mig vs oxy/acetylene for beginner

[moron88]

a little background; when i was a teen (probably 15) my mother bought me a harbor freight flux core welder. to date, that is the first and only welder i've ever used. havent touched the thing in years. i was able to make structurally sound welds, but never anything pretty. i also briefly had one of those little mag torch disposable tank oxy/mapp setups.

when i first heard about the covid economic relief bill, and the possible stimulus check, i knew exactly what i'd spend mine on. a decent welder. welp, i just got mine. i was looking at multi-process welders, and the one that caught my eye was the lincoln 31mp. pretty much the cheapest name brand multi-process i can pick up in store. i know it's 120 only, which is fine because i only have 120 in my garage. but, while at the store the other day, i saw a torch for a bit over 100, and initially thought about getting the lincoln and a cheap torch setup. now, i'm leaning towards just getting a decent torch setup. looking around online, it looks like i could get a full setup including a cutting head and a brazing/welding tip for around 600. add in bottles, and i'll be at around the same investment either way.

so what do yall think? should i get the lincoln? get a dedicated mig? go oxy? initial projects will be probably a workbench, a cart for whatever i get, and then a new headache rack for my truck.

locally, i have a graingers, airgas and praxair along with a couple small local shops and the big box stores.

[Rondo]

As far as the torch goes, The new versions of the top brands are not what they used to be. There are many after market torches out there now that will easily last 15 years for under $200 complete. A torch set is really handy but for building projects I would have to vote for Mig or Stick. Again welders come in all shapes sizes and costs as well. Nothing wrong with good used stuff either. I see used 115v Hobarts and Lincolns in good used shape for $250 and you can get a $150 torch, add tanks and you are still within your figures. Good luck on you choices.

[G-son]

I started out with a Henrob type O/A torch 10 years ago, partly because the garage I work in doesn't have 400 volt three phase as a descent electrical welder needs here, and partly because it's suitable for the thin sheet metal welding I was planning (tuned twostroke exhausts). I've added another type torch since then, but still no electrical welders. Use it for welding, brazing, general heating and occasionally cutting.

Today I'd like to add a stick welder for welding thicker metal. O/A can handle quite a bit of thickness (assuming the tanks are large enough) but I doubt you'll like the heat radiating from it or paying for the gas you use if you have other options. Stick welders can be relatively cheap, so adding one later shouldn't break the bank.

What's right for YOU? I have no idea. Not a lot of people start out with O/A today, but it was right for me.

[Kelvin]

You can't beat O/A for versatility. Also great for learning the techniques you'll use for TIG if you ever go that way.

I think I'd probably go with O/A, then spend some $ to get 240VAC, then get an electric welder...

Good luck with whatever you choose.

[BD1]

A torch is definitely a handy tool to have. There are many post about torch sets and tanks. Basically BEFORE you buy anything ,Check with local supplier on THEIR exchange policy. Everyone is different and some may only exchange their cylinders. Some used tanks are past certification dates. This means they need to be recertified. Ask about that too. Some charge $25.00 or more. Sometimes buying tanks from local supplier will avoid frustration.
Smith and Victory gets my choice for setups.

As for mig, since you have only 110 volts I would look for a used machine. IF you plan on adding 220 volt circuit then consider a multi volt machine 110/220.
Many buy the 110 volt machines and use a few times and then it sits. Other buy it and realize it doesn't have enough amps or duty cycle and sell to upgrade.
I prefer a dedicated process machine over those multi process ones. All of the 110 machines run best on a dedicated circuit. A 20 amp is usually ok depending on amps you are using. Using an extension cord isn't the best with any of the small machines. A 30 amp circuit with matching wire is about the best you can do.
I prefer Miller or Lincoln but Hobart will be fine.
Buying used you may find a complete setup ready to use instead of buying machine and then have to buy a tank. Your location will determine prices. Many sellers try to get almost full price on sed machines. Shop wisely and ASK about machine BEFORE you buy !

[Oscar]

120V for MIG is useless unless you can provide 30A to the circuit through minimum 10awg conductors, which at that point you could have already ran a 240V circuit. A standard 20A circuit for MIG is useless, unless if you use gasless flux core, which could reasonably do 1/8" or so, right around there. Any thicker and you need 240V @ 30A. Another option is a dual-voltage stick welder, since on 120V you would be able to run up to 1/8" E6011 electrode (or 6010 if it can run it) for a deeper penetrating arc on up to 1/4" or so, and for nicer looking welds 3/32" E7014/E7018/E6013. Moron88, do you know how to stick weld? Right now would be a great time to learn it. O/A is nice to have too, but are you going to be able to run to your gas supplier/LWS to keep refueling on acetylene and oxygen tanks? Keep in mind Acetylene does have limits on withdrawal rates so you don't go getting yourself in trouble. Have you considered this with the torches/tips you plan on running, by way of looking at fuel consumption charts for CFH for boty acetylene and oxygen??

