Inverter Tig on 20 amp 120V?

[TraditionalToolworks]

With the sale on the Everlast machine, I could get an upgrade to a flex torch and a Nova pedal, shipped for about $100 less than the Primeweld.

I don't believe you, and I have both. The rotohead torch is still a cheap Chinese torch, IMO, and my Nova pedal squeaks which is annoying. I don't care if it has a better potentiometer in it or not, the squeak is annoying when I press on it.

Look, the bottom line is you need to make your own decision. I have no idea how Primeweld is able to ship a machine they do at the price with the CK torch, the warranty and pay shipping on top of it. I can understand anyone's skepticism. But I have one sitting in my shop and I'm a believer 100%. Not only is the machine everything any claimed it to be, but the owner of the company is a top notch guy to deal with, and that's not the same experience I've had with Oleg and Mark.

If you can get it for cheaper, go ahead, I'm certainly not trying to stop you. Also, you can't just go buy a Primeweld because they sell out of stock so fast you need to order them on the same day the shipment comes in. Most people need to get on the email list. But I think there's a reason they sell out so quickly, and I think the reason they arrive working in all cases to date is that Mike must test them and make sure everything is in order before shipping, but I don't know that and I've never asked Mike about that as mine was no different.

[Willie B]

I was mistaken. I knew inverters were higher frequency but didn't remember how high, 20,000-100,000hz.

https://www.millerwelds.com/resource...rease-downtime

TIG welders produce simultaneously two power sources superimposed on one another. Mostly HF (High Frequency) is at the arc initiation with DC TIG, or continuous with AC.

This is about the need to ionize shielding gas to make it conductive.

In DC we start the ionization, the continuous flow of electrons maintains ionization.

In AC current levels fall to zero twice per cycle. The electrode negative half cycle initiates easily. The concentration of electrons on the sharpened tip of a tungsten readily ionizes gas.
On the return trip, the aluminum oxide resists the flow of electrons, and they are dispersed.

Especially important in sine wave AC power welders, HF stabilizes ionization.
Less important in square wave welders, polarity transitions are so sudden, ionization is maintained.

The high frequency you refer to does little to melt metal. Voltage is very high, frequency is high, but wattage is very low. The high current, lower voltage, high power also flowing through the same arc does the melting for the most part. Typically 30-50 volts, 60-300 amps at no frequency in DC, or fixed 60 cycles old transformer machines, or 20-400 on newer inverter machines.

We'll get into Syncrowave at another time.

[31Slant]

TraditionalToolworks, sorry, I did not mean to push any buttons, that was not my intent. I do appreciate your input especially since you have experience with both machines. You are absolutely right that it is my decision and I need to make it and move on. Thanks for taking the time to share your insight and help me out.

Thanks to everyone who has responded to my questions, your answers have been beneficial and I have learned a lot!

[TraditionalToolworks]

TraditionalToolworks, sorry, I did not mean to push any buttons, that was not my intent. I do appreciate your input especially since you have experience with both machines. You are absolutely right that it is my decision and I need to make it and move on. Thanks for taking the time to share your insight and help me out.

Thanks to everyone who has responded to my questions, your answers have been beneficial and I have learned a lot!

No worries, no buttons pressed, but online text is 2 dimensional so maybe it seems like you pressed some buttons.

I only offered you my experience with both, and up in post #7 I outlined the costs.

Even if you don't count the cost of a CK17 flexhead, the sale price on the i-Tig 201 is $600. Add $100 for the pedal puts you at $700, then you need to pay tax which is probably $50-$60, and if you only paid $30 shipping you're as much or already over the price of the Primeweld. I know Everlast will tell you their torch is every bit as good as a CK, but the reality is I just saw someone who has a Everlast 20 torch that the rubber is rotting. Is this coincidence for a Chinese torch? I think not. The newer Everlast torches are not too bad, but the hose is not as flexible or proven as the CK, that much I can say with certainty no matter what Everlast tells you. I do have both, and bought a genuine CK17 flexhead for my green weenie. And this is for a machine that doesn't even do AC with 25 less amps, and less amps on 120v! This is exactly why I hard a hard time believing you.

Even if you compare the AHP (which I wouldn't buy as I've said) it is more comparable, but you still get the crappy consumables and deal with the same deceptive people.

