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Thread: Running a Lincoln Weldanpower on propane

  1. #1
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    Running a Lincoln Weldanpower on propane

    Recently I acquired a complete propane kit for small engines. The kit I have was sold for a Wisconsin THD 2 cylinder engine. Anyone know how much running on propane derates a 16 HP Briggs & Stratton? Anyone done this ? Anything I should look out for? TIA

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    Re: Running a Lincoln Weldanpower on propane

    I have considered switching over some generators to propane. I have not done so at this point. If you have any equipment with a factory warranty that you are looking to convert, unless the engine comes equipped as a dual fuel/tri fuel set up that includes propane, the modification to do so will void the warranty - hands down, across the board, every engine out there. Just the way it is.

    I would imagine, if you are of the mindset to undertake the conversion, that you are of the mindset you know how to work on your own stuff - or are willing to learn and tackle it. To that point - you can convert all gasoline engines to propane. Some designs are easier than others to adapt to propane. At the end of the day, you need a regulator to tune the fuel sent to the engine and the plumbing in place to get the fuel to the engine. Aside from that - running propane runs the same way as gasoline, just as you note - with a bit less power.

    The only advice I can really offer is to make sure the kit you have is suited for a similarly sized engine. I don't know how the carb is set up on either of those (Wisconsin or B&S) off the top of my head, but the bolt pattern and flanges of the carb/block will be critical to fitting a propane manifold between - if that is how that kit runs. If the kit manifold is different than what your engine is you will have to find the right one or make your own. If you can do any machining, or know someone that can, it might not be very difficult for make a manifold. A threaded barb could be one way to route a propane hose to the manifold = NPT threads in the manifold (like 1/4" or 1/8" NPT).

    Good luck with it. Don't forget about your routine maintenance like oil changes with the "clean" propane.

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    Re: Running a Lincoln Weldanpower on propane

    According to this:
    https://www.247mesa.com/post/de-rati...s-and-formulas
    -- the "rule of thumb" is 2-3% decline in HP for every 1000 ft in elevation above sea level.

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    Re: Running a Lincoln Weldanpower on propane

    Quote Originally Posted by Denis G View Post
    According to this:
    https://www.247mesa.com/post/de-rati...s-and-formulas
    -- the "rule of thumb" is 2-3% decline in HP for every 1000 ft in elevation above sea level.

    You missed the mark on 2 counts:
    - OP is talking about propane, not natural gas
    - OP is talking about propane from gasoline derate, not elevation derate.

    All Prime generators are rated for elevation derates already (wattage derates, not HP derates), somewhere around 20% above 5,000ft elevation.

    As to how to equate a derate based on propane from gasoline in terms of engine HP I have no idea. I would imagine a lot of it has to do with the energy/BTU's available per quantity of fuel, but I am not sure. Propane is a gas, gasoline is a liquid.

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    Re: Running a Lincoln Weldanpower on propane

    This might help some.

    https://www.northerntool.com/shop/to...7115_200497115

    This is a "tri fuel" generator - runs on gasoline, propane, and natural gas.

    The power ratings are as follows:

    Gasoline

    Running watts - 8,000
    Surge watts - 9,000

    Propane
    Running watts - 7,200
    Surge watts - 8,100

    Natural Gas
    Running watts - 7,200
    Surge watts - 7,200


    The Natural Gas numbers don't seem right - they are the same for running and surge. However, if you think about it there are 2 factors to the power limitation of a generator. 1. HP/torque and 2. Alternator design.

    If you have the alternator design that can handle a higher wattage but you don't have the horsepower to drive it the engine will stall under load, provided the circuit breaker is large enough to take the current draw that drags the engine down to a stall.

    If you have the engine power but not an alternator design that can take the power the best practice is to put a circuit breaker (main line circuit breaker, MLCB) on the unit that will actually protect the alternator by tripping when load surpasses what the breaker rating is.

    Say you have a 40 amp breaker and an alternator rated to 45 amps and an engine that can drive 75 amps. If you put a 70 amp breaker on the unit with an alternator that really only should push 45 amps you have the ability to drive the alternator to try to provide 35 amps more than it can safely provide = meltdown. Hence putting a smaller breaker on there - the breaker is intended to protect the alternator and not allow the engine to drive the power beyond that.