[TimmyTIG]

I tried to do some O/A welding recently after my welder crapped the bed, I couldn't get t to work with TIG wire. I ordered up and new machine this morning after I got my stimulus check direct deposit.

[tapwelder]

I would consider a small inverter stick welder. I run my esab off household current frequently and they are cheaper. Then a torch setup with propane, but for non welding operations. I like o/a welding, however it is not always practical for every position and weld joint setup. E.g. try it under a car near a fuel tank. Or a install a rail that is 2 feet stay from vinyl siding.

[Louie1961]

Put the money into a 240 volt circuit and start out with an inexpensive used stick welder.

[moron88]

thanks for all the replies guys. i tried going to airgas and praxair today but couldnt... due to covid-19, airgas is only doing curbside and i couldnt even find praxair. after what i have read here and talking with my step-dad, i've decided to go ahead and get the torch. running 240 isnt viable right now and the garage doesnt have 30A service. plus, we both work on our trucks, and lately we've have a few instances where a torch would have been quite handy. he's willing to split the cost of the refills, so bonus.

now it's time to look for a setup... i checked craigslist and while i've found a few setups, all were either 500+, 50+ miles away, or both. at that point i'd rather buy new and have some sort of warranty. i'm going to get the cylinders from airgas once i have the torch. so, any suggestions on a good all-around setup? anything i should look for in regulators, handles, nozzles etc?

[Welder Dave]

How thick of material do you want to weld? Acetylene is expensive especially if you're just learning/practicing. I think you want a Mig welder to start and 220V is a big improvement.

[TimmyTIG]

If you don't have the electrical requirements, you should just get an engine driven welder. You ain't gonna want to build anything with oxy/acetylene welding.

[tapwelder]

If you don't have the electrical requirements, you should just get an engine driven welder. You ain't gonna want to build anything with oxy/acetylene welding.

Not true. I have done it. That was my portable welder starting out. However, I would not advise it. 1/8" is probably the limit you will want to weld on whatever home setup you have, otherwise your welds become expensive. Also, everything with in 2 + feet in the flame will get hot and is subject to melt, burn, discolor. You won't want to be doing it if it gets hot where you live..add 20 degrees to your hottest day.

However you can do a lot with a stick welder on 120v. Stick will be cheaper and easier to get going. Acetylene is not cheap, either.

[thegary]

You can't go wrong by getting a A/O torch set . With that said gas is expensive I use mine only when it is the most efficient way and or the fastest way to do a job. There are many inverter welders out there that run on both 120 and 240V . They will run 3/32 stick rod all day on 120V. 1/8 - 3/16 with 023 or .030 wire for 120V mig is doable with a 20amp circuit. Then if later you get 240V the machine can do that too.

FYI do not get the little bottles for your A/O torch set . They empty fast so get the largest your budget will allow. You will have as much money in the bottles as you do in the torch set or more.

[BaTu]

Not to just repeat whats been said,,, But ya gotta have a Torch if you're going to "work" metal.

AND, Nothing is a better teacher of the welding process, what the puddle should look like and how to manipulate it, than learning to Gas Weld. You'll end-up being a better weldor with every process

[Louie1961]

running 240 isnt viable right now and the garage doesnt have 30A service.

How far is it from the house to the garage? You could always invest in an appropriately sized extension cord and plug it into a range or dryer outlet. Especially for the inverters or small transformer welders like a Miller Thunderbolt. 100 feet of 8/3 SOOW would run you about $240. With the right plugs for each end you might be out another $50 or so.

[moron88]

i went to a local weld shop and they actually let me in! after a little discussion with the staff, i wound up getting a victor medalist 250 and a pair of #4 cylinders. fills werent too bad either, about $55 for the acetylene and $18 for the oxy. ended up paying a bit more than i was hoping, but far less than i was expecting. i appreciate all the help you guys gave, even if i ended up not fallowing what you said.


to answer a few questions after the fact, i plan on working with mostly small stuff. max 1/4" for the time being. may get into larger down the road, but i can easily upgrade my rig piece by piece as needed. first few projects will be using 1/8" wall or thinner tubing with 1/8-3/16" sheet.

basement to garage is about 80 feet. at that point, i'd be better off just running the line.


i forgot that a couple years ago i bought a CHEAP stick welder (like $90 from menards). never used it... may try finding that. also have a decent generator (6000 running watts iirc) which has a 230v outlet... think that could run a welder? the 120s on that are only 15a, so not really better than what the garage has. i'm happy with my purchase, but my stepdad might be inclined to take some of his stimulus check and use it on a good welder (we're both essential personnel).

