 time and that was to burn holes in thick metal. For thinner gauge metal like 14-11 ga, I find it much easier to get quality welds with MIG/Flux core.

    Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

  16. #41
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    Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

    Quote Originally Posted by jd442 View Post
    Here are the electrical specs for the ESAB I found:

    Name:  esab.jpg
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Size:  110.9 KB
    That chart is kind of interesting. Note the 2 different max ocpd ratings,, ha. I bet that's confusing to more than one diy type, maybe even some pros.

  17. #42
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    Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

    Quote Originally Posted by Sberry View Post
    That chart is kind of interesting. Note the 2 different max ocpd ratings,, ha. I bet that's confusing to more than one diy type, maybe even some pros.
    Not at all. Basic fuses, circuit breakers are suggested at one rating. For those pushing the limits, using the full limits of permission in code there is another value.

    If a over current protective device is too fast acting it might trip under inrush current. A device slower to react won't trip quick enough to react to inrush.

    Magnetic loads are limited in current by magnetic impedence. At the instant they are turned on, there is no magnetic field, no magnetic impedence. Current, measured in amperes, will skyrocket until magnetic field builds.

    The infinite variables in how fast a OCPD reacts dictate the rating needed to get past the first 1/4 second.

    NEC gives permission for welders to try it out. If a Over Current Protective Device trips under normal load, you are allowed to increase rating incrementally to a complicated limit.

    Reality is, inverter welders will perform at near their maximum output with a breaker sized at their max input.

    Depending on the speed the fuse or breaker reacts, a transformer based welder might trip instantly before load is applied, just from inrush.
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

  18. #43
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    Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

    I understand this but is it clear to the diy that reads it? The "13" wire it lists is only good for 30A, with a larger wire it is allowed on up to 50.
    Last edited by Sberry; 12-05-2019 at 09:54 PM.

  19. #44
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    Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

    You find most welder use 6-50 plug.
    I have welder that came with 6-50 plug and needs 20 amp breaker.

    Now wiring for a new welder , run for 50 amps and 6-50R even need smaller breaker, it save money later.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by jd442 View Post
    Hi, new to welding here. Looking into purchasing my first welder. My two choices are Miller mulitmatic 215 or ESAB Rebel 215ic. I wanted to know the requirements for the electrical panel. I dont have many open spots in the panel.. I have 200amp service to the house. I wanted to have an outlet put in the garage.

    My question is what size circuit breaker do i need? I see in the documentation it says a NEMA Type 6−50P. Does that mean it needs to be a 50amp breaker? I thought I read somewhere 30amp breaker.
    What wire gauge size would I need? Not sure if I will run the line myself or have an electrician do it, but I do need to know what to ask for.


    Also, any recommendation over the Miller 215 or the Esab Rebel 215? I want to use it for fixing things around the house. Probably some stick welding and repairing a small aluminum boat using a spool gun.
    Last edited by smithdoor; 12-06-2019 at 01:34 AM.
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  20. #45
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    Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

    NEC 630.12(A) Overcurrent protection shall be not more than 200% of I1max. If I1max is not given, 200% of rated primary current of the welder.

    Sometimes there is no standard available overcurrent device at 200%. If the next smaller overcurrent device results in unnecessary nuisance tripping, it can be upgraded to the next higher available device.

    I have never seen nuisance tripping much higher than I1max, or rated input. A 60 amp I1max, or rated primary, I would begin with a 60 amp breaker. I've never powered a NEMA 6-50 receptacle with more than a 60 amp breaker, or smaller wire than #6 copper.
    The Lincoln big as a refrigerator in my garage is hard wired with #2, and 100 amp breaker.
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

  21. #46
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    Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

    The 255 will certainly tolerate a 60, the only pRobles is other machines may use the same outlet, machines limited to 50A. To the other poster,, this is a little about what I was getting at. Your machine that comes with a 50 end is legal on a 50 circuit. A 20 or 30 is the Max when used with the minimum wire size. On a larger wire,,,, one able to support short circuit it's legal to use on 50. It comes with 50 end, if it was limited to 20 or 30 would come with those ends.
    The instructions are written for electricians, the manuals really need a lay section due to diy on these small machines.

  22. #47
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    Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

    I admire Willies fine mind for electric, years ahead of mine, I will never get there.

  23. #48
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    Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

    Quote Originally Posted by Sberry View Post
    I understand this but is it clear to the diy that reads it? The "13" wire it lists is only good for 30A, with a larger wire it is allowed on up to 50.
    Never seen #13 wire. I'd guess you have to use #12.

    As for DIY: Everything I've ever seen avoids telling people how to do it. NEC code handbook is thousands of pages. It lists millions of rules, not a paragraph of how to do it in the book! I feel if people are going to do it themselves anyway, I prefer they do it more safely, not less. Someday I may get sued for somebody taking my advice, but it hasn't happened yet.
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

  24. #49
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    Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

    One thing to remember the minimum wire sizes are single circuit in pipe, a cable needs a size larger. With the Esab,,, it would be limited to 30 with a "13" wire (here the Hobarts and others list 14/30, if it was 12 in pipe or 10 cable could use a 50, same as a buzzer.
    BTW, never had a 50 welder trip a 50. Had one trip a 40 once ironically at lower current running nickel. Never had one trip up throwing the switch on. Used a lot of them over decades, first 10 years must have used a hundred different machines.

  25. #50
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    Re: Electrical requirements for new welder

    Melting alloy fuses are the fastest acting I've dealt with. Circuit breakers, less so.
    Welders aren't actually doing work when you turn them on. Motors are the worst. I have a number of 15 and 16 amp power tools. They routinely blow a 20 amp breaker the instant of start up.

    I don't believe inverters have much inrush at all. Transformers less than motors. I used to use a lot of 5/32" SMAW rods, they'd blow a 60 amp breaker now & then. I figured time to let the welder & breaker cool. The Lincoln 300-300 Rated 60% duty cycle at 300 amps, but capable of well over 400 amps would trip a 60 every start up.
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

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