    With that having been said, the wattage rating of the generator in the link being the same for surge and running watts somewhat makes sense - it is already a lot less than what the generator can actually provide (on gasoline) so the engine power (being lower on natural gas) is the limitation for the peak/surge wattage. That is still under the running wattage of the unit running on gasoline (running watts = 8,000 on gasoline, surge watts = 7,200 on natural gas = 800 watts less than the running watts on gasoline).





    Going back to the question at hand - how does running on propane derate engine HP? I am not sure, but we're talking a welder so I interpret the question to really get down to the electrical power (the welding power). That is essentially the same end result as an AC generator = electrical power.

    Using that theory, with the sample generator here the derate on propane is as follows:

    Gasoline surge watts = 9,000, Propane surge watts = 8,100 ------------ Surge watts derate is 10%
    Gasoline running watts = 8,000, Propane running watts = 7,200 ------- Running watts derate is 10%

    Bear in mind that the above 10% derate is electrical power - NOT engine HP. I would think it safe to assume a similar welding power derate as welding power is electrical power.

  6. #6
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    Running a Lincoln Weldanpower on propane

    Quote Originally Posted by wasillashack View Post
    Recently I acquired a complete propane kit for small engines..

    Anything I should look out for? TIA
    Just make sure it's hooked up correctly with the proper regulator etc etc.

    a backfiring engine on propane can be dangerous if hooked up wrong.
    (ive seen some questionable cheap chi-com kits)


    Actually, I just bought a New (tri-fuel) genny last night..... should be here sept. 1

    The ratings are.... running/peak
    Gasoline- 9500/12,500 watts
    Propane- 8500/11,200 watts

    .
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    Re: Running a Lincoln Weldanpower on propane

    Quote Originally Posted by John T View Post
    Just make sure it's hooked up correctly with the proper regulator etc etc.

    a backfiring engine on propane can be dangerous if hooked up wrong.
    (ive seen some questionable cheap chi-com kits)


    Actually, I just bought a New (tri-fuel) genny last night..... should be here sept. 1

    The ratings are.... running/peak
    Gasoline- 9500/12,500 watts
    Propane- 8500/11,200 watts

    .
    How much did that set you back?
    Lincoln, ESAB, Thermal Dynamics, Victor, Miller, Dewalt, Makita, Kalamzoo. Hand tools, power tools, welding and cutting tools.

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    Running a Lincoln Weldanpower on propane

    Quote Originally Posted by N2 Welding View Post
    How much did that set you back?
    With $72.00 tax,

    $1200.00 shipped.
    With a cover.



    PS:
    I should have said Dual fuel
    Not tri fuel
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    Re: Running a Lincoln Weldanpower on propane

    I don't know the cubic inch displacement of a Wisconsin THD engine, which this propane conversion was purchased for. The Briggs & Stratton engine is a standard 16 HP 531 cc engine on a Lincoln Weldanpower 225/210 CC/CV. I am hoping the engines are close enough in displacement to be usable on the Briggs. I am assuming there is enough tuning range in the propane conversion to allw for any differences in displacement. The kit seems complete with regulator, plumbing and propane carb? I've never messed with a propane conversion. It is all brand new in a box. I plan to use teflon pipe sealant on all connections and test all connections with soapy water before starting. I don't want to say "firing it up" in the same sentence! I was a machinist in a former life, and have a mill and two lathes, so fabricating any parts needed should not be an issue.
    Flyfishn: I am aware of the difference in BTU's in gasoline and Propane, I just don't know how much it affects the power output of the engine, that was the purpose of my post. Looks like roughly 10%.
    John T, Good luck with your gen set. I didn't know Westinghouse made any small generators, the smallest I have ever worked on was 40 megawatt. I worked for Westinghouse for 17 years, 8 yrs. with their Nuclear Reactor Division-Pensacola,Florida and 9 yrs. with their Industry Services Div. Anchorage Alaska. if it is like other Westinghouse products it will serve you well. Good Luck!
    Last edited by wasillashack; 08-23-2020 at 07:17 AM.

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    Re: Running a Lincoln Weldanpower on propane

    Quote Originally Posted by wasillashack View Post
    Flyfishn: I am aware of the difference in BTU's in gasoline and Propane, I just don't know how much it affects the power output of the engine, that was the purpose of my post. Looks like roughly 10%.
    Bold and underline added:

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyFishn View Post

    Bear in mind that the above 10% derate is electrical power - NOT engine HP. I would think it safe to assume a similar welding power derate as welding power is electrical power.
    Engine HP does not directly equate to electrical power output. You can have 5 different generators with the same engine HP and 5 different wattage ratings. Likewise, you can have 5 different generators with the same wattage and different HP engines.

