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Thread: chrome moly airframe

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    chrome moly airframe

    Simple and to the point. Anybody out there certified in o/a welding chrome moly airframes in the Minnesota area? Thank you 4 reading, Clyde

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    Re: chrome moly airframe

    Do yourself a favor. Look around on the map and see where all the little Podunk grass strips and small airports not service by heavy jet airliners are . If it was me I start with the tiny grass strip tight and head out there on the weekend or in the evening and start asking around. Youíre gonna find somebody out there who is always looking for some after hours work who does welding on aircraft structures.
    I assume youíre referring to a kit plane your building that is a rag wing. Well since rag wings went extinct look for the places that have the old piper cubs and ultra lights etc. kicking around. Chances are thatís where you are most likely to find somebody straight off. Any mechanics working on those planes, more than likely owners themselves are always looking for some after hours work from their real job. Just stroll into the hanger and ask any mechanic hanging around.
    If you donít have any of those around or thereís nobody willing you can go to the bigger airports like the county type that may have an airline servicing it. Hereís the trouble though, most of those outfits get all cranked up if their mechanics are working on planes that theyíre not getting a piece of the action off of. Get my drift itís kind of a stealth operation here so stay away from the guys in the front office and again just talk to a couple of mechanics and somebody will probably tell you who to go find. If you keep it off the airport grounds he will probably be happy to do it or at your house or in some Tucktaway hanger with the doors closed or prying eyes canít see.

    I owned a Cessna for about 20 years so I know of what I speak here when it comes to getting something done without paying $90 an hour. Make damn sure when you find this guy to treat him like a prince . Pay in CASH too. No stupid checks and all that nonsense Cash and carry only! These are also the guy you get to do your annuals if you need that or any work that you donít quite feel up to like welding up an air frame that you donít want to crack you break in flight and kill you.
    Again you have to treat this kind a like a drug deal as far is the airport people are concerned. I always acted like I donít know you and you donít know me. You sure donít go blabbing any of it around anybody at the airport except maybe certain pilots that you trust to keep their mouth shut. Itís kind of like a secret society in a sick way. Thatís the main reason I got rid of my airplane .I just gotSick of sneaking around Play stupid games for a logbook entry.

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    Re: chrome moly airframe

    Quote Originally Posted by driz View Post
    Do yourself a favor. Look around on the map and see where all the little Podunk grass strips and small airports not service by heavy jet airliners are . If it was me I start with the tiny grass strip tight and head out there on the weekend or in the evening and start asking around. You’re gonna find somebody out there who is always looking for some after hours work who does welding on aircraft structures.
    There is some truthful sound advice in that post. I helped build a Quicksilver Ultralight at a so-called "podunk grass strip" hobby airport about 10-15 years ago. In that environment I would concur - it was a friendly atmosphere and we wouldn't have looked down on someone stopping by because they were curious. The airfield is home to a ton of those kit planes - 1/2 scales of bigger planes, ultralights, you name it. Just the airplanes around the strip and flying around would be enough to get people's curiosity up I'm sure. If I were 5-10 years old I would have begged my parents to go spend the weekends out at a place like that - and thats why I enjoyed being out there when I was. It was a friends' plane we built - their whole family flies. They have 2 cessnas (more modern 182 and an older 150) as well as a piper, not sure what the model is, a Cherokee perhaps - low wing.

    For what it is worth, Minnesota is very much "bush plane" country. What you are after is surely out there. I'm familiar with that western side of Ontario (my family has roots in that area back to the '40's) and could ask around up there, but that won't help you south of the border...

    As to the "stealth operations" to get things done - yep. Unfortunately, that is how I understand things to be also - unless you pay the big dollars. I know of a scenario where the pilot does his own work and has the books signed otherwise. Interesting way to go about it, but again... its in the art of the "stealth".

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    Re: chrome moly airframe

    If this is welding on a kit, I speculate that you already checked with the online kit plane forum for that model ? Is there a local club for that model, and have you asked the members? How about EAA? I attended local EAA meetings years ago and there were all manner of kit plane builders and old timers at those meetings.

    The A&P shops like Wipaire Inc. at South Saint Paul Fleming Field won't assist with building due to liability, but they may know other people that could. The whole problem you are running into is the liability aspect. Nobody wants their name in a log book and have lawyers knocking on their door a decade later after things go bad.
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    Re: chrome moly airframe

    Quote Originally Posted by clyde r View Post
    Simple and to the point. Anybody out there certified in o/a welding chrome moly airframes in the Minnesota area? Thank you 4 reading, Clyde
    I'm curious why O/A welding? Might be easier to find someone skilled in TIG welding the chrome moly.
    Ernie F.