[snoeproe]

If you attend welding school, the first thing you learn is to use a gas torch. You learn fusion welding, braze welding, heating and cutting with the gas torch.
You can really do anything with a gas torch. Is it the most practical or economical? No. But it is the most versatile. It doesn’t require electricity so it is portable.

[moron88]

If you attend welding school, the first thing you learn is to use a gas torch. You learn fusion welding, braze welding, heating and cutting with the gas torch.
You can really do anything with a gas torch. Is it the most practical or economical? No. But it is the most versatile. It doesn’t require electricity so it is portable.

havent applied yet, but i am seriously thinking about it. have been for months. local CC has a straight cert course, no other requirements from what i can tell.

[Welder Dave]

I don't think they teach much if any oxy/acetylene welding and brazing anymore. Even stick welding is falling by the wayside. O/A was part of my apprenticeship training as was O/A welding and brazing cast iron. Everything was either bent or broken, in the case of cast iron, to insure there was proper fusion.

[snoeproe]

I don't think they teach much if any oxy/acetylene welding and brazing anymore. Even stick welding is falling by the wayside. O/A was part of my apprenticeship training as was O/A welding and brazing cast iron. Everything was either bent or broken, in the case of cast iron, to insure there was proper fusion.

I'm a college instructor these days. The first thing they learn is oxy fuel. I also do a lot of stick with them. These are still absolute requirements in welding school.

[Welder Dave]

They should be but sadly a lot of the training centers are too focused on wire feed processes. For the OP Victor is a good brand but you'll need a pretty big tip to weld 1/8" and I wouldn't consider O/A for anything thicker. It won't tell you in the manual how to properly equalize each individual torch tip. It will probably say to put pressures the same but there is a much better fool proof method to equalize any size of welding tip that doesn't rely on what the gauge says. It relies on what the specific tip does. I posted it in the past so will see if I can find it. It's simple but takes a lot to explain it. Not having the torch balanced will result in a lot more backfiring(popping) and could possibly lead to a flashback. Make sure to get a set of tip cleaners but only insert them 1 or 2 times when cleaning so you don't wear the tip oval or larger.

I found it. That was easier than I thought.

Re: Noob torch handle and welding tip question
That's how a book will tell you how to balance a torch but it's flawed. Every tip has a maximum useable gas flow and you use that to balance each individual tip.

First loosen the regulators right off but have the cylinder valves turned on.
Then turn in the acet. screw so that you have enough fuel to light the torch.
With the torch lit open the acet. valve on the torch all the way open.
Slowly turn in the adjusting screw and watch the flame getting bigger. When the flame jumps away from the tip is the indication that this is the maximum gas flow the tip can handle. The pressure on the regulator gauge does not matter. Often times it barely moves.
Now turn the acet. torch valve down so the flame is still in contact with the tip and open the oxygen valve on the torch all the way open.
Slowly turn the oxy adjusting screw in and watch the flame turn blue.
Once you have enough of a blue flame, open the acet. torch valve all the way.
Turn the oxygen adjusting screw in until you just get rid of the outer flame feather. You should have rounded flame cones, pointed means too much oxygen.
Your torch is close to being balanced now but not quite.
With both torch valves still fully open and your neutral flame, very slowly turn in the acet. adjuster screw and see if the flame gets the outer feather back.
If the flame stays the same, back off the acet. adjuster screw and then turn it in again to get your neutral flame back.
Most times the flame will change slightly when you turn in the acet. adjuster after your initial neutral flame.
If the feather comes back, slowly turn in the oxy adjuster screw to get your neutral flame back.
Then repeat this procedure of turning in the acet. adjuster screw to see if the flame changes.
Usually doesn't take more than 2 tries.

Your torch tip is now balanced. Every tip will need to be balanced separately. It seems like a lot of work but isn't really. You can throttle down the flame with the torch valves but you want to stay around 75% open or more because too low of flow through the tip can cause back firing. This is a common problem with rosebud heating tips. If the flame is still too hot, use a smaller tip. Rosebuds and cutting attachments don't need to have balanced pressures. In the case of a rosebud, higher oxygen pressure is used because it helps to cool the torch head.

[moron88]

dave, if i read that right, i'm fully opening the knobs on the handle and using the regulator output screws to tune the flame? definitely seems like one of those stupid easy things to do but takes a textbook to explain what you're doing. will be taking a screenshot of that post on my phone. thanks.

[Rondo]

NO. You need to watch a couple Youtube vids on Torch safety and setup. Only takes a few minutes.

[moron88]

i'm glad i found weld.com on youtube last week when i was first looking into getting a welder. they have what seems to be a very good video