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    Re: Running a Lincoln Weldanpower on propane

    Quote Originally Posted by John T View Post
    With $72.00 tax,

    $1200.00 shipped.
    With a cover.



    PS:
    I should have said Dual fuel
    Not tri fuel

    Ouch, pretty spendy
    Lincoln, ESAB, Thermal Dynamics, Victor, Miller, Dewalt, Makita, Kalamzoo. Hand tools, power tools, welding and cutting tools.

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    Re: Running a Lincoln Weldanpower on propane


    wasillashack


    Quote Originally Posted by wasillashack View Post
    Recently I acquired a complete propane kit for small
    engines . . . Anything I should look out for?
    During the first Oil Embargo interest in propane engine conversions soared.
    IIRC - aside from the fuel kit, a major expense was a Stellite valve job . . .

    https://www.google.com/search?q=stel...hrome&ie=UTF-8

    hth


    Opus

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    Re: Running a Lincoln Weldanpower on propane

    Quote Originally Posted by N2 Welding View Post
    Ouch, pretty spendy
    Actually the price is pretty good.
    If youíre talking Honda generators,
    THATS SPENDY.
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    Re: Running a Lincoln Weldanpower on propane

    Quote Originally Posted by John T View Post
    Actually the price is pretty good.
    If you’re talking Honda generators,
    THATS SPENDY.
    I gotta say that's not a bad price for 9,500 watts with shipping.

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    Re: Running a Lincoln Weldanpower on propane

    Quote Originally Posted by 12V71 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by John T View Post
    Actually the price is pretty good.
    If you’re talking Honda generators,
    THATS SPENDY.
    I gotta say that's not a bad price for 9,500 watts with shipping.
    Generators are not all created equal. Dollars vs watts isn't a good measure of "value". The service a generator is in should dictate the quality of the unit. However, budget-minded purchasers don't tend to think in the "service" realm, rather they think in the "dollar" realm.

    If the generator is an alternator style (not an inverter style - and inverter style generators are quite limited in wattage, comparatively, so the wattage above, say, 4500 watts is nearly all alternator style generators) and has an operating RPM of 3600, no matter what the manufacturer is of the generator, it is a "light duty" generator.

    There is no generator made, nor will there likely ever be, that runs at 3600 RPM that is a real work horse.

    Alternator style generators need to run a constant RPM to produce 60hz AC. AC electrical devices are more sensitive to frequency than they are voltage. There are 2 RPMs that generators usually run - 3600 and 1800. 3600/60hz is 1 pole. 1800/60hz is 2 poles (twice the poles = 1/2 the speed as a 3600 rpm unit).

    You find 1800 RPM generators in the "range of generators" (fuel burning engine generators) starting with quiet RV units. Those are the ones you see on class A, B, and sometimes C motor homes and motor coaches, sometimes (less common) on 5th wheel RV's. These units are a step above the 3600 RPM "screamers" and a lot of them run on diesel, propane, or natural gas. By nature of the lower RPM they last longer than the screamers.

    If you want a real workhorse of a generator what you want to look in to is an 1800 RPM generator built for "prime use". These are the ones, on a large scale, mounted to platforms next to hospitals and other critical facilities. They have liquid cooled, pressurized oil engines. That is the key right there to a real workhorse of a generator - liquid cooled and pressurized oil engines.

    Even if you pay $7,000 to $10,000 for a screamer Honda that is still not a generator that is going to last. It will last better than an Ironton, Predator, or Powerhorse. But it is still a screamer- just badged "Honda". Until you drop the RPM to 1800 and add a liquid cooled, pressurized oil engine you're still talking light-duty generators.

    For backup/temporary power the 3600 RPM units can be quite fine. That is usually what I run when the power goes out - a 2600w unit. I do have a Honda EU2200i that is my portable generator, but it doesn't have 2 hots and neutral like the alternator style so I don't use it for backup at home.

