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Thread: Synchrowave 250 150 amp breaker wire size

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    Synchrowave 250 150 amp breaker wire size

    I have a synchrowave 250 that has been on a 100 amp breaker for years. It will trip the breaker pretty regularly running it at 225 amps. I am getting tired of breaker problems and would like to upgrade the breaker. It also has a Coolmate water cooler plugged into it that pulls 6 amps. I know you can undersize wire for welders based on the duty cycle but just want to make sure I have it right. I was thinking #3 wire and #6 ground I have 1" EMT conduit and would like to be able to pull new wire in the same conduit if that's possible. Also, the breaker panel is in the front of the shop and welder is in the back so between 100' and 150' wire run I'll measure tomorrow to be exact.
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    Re: Synchrowave 250 150 amp breaker wire size

    That's odd it would trip a 100 amp breaker. I wonder if just replacing the breaker would help?

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    Re: Synchrowave 250 150 amp breaker wire size

    I've never owned a Syncrowave. I had a Dialarc 250HF it was rated 105 amps max at 60%. I have it in mind that yours is similar in load. Don't know if I1max is listed on your nameplate. Your circumstances may be different.

    A 60% duty cycle welder needs at least .78 X max amps supply (105 X .78 = 81.9)
    Yours has a 6 amp cooler also. 81.9 + 6 = 87.9 You need #3 THHN to comply with code because you must use the 75 degree C. column as some terminal will be limited to 75 degrees C.

    3-3-6 conductors THHN will fit at under 40% fill.

    #3 will not overheat.

    KIL/Ed = CMA 12.9 X 111 X 300 / 10 = 42957

    K is ohms per mil foot. Copper is 12.9
    I is amps 111
    L is round trip in feet 300
    Ed is acceptable voltage loss 10
    CMA is cross sectional area in circular mils

    42957 is less than 52620 of #3 from table 8 Chapter 9 NEC.

    Your plan is solid. as long as your system of service conductors, feeder conductors etc, don't contribute much voltage loss at all. I'm presuming 240 volt incoming power & 230 is welder design voltage.

    Breaker can be up to 200% for the welder. I'm not clear where the cooler belongs in this equation. In any case 200 amps would hold any load.
    I'd try 125 amp I believe it'll hold.
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    Re: Synchrowave 250 150 amp breaker wire size

    Thanks Willie! Our shop has 208 3 phase service and plenty of room in the panel to up breaker size. Welder is single phase but on 208 not 230 so not sure if that changes anything should have included that in original post. Data plate on welder says 110 amps at 200 volts.
    Last edited by Capt B; 08-27-2020 at 10:47 AM.
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    Re: Synchrowave 250 150 amp breaker wire size

    Quote Originally Posted by Welder Dave View Post
    That's odd it would trip a 100 amp breaker. I wonder if just replacing the breaker would help?
    I replaced breaker a while ago just to see. No change.
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    Re: Synchrowave 250 150 amp breaker wire size

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    I've never owned a Syncrowave. I had a Dialarc 250HF it was rated 105 amps max at 60%. I have it in mind that yours is similar in load. Don't know if I1max is listed on your nameplate. Your circumstances may be different.

    A 60% duty cycle welder needs at least .78 X max amps supply (105 X .78 = 81.9)
    Yours has a 6 amp cooler also. 81.9 + 6 = 87.9 You need #3 THHN to comply with code because you must use the 75 degree C. column as some terminal will be limited to 75 degrees C.

    3-3-6 conductors THHN will fit at under 40% fill.

    #3 will not overheat.

    KIL/Ed = CMA 12.9 X 111 X 300 / 10 = 42957

    K is ohms per mil foot. Copper is 12.9
    I is amps 111
    L is round trip in feet 300
    Ed is acceptable voltage loss 10
    CMA is cross sectional area in circular mils

    42957 is less than 52620 of #3 from table 8 Chapter 9 NEC.

    Your plan is solid. as long as your system of service conductors, feeder conductors etc, don't contribute much voltage loss at all. I'm presuming 240 volt incoming power & 230 is welder design voltage.

    Breaker can be up to 200% for the welder. I'm not clear where the cooler belongs in this equation. In any case 200 amps would hold any load.
    I'd try 125 amp I believe it'll hold.

