Does the 210 mvp really have 20 more amps then the 190?

[aadad]

Hello guys im trying to decide between the 210 mvp or the 190 (110v is a non issue). I've read a bunch and people seem to say the arc on the 190 is better then the 210 mvp. Does the 210 really have 20 more amps then the 190? has anyone measured this or is it just a selling gimmick. Ideally i would like to get a hold of an ironman 230, but I feel like i'll never use it to its full capabilities. Thanks

[Louie1961]

I had a 190, never had a 210, and now have a Millermatic 252. Seriously, get the bigger machine if you can afford it. You will be glad you did in the long run.

[Rondo]

Check the actual usable output with a DC tongs on the ground cable while welding. The 190 will likely show 130 and the 210 will likely show around 150. They all do a play on numbers. For instance the Lincoln 115v is called a 140 and it puts out around 85 amps. The folks that have never put tongs on the cables will argue that the machines put out what the numbers say.

[BD1]

Check the DUTY CYCLE on both machines.

[Munkul]

Check the actual usable output with a DC tongs on the ground cable while welding. The 190 will likely show 130 and the 210 will likely show around 150. They all do a play on numbers. For instance the Lincoln 115v is called a 140 and it puts out around 85 amps. The folks that have never put tongs on the cables will argue that the machines put out what the numbers say.

That's highly subjective depending on wire type, wire size, wire speed, gas mix, etc.... Most MIG welders will rarely be used at their maximum rated amperage anyways, since usually people size them to their intended use... i.e you buy a 200 amp machine to do a load of sheet metal and railings etc up to 1/8" thick... in this range you're unlikely to want more than 170 amps tops

[Rondo]

That's highly subjective depending on wire type, wire size, wire speed, gas mix, etc.... Most MIG welders will rarely be used at their maximum rated amperage anyways, since usually people size them to their intended use... i.e you buy a 200 amp machine to do a load of sheet metal and railings etc up to 1/8" thick... in this range you're unlikely to want more than 170 amps tops

I have a 300 amp machine that loves 16ga, 14ga, 1/8 etc. Max output doesn't have anything to do with what you are building. Use what ever wire and gas you use and the DC tongs will tell you what you want to know for that wire and gas.

[Louie1961]

Just for the record, the HH 190 will do whatever you ask of it up to a quarter inch of thickness. I loved mine, the only reason I got rid of it was because I got a deal on the MM 252, and just couldn't resist. However I still say if you are doing a lot of quarter inch material or thicker, get the Ironman 230. It is worth the extra money, and it welds the thin stuff just as well as any other machine. If Bonzoo was around he more than second that recommendation.

[aadad]

I've narrowed it down to the 210 mvp and 230. I sometimes build and work on farm equipment.

[Welder Dave]

Get the 230 if you can afford it. You can't add amps but you can turn them down if required. The 230 rolls around on it's own, has a higher duty cycle and allows the use of 12" spools of wire which are cheaper per pound. You could run small diameter dual shield flux-core too.

[MinnesotaDave]

Check the actual usable output with a DC tongs on the ground cable while welding. The 190 will likely show 130 and the 210 will likely show around 150. They all do a play on numbers. For instance the Lincoln 115v is called a 140 and it puts out around 85 amps. The folks that have never put tongs on the cables will argue that the machines put out what the numbers say.

...well technically it'll put out approx 140 amps for about 1 minute out of 10 - if you feed it enough electricity

It needs 20 amps 120v AC to put out 90 amps at 20% duty cycle.

It needs about 25 amps input to reach 140 amps of brief output (probably more):

2. Requirements For Maximum Output
In order to utilize the maximum output capability of
the machine, a branch circuit capable of 25 amps at
120 volts, 60 Hertz is required.

...so yeah...it's a game

[Brand X]

Put a accurate amp meter, and volt meter on the machine and they might surprise you.. I had little Klutch 120 volt machines output 170 amps, solid 18.5 volts.. My little 160 esab is over 200 amps, and 20 volts real easy..The 210 will be similar in output probably 22 volts the output The 190 will not have the voltage output of the 210.. forget the amps really, it's what you can push it in voltage when running around 200 amps.

[aadad]

I went with the ironman 230. thanks guys.

[Brand X]

I went with the ironman 230. thanks guys.

That will have enough voltage to spray-arc .030 pretty well. Also will run some dual shield wire. Better option if you do not have to move it much..

[Rondo]

Put a accurate amp meter, and volt meter on the machine and they might surprise you.. I had little Klutch 120 volt machines output 170 amps, solid 18.5 volts.. My little 160 esab is over 200 amps, and 20 volts real easy..The 210 will be similar in output probably 22 volts the output The 190 will not have the voltage output of the 210.. forget the amps really, it's what you can push it in voltage when running around 200 amps.

I agree. It's really not about amps.

[Welder Dave]

I think you made a good choice.

[aadad]

so far testing it with .030 Lincoln wire, I like it a lot. I'm used to welding pulse with our Miller access 450. I've also welded with our millermatic 252 in our tooling building and I feel the Hobart seems to have a better arch, it also seems to produce less spatter also. it wets the edges quite nicely, so far I'm pretty happy I went with this machine.