    If I could get any generator I wanted it would be one that can run 15kw continuously at 1800rpm, preferably a diesel. As to what brand - not real sure. As long as the engine and alternator are easily serviceable and of quality parts I'd be happy. I'd probably want one on a trailer, or have the ability to put it on one (IE - not bolted to a foundation, somewhere where I can lift it and get it on wheels).

    15kw is 62.5 amps at 240v. Another thing to keep in mind about alternator style generators is the amperage is the ruling value, not the wattage. If you run 120v only off a generator that can run 240v the amperage governs. So in the 15kw example - if all that was used was one leg and neutral (120v) the most wattage you can pull is 7500w - because the one hot leg is still limited to 62.5 watts. If you distribute the load between both hots then you take advantage of "load balancing" and can bring up the usable wattage. That is the same reason your breaker panel in your house has 2 rows of breakers (although, to be most accurate - even and odd breaker positions are your 2 hots - so all evens are 1 hot and all odds are 1 hot, not the left side and right side of the box - thats why a double position (1 even plus 1 odd) breaker is 240v like for your AC, stove, dryer, and maybe your furnace).

    At 15kw continuous you can push an honest 50 amps = start and run central AC, run a good size welder, etc.

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    Re: Running a Lincoln Weldanpower on propane

    This guy sure knows how to flap his gums.....
    Good grief


    .
    Sorry for the side track Wasilla
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    Re: Running a Lincoln Weldanpower on propane

    Quote Originally Posted by John T View Post
    This guy sure knows how to flap his gums.....
    Good grief
    Ah yes. Gum flapping. I suppose if that's what you want to call unsolicited good information, so be it. If you took the time to understand the subject - and looked at the range of services (my first point in my long reply above) generators are used in you would find the same information.

    Bottom line is there are 3 things that make a robust generator -
    1. 1800 RPM
    2. Liquid cooled engine
    3. Pressurized oil engine

    .
    Quote Originally Posted by John T View Post
    Sorry for the side track Wasilla
    I apologize for the side track also.

    One last point and I'll drop the subject.

    Take this generator for example. It is an 8400w propane/7400w natural gas (does not run on gasoline) generator plastered as a "prime use" generator. Its base price is $4360.

    The irony and humor in it - it uses a 3600 RPM Briggs & Stratton engine.

    Don't be fooled. There is no such thing as a 3600 RPM engine (no matter what fuel it burns) that is good for true "prime use" duty. The company is marketing this to homeowners as a backup generator for when the power goes out - to compete, obviously, with Generac home stand by units that run on natural gas as well. By putting it in their generator line-up as "Prime Use" they are trying to make a marketing statement to stand it above the class of a "home stand by" generator.

    Buyer beware. Be smart and understand what you're dealing with. Salesmen can sure get creative.

    For the specs on this one go to the spec sheet in the downloads area.

    https://www.wincogen.com/product/pss8b2w/

    For comparisons sake - their DR1214 is the first true "Prime Use" generator that checks the 3 boxes above - 1800 RPM, liquid cooled engine, pressurized oil engine. Its base price is $13,390. Big difference - its a real prime unit and runs 11,250 watts in prime applications.

    https://www.wincogen.com/product/dr12i4/

    Thats all folks. Take the info for what you will, or throw it in the garbage. I suspect if you do research the subject you'll see where the depth of the info comes from - I'm just trying to give you a better pointer on the subject without your research time. That is, if you open your mind to it. Any questions PM me.

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    Re: Running a Lincoln Weldanpower on propane

    I donít remember anyone asking you for an education on generators.

    Iím very happy with my purchase thank you very much.

    I donít need your opinion on anything.
    Perhaps you should look up the definition of blowhard.

    The only reason why I even mentioned my generator is to give Wasilla an example of the ratings on gasoline VS propane.
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    Re: Running a Lincoln Weldanpower on propane

    Quote Originally Posted by OPUS FERRO View Post

    wasillashack




    During the first Oil Embargo interest in propane engine conversions soared.
    IIRC - aside from the fuel kit, a major expense was a Stellite valve job . . .

    https://www.google.com/search?q=stel...hrome&ie=UTF-8

    hth


    Opus
    I am willing to bet they make some sort of injection system that wont break the bank to inject some lubricant into the combustion area to lube the valves, just like snow mobiles do, they have a separate reservoir for special oil that gets mixed at the carb to lube the engine....