    The reason I added the cooler is it is plugged into the 110 outlet on the welder. I could plug it into a separate circuit but I know if I did that I would forget to turn it on at some point.
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    Re: Synchrowave 250 150 amp breaker wire size

    According to the owners manual, you need a 125 amp breaker minimum and 4 gauge conductors with a 6 gauge ground
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    Re: Synchrowave 250 150 amp breaker wire size

    The amps sure go up when you drop to 208 volts input. I was thinking 100 amp should be fine at 230 volts.

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    Re: Synchrowave 250 150 amp breaker wire size

    Your situation would surely benefit from a Dynasty, or other inverter able to sort out single phase, or three, at any voltage from 200 to 600 50 or 60 cycle. If I recall correctly, mine Dynasty 280DX draws 37 amps 240 volt single phase.

    I'm not a fan of 208 volt WYE three phase. Motor manufacturers agree to build motors to function plus or minus 10% from nameplate rating. Still, they perform best at or above design voltage. At 253 volts, a 230 volt motor runs cooler, with more torque than at 207. Every conductor loses some voltage. Not a wire in the world can lose only one volt.

    I guess your Syncrowave can be jumpered for 200 volts, so bigger conductors is the only concern.
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    Re: Synchrowave 250 150 amp breaker wire size

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    Your situation would surely benefit from a Dynasty, or other inverter able to sort out single phase, or three, at any voltage from 200 to 600 50 or 60 cycle. If I recall correctly, mine Dynasty 280DX draws 37 amps 240 volt single phase.

    I'm not a fan of 208 volt WYE three phase. Motor manufacturers agree to build motors to function plus or minus 10% from nameplate rating. Still, they perform best at or above design voltage. At 253 volts, a 230 volt motor runs cooler, with more torque than at 207. Every conductor loses some voltage. Not a wire in the world can lose only one volt.

    I guess your Syncrowave can be jumpered for 200 volts, so bigger conductors is the only concern.
    Yeah, we do a lot of work on amusement rides etc. that require 3 phase 208. It seems that's what most rides are going with these days not sure why. I bought an Invertig 221 a while back but ended up taking it home during the Covid shutdown and decided I like having it at home. Don't really have room in the budget right now for another welder. Looking at your formula I think I actually may need #2 and use a 125 smp breaker. Not sure if I'm correct. I believe I can still fit 2-2-6 in 1" conduit according to southwires calculator.
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    Re: Synchrowave 250 150 amp breaker wire size

    Quote Originally Posted by Louie1961 View Post
    According to the owners manual, you need a 125 amp breaker minimum and 4 gauge conductors with a 6 gauge ground
    Thanks what I'm concerned about is the length of the wire run. So thought 4 was to small.
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    Re: Synchrowave 250 150 amp breaker wire size

    Quote Originally Posted by Capt B View Post
    Thanks what I'm concerned about is the length of the wire run. So thought 4 was to small.
    Well the manual says 4 gauge is good up to 173 feet.

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    Re: Synchrowave 250 150 amp breaker wire size

    Quote Originally Posted by Louie1961 View Post
    Well the manual says 4 gauge is good up to 173 feet.

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    Thanks, I didn't see that.
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    Re: Synchrowave 250 150 amp breaker wire size

    Quote Originally Posted by Louie1961 View Post
    Well the manual says 4 gauge is good up to 173 feet.

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    How far to the supply transformer? might be the electrons travel hundreds of feet before entering the circuit you discuss.
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    Re: Synchrowave 250 150 amp breaker wire size

    Just a guess, Bill, but I am guessing Miller is assuming some sort of standard installation when they quote these numbers. From their perspective I would guess that if you are up to code to the panel, this will be sufficient from the panel. But I am not going to second guess you on electrical stuff my friend.
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    Re: Synchrowave 250 150 amp breaker wire size