You could have reasons that you don't need a genuine CK17 flexhead or why you don't need a 3 year warranty with shipping provided both way, or why you don't need shipping paid for on the initial purchase, but I'm giving you every opportunity to lay those number out and show how it's cheaper. Why you wouldn't want those features is kind of beyond me.

I'd love to see how your numbers add up, can you lay them out?

[Welder Dave]

TIG welders produce simultaneously two power sources superimposed on one another. Mostly HF (High Frequency) is at the arc initiation with DC TIG, or continuous with AC.

This is about the need to ionize shielding gas to make it conductive.

In DC we start the ionization, the continuous flow of electrons maintains ionization.

In AC current levels fall to zero twice per cycle. The electrode negative half cycle initiates easily. The concentration of electrons on the sharpened tip of a tungsten readily ionizes gas.
On the return trip, the aluminum oxide resists the flow of electrons, and they are dispersed.

Especially important in sine wave AC power welders, HF stabilizes ionization.
Less important in square wave welders, polarity transitions are so sudden, ionization is maintained.

The high frequency you refer to does little to melt metal. Voltage is very high, frequency is high, but wattage is very low. The high current, lower voltage, high power also flowing through the same arc does the melting for the most part. Typically 30-50 volts, 60-300 amps at no frequency in DC, or fixed 60 cycles old transformer machines, or 20-400 on newer inverter machines.

We'll get into Syncrowave at another time.

I wasn't referring to Tig welders specifically. I was referring more to how an inverter power source produces welding current using a much higher frequency and electronics than how a transformer machine makes welding current. I was aware of the Miller article so thought it would make more sense than I could. I'm amazed they can make a 400 amp inverter that's the size of a bankers box.

[Willie B]

I wasn't referring to Tig welders specifically. I was referring more to how an inverter power source produces welding current using a much higher frequency and electronics than how a transformer machine makes welding current. I was aware of the Miller article so thought it would make more sense than I could. I'm amazed they can make a 400 amp inverter that's the size of a bankers box.

Mine is only 280. On occasion I've used helium 52 LBS.

[Welder Dave]

A similar transformer would be 350-400lbs.

[Oscar]

This is another thing I am confused about as the max inrush is 31.2A and the max operating amps is 19A. I am guessing the inrush amps is during arc initiation? At lower amps the inrush could be a lot lower than the max 31 amps? The max operating amps is 19; which, I am guessing, would mean that when welding, it would stay under the 20 amps of the breaker? Am I wrong in my thinking? Not trying to argue or anything, just trying to figure things out.

To answer you question, no the "max operating amps (I1eff)" does not mean that the machine will only pull that much from the outlet. It sure sounds like it from the wording, but that's not what I1eff is. I had to look it up a month or two ago in the NEC. There is a an equation in the NEC 2011 that produces a chart to see the multiplier, in Section 630.12(B). The multiplier found in chart 630.11(A)

What I1eff is, is a corrected amperage draw figure that takes into account the duty cycle of the specific welder.

• For a welder that is not rated at 100% duty cycle at it's max welding amperage, I1eff < I1max.

This is the I1eff curve analyzed graphically, but specifically for one of my machines that has a 20% duty cycle. The green horizontal line represents the I1max. The curve represents different possibilities for I1eff, but is really only valid for the actual duty cycle of the machine at max welding amperage.

• The closer the machine is rated for 100% duty cycle, the larger the conductors have to be rated (curve gets closer to the green line (aka I1max) towards the right).
• The lower the machine is rated on duty cycle, the lower the curve drops away from the green line ← that is what permits you to size the conductors smaller, though it is not necessary as it's just a permission, not a requirement.

So what does this mean? It means that you are allowed to size the conductors smaller than what would normally be needed for I1max, as if it was only pulling the I1eff, because due to the duty cycle, the conductors would have time to "cool off". But this does not mean that the machine would not pull I1max. Push it to the limit (on that input voltage), and it will draw I1max.

[William McCormick]

I am looking at getting a Tig welder to learn on. I only have access to 20 amp 120V to the garage. Unfortunately I found out that the two machines I have narrowed it down to require a 30 amp breaker.

Everlast PowerI-Tig201
Max Inrush Amps 110V 31.2A
Max Operating Amps 110V 19A

Primeweld Tig225
110V 34.0A

In one of my conversations with Everlast it was briefly mentioned that the 20 amp breaker might get me by if welding at low amps. Right now I only plan to use the machine for 18-16 gauge sheet metal, so I figure 40-60amps would be about what I would run, not sure if that is low enough.