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    Re: Running a Lincoln Weldanpower on propane

    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbytime View Post
    I am willing to bet they make some sort of injection system that wont break the bank to inject some lubricant into the combustion area to lube the valves, just like snow mobiles do, they have a separate reservoir for special oil that gets mixed at the carb to lube the engine....
    I've worked on some old Waukesha 145's on drill rigs running on propane that had small tanks under the hood with a connection to the intake manifold for top cylinder lubrication. Most of the owners didn't bother with them but one guy used it to inject a small amount of Marvel Mystery oil, his exhaust had a slight wintergreen odor. I think he filled the tank (approx one half gallon) every other day.

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    Re: Running a Lincoln Weldanpower on propane

    Quote Originally Posted by John T View Post



    Actually, I just bought a New (tri-fuel) genny last night..... should be here sept. 1

    The ratings are.... running/peak
    Gasoline- 9500/12,500 watts
    Propane- 8500/11,200 watts

    .
    I like everything about it but this...
    "THD<23%"
    Thats a deal breaker for me. I need it to run electronics.
    <5% kicks the price up a bit for a namebrand Non-chicom unit.
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    Re: Running a Lincoln Weldanpower on propane

    Quote Originally Posted by tkevan View Post
    I like everything about it but this...
    "THD<23%"
    Thats a deal breaker for me. I need it to run electronics.
    <5% kicks the price up a bit for a namebrand Non-chicom unit.
    I hear you.
    Mainly wanted it to run fridge(s) / lights/ well pump/boiler and yes..... Central AC.

    I also have a little 2k inverter thats cleaner power..... I usually run my garage off of... I could always use that for a computer etc.
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    Re: Running a Lincoln Weldanpower on propane

    Just an FYI for you guys depending on generator power.... You should also pick up a 800-1000 running watt power inverter. Connected to your car/truck battery, these will run most fridges/freezers, fans, lights, etc.. They aren't going to run an electric coffee maker or a microwave. Never a bad idea to have a redundancy. Depending on how you set up the connections, anyone can connect it when needed and use it without any worries about reverse polarity. Our inverters have saved me the effort of pulling out my Onan gensets on a couple of occasions.

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  27. #24
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    Re: Running a Lincoln Weldanpower on propane

    Quote Originally Posted by machinisttx View Post
    Just an FYI for you guys depending on generator power.... You should also pick up a 800-1000 running watt power inverter. Connected to your car/truck battery, these will run most fridges/freezers, fans, lights, etc.. They aren't going to run an electric coffee maker or a microwave. Never a bad idea to have a redundancy. Depending on how you set up the connections, anyone can connect it when needed and use it without any worries about reverse polarity. Our inverters have saved me the effort of pulling out my Onan gensets on a couple of occasions.
    Thatís actually a great idea and Iíve never thought about it.

    I have an inverter sitting in the garage somewhere.

    Iíd have to dig it out to see what the ratings are.

    But it gets me wondering what would it cost you to idle your vehicle for 24 hours.

    As opposed to running a generator for the same time.


    Probably not efficient

    But as a last resort...
    Something to think about.
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    Re: Running a Lincoln Weldanpower on propane

    Quote Originally Posted by John T View Post
    That’s actually a great idea and I’ve never thought about it.

    I have an inverter sitting in the garage somewhere.

    I’d have to dig it out to see what the ratings are.

    But it gets me wondering what would it cost you to idle your vehicle for 24 hours.

    As opposed to running a generator for the same time.


    Probably not efficient

    But as a last resort...
    Something to think about.
    It depends on the vehicle. Some of the tiny econobox cars will actually use less fuel than a 10hp screamer generator. If you're just running lights or a fan, you can run a long time before you need to worry about the battery getting low...especially LED lights. Definitely need to idle to run a fridge or freezer though. After Christmas, you can buy strings of LED lights really cheap. Not a ton of light, but enough that you won't be stubbing your pinky toe on the coffee table looking for a flashlight. Plenty of really cheap, decent quality LED, AA battery powered lanterns around now. Couple those with some Eneloop rechargeables and a decent charger(I like MAHA), and you have light everywhere you need it. Most of the chargers will also have a 12v adapter, either included or available. I think mine will recharge 4 batteries in two hours, or 8 batteries in four hours. Lots of solar yard lights use AA's or AAA's too. Something else to rattle around the back of your brain.

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