    Quote Originally Posted by Louie1961 View Post
    Just a guess, Bill, but I am guessing Miller is assuming some sort of standard installation when they quote these numbers. From their perspective I would guess that if you are up to code to the panel, this will be sufficient from the panel. But I am not going to second guess you on electrical stuff my friend.
    Code is not specific about voltage drop. It isn't a safety issue except in extreme cases. They have suggested 3% in the service (7.4 volts loss in 240 volt service) allowing another 2% in feeders That's 12 volts loss before beginning on the circuit which the OP describes as 100-150 feet. Travelling round trip, it might be a long trip for electrons.
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    Re: Synchrowave 250 150 amp breaker wire size

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    Code is not specific about voltage drop. It isn't a safety issue except in extreme cases. They have suggested 3% in the service (7.4 volts loss in 240 volt service) allowing another 2% in feeders That's 12 volts loss before beginning on the circuit which the OP describes as 100-150 feet. Travelling round trip, it might be a long trip for electrons.
    Measured today its 115 ft.
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    Re: Synchrowave 250 150 amp breaker wire size

    I also found something I've never seen today. The welder now is powered off a sub-panel that has 100 amp breaker in it which is fed from one of the main panels off a 100 amp breaker. The sub-panel was there when we moved in so we just fed welder from it. I opened it today and it has 2-6awg wires for each hot leg coming from the main panel. Not sure if that meets code. Looked in both panels and that is the only circuit fed with multiple wires like that.
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    Re: Synchrowave 250 150 amp breaker wire size

    Quote Originally Posted by Capt B View Post
    I also found something I've never seen today. The welder now is powered off a sub-panel that has 100 amp breaker in it which is fed from one of the main panels off a 100 amp breaker. The sub-panel was there when we moved in so we just fed welder from it. I opened it today and it has 2-6awg wires for each hot leg coming from the main panel. Not sure if that meets code. Looked in both panels and that is the only circuit fed with multiple wires like that.
    That is illegal. You cannot parallel wires smaller than 1/0. Somebody pulled a junky stunt.

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    Re: Synchrowave 250 150 amp breaker wire size

    Quote Originally Posted by danielplace View Post
    That is illegal. You cannot parallel wires smaller than 1/0. Somebody pulled a junky stunt.
    Yeah, I just finished reading NEC 310.10(H) I guess its a good thing I decided to pull larger wire.
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    Re: Synchrowave 250 150 amp breaker wire size

    Quote Originally Posted by Capt B View Post
    The welder now is powered off a sub-panel that has 100 amp breaker in it which is fed from one of the main panels off a 100 amp breaker.
    So you have the 1 sub panel off of a service entrance "main" panel? Or are you saying your "main" panels are other sub-panels off of service entrance = panel powering the welder circuit is daisy chained several panels deep?

    Quote Originally Posted by Capt B View Post
    The sub-panel was there when we moved in so we just fed welder from it. I opened it today and it has 2-6awg wires for each hot leg coming from the main panel. Not sure if that meets code. Looked in both panels and that is the only circuit fed with multiple wires like that.
    Check your voltage drop, under load, at the panel your welder is powered from. You may be loosing more voltage elsewhere in that power distribution maze.

    I agree, if the parallel wire run doesn't meet code in that install it is best to bring it up to code. I don't know your building management/ownership scenario, nor does anyone on the forum, so offering any tidbits if info is just that. The best idea is to have a licensed electrician go through things and make any necessary upgrades. If you own the building or have permission from those who do to do the work - that's fine. Just use your head as you're assuming the risk/liability in doing it.

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    Re: Synchrowave 250 150 amp breaker wire size

    Something definitely seems odd. I've run five or six different Syncrowave 250s with coolers on a 60A circuit without tripping a breaker. Similarly, I've run a couple of Syncrowave 250DX with coolers on the same circuit an no problems. On a 40A breaker they would occasionally trip it when turning on/off, but not while running...at least up to 250-275A. They've all been set for 230V.
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    Re: Synchrowave 250 150 amp breaker wire size

    Quote Originally Posted by G-ManBart View Post
    Something definitely seems odd. I've run five or six different Syncrowave 250s with coolers on a 60A circuit without tripping a breaker. Similarly, I've run a couple of Syncrowave 250DX with coolers on the same circuit an no problems. On a 40A breaker they would occasionally trip it when turning on/off, but not while running...at least up to 250-275A. They've all been set for 230V.
    60 amps at 230 is 13,800 watts. We'll call this the upper limit, although that may not necessarily be the case (I've been pulling 40-45 amps through a 30a breaker without it popping regularly, for example).