[Munkul]

I have a 300 amp machine that loves 16ga, 14ga, 1/8 etc. Max output doesn't have anything to do with what you are building. Use what ever wire and gas you use and the DC tongs will tell you what you want to know for that wire and gas.

My actual welder gauges tell me that, because I make sure my MIG sets have ammeters built in

[MinnesotaDave]

Put a accurate amp meter, and volt meter on the machine and they might surprise you.. I had little Klutch 120 volt machines output 170 amps, solid 18.5 volts.. My little 160 esab is over 200 amps, and 20 volts real easy..The 210 will be similar in output probably 22 volts the output The 190 will not have the voltage output of the 210.. forget the amps really, it's what you can push it in voltage when running around 200 amps.

Respectfully, I'd like to partially disagree with your description.

In my opinion it would be more accurate to say that the max amps only count if the machine will also output the required volts for the machine to weld properly at that amperage.

So if a machine "maxes out" by the factory manual at 200 amps with the required voltage to do so - but as the machine goes above those amps the volts fall off - then that's why that amperage is the maximum listed.

Additional random thought, my 90's Millermatc 210 is rated at 210 amps max at 230 volts input. Since my power grid gives me about 245 volts input, and the manual notes that the door chart will be different with different input voltages, I'd bet my machine puts out more max amps (and volts at said amperage) than is listed in the manual.

Another ADD moment - since the machines are listed by duty cycles at 104 degF, and since duty cycle increases as ambient temps decrease, it might stand to reason that at colder ambient temps they would output more due to efficiency lost at the higher ambient temps.

[Meltedmetal]

I have a question for the physicists. If a heat sink of say 10 square inches at 250 degrees F can dissipate "X" amount of calories/BTU's per minute into 104 degree F air can it dissipate more/faster into 70 degree F air? I don't know, I'm just curious.

[Brand X]

My point was, because you have 210 amps, or 160 amps,,tell you very little about what a machine can really do.. My Esab 160 should fall off to nothing, but low and behold it will weld as thick as any Hobart 210.. So going by manufacturers amp# is mostly useless. Put .030 wire in two machines that have the same 140 amp rating.. One will run C02 gas, and the other will fall on it's face. Yes it's voltage that does the work.. Not ratings in amps..shows it can do work maybe, but not how much in the real word of real welding setups.

[MinnesotaDave]

I have a question for the physicists. If a heat sink of say 10 square inches at 250 degrees F can dissipate "X" amount of calories/BTU's per minute into 104 degree F air can it dissipate more/faster into 70 degree F air? I don't know, I'm just curious.

Yes, when the temperature differential is larger, the dissipation is faster.

The closer the 2 temperatures get together, the slower the temperature changes.

The graph would look like exponential decay (use the "way back" machine to high school math)
see also: Newton's Law of Cooling

[MinnesotaDave]

My point was, because you have 210 amps, or 160 amps,,tell you very little about what a machine can really do.. My Esab 160 should fall off to nothing, but low and behold it will weld as thick as any Hobart 210.. So going by manufacturers amp# is mostly useless. Put .030 wire in two machines that have the same 140 amp rating.. One will run C02 gas, and the other will fall on it's face. Yes it's voltage that does the work.. Not ratings in amps..shows it can do work maybe, but not how much in the real word of real welding setups.

I still think we slightly differ in how we view machines. I can't overlook amperage since amps are what control penetration.

I think my only real point (not including my ADD moments ) is that amperage, with the proper volts to run a correct bead, should be viewed together.

If a machine is under-rated and can output more amps/volts than the manufacturer says, and has enough duty cycle to make it viable, I say Congratulations to the manufacturer and the owner

There are a couple things that bother me about manufacturer ratings.
When they say a machine is 140 amps, but is rated at 90 amps/20% duty cycle, that's pretty misleading to an average consumer.
Add to that the need (in fine print in the manual) for 25 amps AC input to achieve the 140 amps - which is also a dirty tactic for a company since almost no one would have a plug-in with that rating unless the installed it just for this application.

I really like the industrial method for rating.
Naming a machine the 'cool_name'250 means 250 amps/60% duty cycle and the machine tops out at 300+amps with a still usable duty cycle.

[Welder Dave]

It's the same deal with small air compressors. 5HP 115 volt motor, yeah right! Larger welders seem to have more accurate data advertised.

[MinnesotaDave]

It's the same deal with small air compressors. 5HP 115 volt motor, yeah right! Larger welders seem to have more accurate data advertised.

Yep, those compressor stats are laughable

[Brand X]

One thing.. If you run a decent 140 amp mig (inverter) on a good 20 amp circuit. It will allow that machine to perform pretty well before the breaker snaps.. Very usable to have a small machine that pulls more out of the wall, and wets out the weld bead . The advantage in a machine that can output more and draw more on a 20 amp circuit is it can be setup with a smaller 120 volt generator, and work really well. Goes with 120-120-240 volt plasma cutters too. The ones that stop input draw to 20 amps only, are really pretty weak overall. Pull a little more off that line even with the standard 20 makes all the difference in the world.. Big boys have been doing that for years. Even inverter stick machines too Glad they give you a choice to how much you want to push it..