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    Re: chrome moly airframe

    When I worked at a welding supply had a couple people come in asking for welding advice on kit planes. Apparently you don't need any qualifications to do your own welding. You just shake your head and don't offer to be the first passenger.

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    Re: chrome moly airframe

    Quote Originally Posted by metalman21 View Post
    I'm curious why O/A welding? Might be easier to find someone skilled in TIG welding the chrome moly.
    With oxy/fuel the metal is affected less by slower heat cycles. TIG welded chromoly usually requires a normalizing process due to rapid heat cycles of electric arc.

    I speak with no authority! Just through research on the interweb (never lies) and speaking with sheet metal forming guys who build aircraft parts.
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    Re: chrome moly airframe

    I would contact the FAA be for doing any welding.
    Back 1960's they wanted any building building airframes to use a torch welding. This data is from the EAA.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by clyde r View Post
    Simple and to the point. Anybody out there certified in o/a welding chrome moly airframes in the Minnesota area? Thank you 4 reading, Clyde

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    Re: chrome moly airframe

    Quote Originally Posted by crab fisherman View Post
    With oxy/fuel the metal is affected less by slower heat cycles. TIG welded chromoly usually requires a normalizing process due to rapid heat cycles of electric arc.

    I speak with no authority! Just through research on the interweb (never lies) and speaking with sheet metal forming guys who build aircraft parts.
    As far as I know normalizing or post stress relief heat treat is required "if" 4130 filler rod is used. 4130 filler is not recommended for welding 4130 tubing on experimental air craft or race cars due to less elongation and the need for heat treat. TIG with ER70S-2 or ER80S-D2 is fine on 4130 chrome molly tubing. No post heat, Ok as welded as long as it cools normally, no quenching-quick cooling. Preheat isn't required under .120" thickness but some preheat won't hurt and would help if the shop and metal are ice cold. Good welding practices (as always) required, going slower rather that jacking the amps and putting welds down at a rapid pace.
    Ernie F.

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    Re: chrome moly airframe

    Quote Originally Posted by smithdoor View Post
    I would contact the FAA be for doing any welding.
    Back 1960's they wanted any building building airframes to use a torch welding. This data is from the EAA.

    Dave
    Dave I didn't know you had it in you. This probably the most understandable post of yours I have ever read.

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    Re: chrome moly airframe

    Come to think of it the local EAA chapter is the place to start asking. First and formost! With experimentals and ultralights That’s almost always the ticket to advice .

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    Re: chrome moly airframe

    I live and breath aircraft for most my life.
    My avatar show's the doors I designed and Manufacturer

    My mother was in the 99's
    My father had the meetings the EAA in our shop I made coffee and clean be for and after the meetings.
    I was in the FRM

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    Quote Originally Posted by thegary View Post
    Dave I didn't know you had it in you. This probably the most understandable post of yours I have ever read.
    Last edited by smithdoor; 09-03-2020 at 01:06 AM.

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    Re: chrome moly airframe

    Quote Originally Posted by metalman21 View Post
    As far as I know normalizing or post stress relief heat treat is required "if" 4130 filler rod is used. 4130 filler is not recommended for welding 4130 tubing on experimental air craft or race cars due to less elongation and the need for heat treat. TIG with ER70S-2 or ER80S-D2 is fine on 4130 chrome molly tubing. No post heat, Ok as welded as long as it cools normally, no quenching-quick cooling. Preheat isn't required under .120" thickness but some preheat won't hurt and would help if the shop and metal are ice cold. Good welding practices (as always) required, going slower rather that jacking the amps and putting welds down at a rapid pace.
    Pretty much sums it up. You can even purchase an SWPS from American Welding Society which specs Er80s-b2. Under 1/8" post weld stress relief is generally not required, especially under 1/16". Vintage bicycle builders used to flame torch stress relief on thin wall 4130 but that was overkill I think.
    Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR"
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    Re: chrome moly airframe

    Im certain I can not add much to this thread, other than im fairly sure I have heard Jody (welding tips and tricks) mention welding aircraft 4130 in the past (referring to GMAW)

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    Re: chrome moly airframe

    Quote Originally Posted by husq2100 View Post
    Im certain I can not add much to this thread, other than im fairly sure I have heard Jody (welding tips and tricks) mention welding aircraft 4130 in the past (referring to GMAW)
    Yeah, but remember Jody can do things in welding that regular humans can't...