I would hate to make the purchase just to find out it will not work and would appreciate some input from someone more knowledgeable.

Thanks!

I used to take a little TIG machine down to a marina and to private homes on the water and weld stainless steel bow rails on boats with the shore power that was a 120volt ground fault breaker. I would weld the tubing onto 1/8" stainless plate no problem.


Sincerely,

William McCormick

[MinnesotaDave]

Hey Oscar, he's a duty cycle formula you might like.

I even use it in class when they are learning applicable mathematics

https://app.aws.org/mwf/attachments/...tedoutputs.pdf

[Oscar]

Hey Oscar, he's a duty cycle formula you might like.

I even use it in class when they are learning applicable mathematics

Yup, I had seen that PDF before. I'll make the necessary corrections to the mathematics and to the wording, and then I'll repost it.

[danielplace]

Still better to screw all that duty cycle stuff and just pull the full size wire protected with the least overcurrent the machine can do it's job with or just size it to the wire.

When you are talking the difference between #10's, #8's or #6's it makes no sense on these smaller inverters to skimp IMO.

That type of wiring is for saving real money running power to big transformer machines where the cost differences were substantial and the runs were likely longer in a commercial industrial setting than the average small garage size ever are.

If it says it can pull X amount of amperage then give it what it needs and the breaker to match.

Most are setup for 50amp welder style 6-50 outlet so pull #6's and put it on a 50 amp or a 60 amp if you want (since we still know that we have that duty cycle thing, lol) so a little over protection isn't going to hurt that outlet one iota.

But if zero chance for upgrade then for these really small 150-200 amp welder feeding with #10 size wire on a 30 amp breaker will never give issue either. The 30 is more than 100% duty would touch.

[William McCormick]

I am looking at getting a Tig welder to learn on. I only have access to 20 amp 120V to the garage. Unfortunately I found out that the two machines I have narrowed it down to require a 30 amp breaker.

Everlast PowerI-Tig201
Max Inrush Amps 110V 31.2A
Max Operating Amps 110V 19A

Primeweld Tig225
110V 34.0A

In one of my conversations with Everlast it was briefly mentioned that the 20 amp breaker might get me by if welding at low amps. Right now I only plan to use the machine for 18-16 gauge sheet metal, so I figure 40-60amps would be about what I would run, not sure if that is low enough.

I would hate to make the purchase just to find out it will not work and would appreciate some input from someone more knowledgeable.

Thanks!

I have a little job to do out in the field tacking on little ornaments to a railing. I bought a Jegs Tig, no foot pedal but it has a trigger on the torch. I believe it is just for on and off. But that is the kind of machine I used, to take down to the boats to do bow rails. This one costs under $300 bucks and looked pretty tough for $258 with tax. I also got a little cart to go with it for another 50 bucks also looked good, but I haven't put it together yet. But it is DC only lift ARC. When I fire it up I will let you know.




I got mine on sale it was $237.00 I see they are $279 now.

https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/81542/10002/-1

Sincerely,

William McCorimick

[William McCormick]

I do not know if you guys know but you can weld the magnesium saw guards with DC and straight argon very well, it is stronger than AC welding. You do not even grind a "V" grove just clean it. You just have to poke the rod into the molten puddle that is like an ice burg bigger on the bottom than the top. You have to preheat well, you can even bond the two base metals once you know you can it will depress a little, and then just poke and fil it in, burn it in and move on.


Sincerely,

William McCormick

[Broccoli1]

Yes, 120/240, sorry.

Thanks for posting both of those pictures!

The dryer is on a 30 amp breaker but I would need a 30' extension cord to get the power to where I need it. The range on the other hand is right through the wall to the garage, so in theory one could cut a hole in the wall and tap right into that. Not sure if that is acceptable or if a new line should be run. However, even if either of these power sources would work, the manual for the Primeweld says it needs a 50 amp breaker for 240V; the dryer is 30 and the range is 40. So I would be back in the same predicament as I am with the 120V. Unless the decal on the machine is more accurate, then maybe the 40 would work.

There are extra spaces in the breaker box so I guess I will have to bite the bullet and call in an electrician.

do this before buying anything.

adding a dedicated 240v circuit solves all your problems. It should be first thing on the "To Do list".