    The OP is running a 100 amp breaker on a single phase of 208 WYE. If we assume the voltage is 208v that would be 20,800 watts - 7,000 watts more than your 60 amps.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyFishn View Post
    Check your voltage drop, under load, at the panel your welder is powered from. You may be loosing more voltage elsewhere in that power distribution maze.
    I've seen a supply line from the utilities that was nicked under-ground after 2 years of festering in the wet ground. It was single phase with neutral (conventional 120/240 service). Circuits on the leg that were fed by the turd cable would routinely pop breakers. When the power company came out they tested the supply line and found the problem, dug it up, and repaired the cable. What they cut out looked like a loaded baked potato. The wire was aluminum and where the split was in the sheath it had corroded and expanded - bursting it like a squished up baked potato full of all kinds of goodies.

    There was absolutely nothing wrong with the circuits inside, yet the breakers would blow regularly. Why? The bad supply line caused a lot of resistance and under load the voltage tanked.

    Moral of the story - check the voltage.

    You can't be pulling more than 7,000 more watts just because you're running a lower supply voltage (208 service vs. 230/240v service). Amps is one thing, but you need to look at the whole picture including volts - and wattage does just that.

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    Re: Synchrowave 250 150 amp breaker wire size

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyFishn View Post
    60 amps at 230 is 13,800 watts. We'll call this the upper limit, although that may not necessarily be the case (I've been pulling 40-45 amps through a 30a breaker without it popping regularly, for example).

    The OP is running a 100 amp breaker on a single phase of 208 WYE. If we assume the voltage is 208v that would be 20,800 watts - 7,000 watts more than your 60 amps.



    I've seen a supply line from the utilities that was nicked under-ground after 2 years of festering in the wet ground. It was single phase with neutral (conventional 120/240 service). Circuits on the leg that were fed by the turd cable would routinely pop breakers. When the power company came out they tested the supply line and found the problem, dug it up, and repaired the cable. What they cut out looked like a loaded baked potato. The wire was aluminum and where the split was in the sheath it had corroded and expanded - bursting it like a squished up baked potato full of all kinds of goodies.

    There was absolutely nothing wrong with the circuits inside, yet the breakers would blow regularly. Why? The bad supply line caused a lot of resistance and under load the voltage tanked.

    Moral of the story - check the voltage.

    You can't be pulling more than 7,000 more watts just because you're running a lower supply voltage (208 service vs. 230/240v service). Amps is one thing, but you need to look at the whole picture including volts - and wattage does just that.
    Watts wouldn't increase running jumpered for 200 volts. Amps would. A 100 amp load at 200 volts provides 20,000 Watts. At 230 volts 20,000 watts is only 87 amps.
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

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    Re: Synchrowave 250 150 amp breaker wire size

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyFishn View Post
    So you have the 1 sub panel off of a service entrance "main" panel? Or are you saying your "main" panels are other sub-panels off of service entrance = panel powering the welder circuit is daisy chained several panels deep?



    Check your voltage drop, under load, at the panel your welder is powered from. You may be loosing more voltage elsewhere in that power distribution maze.

    I agree, if the parallel wire run doesn't meet code in that install it is best to bring it up to code. I don't know your building management/ownership scenario, nor does anyone on the forum, so offering any tidbits if info is just that. The best idea is to have a licensed electrician go through things and make any necessary upgrades. If you own the building or have permission from those who do to do the work - that's fine. Just use your head as you're assuming the risk/liability in doing it.
    There is a main disconnect outside the building then inside there are two breaker panels side by side which I was calling the main panels both fed independently from the disconnect. The sub-panel is ran off of one of them. All other wiring is done correctly and no other breakers trip. The front panel of the welder says 110 amp without the water cooler so not sure why everyone thinks it shouldn't trip the breaker. Voltage drops to 203 under load put an ammeter on it and was pulling 118 before breaker tripped. The panel the sub panel for welder is fed from only has 6 breakers in it out of the 30 available slots so it is not overloaded.
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