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    Re: chrome moly airframe

    You might also try homebuiltairplanes.com seems to have more action than the EAA site.
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    Re: chrome moly airframe

    I welded up the chro-moly parts of a "Monerai" sailplane. Took a month after practicing a month. There was/is? an aircraft parts place in Los Angeles where I bought 5 lb of bits & pieces of chro-moly ends. I was a member of EAA & one member was an FAA maintenence inspector. He said amateur builders could o/a weld themselves, (this was mid '80's) but NOT tig unless they were certified. Said o/a with mild steel rod, the weld would 'blend/alloy' with the molten chromoly, but, he said tig would sometimes 'peel off' what appeared to be a good weld. Home welded tig would fail inspection every time. I never finished the glider, seemed every month there were so many FAA notices requiring multi changes to the plane, I finally gave up. Still have the cage in one of my sheds.
    What is the sound of one knee jerking?

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    Re: chrome moly airframe

    That is to bad.
    The Fresno EAA used torch welding. The FAA would not let use stick or mig welding on airframe.

    Next time your airport look for my Handy work last name smith on the casting's wheels and handles. I think I have work on every airport in LA.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by cornemuse View Post
    I welded up the chro-moly parts of a "Monerai" sailplane. Took a month after practicing a month. There was/is? an aircraft parts place in Los Angeles where I bought 5 lb of bits & pieces of chro-moly ends. I was a member of EAA & one member was an FAA maintenence inspector. He said amateur builders could o/a weld themselves, (this was mid '80's) but NOT tig unless they were certified. Said o/a with mild steel rod, the weld would 'blend/alloy' with the molten chromoly, but, he said tig would sometimes 'peel off' what appeared to be a good weld. Home welded tig would fail inspection every time. I never finished the glider, seemed every month there were so many FAA notices requiring multi changes to the plane, I finally gave up. Still have the cage in one of my sheds.

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    Re: chrome moly airframe

    Quote Originally Posted by smithdoor View Post
    That is to bad.
    The Fresno EAA used torch welding. The FAA would not let use stick or mig welding on airframe.

    Next time your airport look for my Handy work last name smith on the casting's wheels and handles. I think I have work on every airport in LA.

    Dave
    I dont quite understand that. I know kit fox kit planes airframes are welded entirely with mig process. The faa reconizes every welding process out there and one is not preffered over the other just that whatever process you use you do it correctly. I personally have built aircraft parts using all the methods avalible with no issues.

    As far as tig welding goes one other member already covered it best. Use er70s or er80s rod. The 80s has a higher tensile strength than the 70s but either will work just fine. I have tried the cromoly rod and was not pleased with it. As far as the filler being mild steel rod its of no concern because at .030 material thickness the bead is usually much thicker than the parent material anyhow.

    As far as normalizing after welding the idea is to relive any stress that may be built up in a joint due to pulling warpage and so on from itself and other joints when its all completly welded! I attended a seminar at oshkosh on airframe welding and the speaker was a engineer for lincoln welding and he confirmed what i pretty much already thought about the stress relieving process. And that is unless your willing to buy the crayons that let you know what temperature your at your better off to just leave it and not do it. Reason is the saying goes heat it to just cherry red. Well the differing opinions on whats cherry red vary so greatly that by the time you figure out your opinion on what cherry red is ,is to way to hot you have killed all the properties of 4130 that make it 4130!

    As far as what i preffer i like tig welding best. Mainly because you have so much better control over heat over all the other processes!

    I am an A&P so i do have some level of education and experience in the matter!
    Last edited by workshoprat; 3 Weeks Ago at 08:57 AM. Reason: Error

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    Re: chrome moly airframe

    I think the bigger question is why do you need a certified welder? Is this a certified type certificated aircraft at which point yes you must be AWS D17.1 certified. Or is this a homebuilt where you do not need certification to do your own welding!

    To more directly answer your question.
    http://weldkraft.com
    Last edited by workshoprat; 3 Weeks Ago at 08:55 AM. Reason: More info

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  30. #21
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    Re: chrome moly airframe

    I do not make the rules.
    At time in California for metal Building you could not use MIG.
    You only use stick or flux core and do not know about TIG.

    I just use what the building department's wants it is faster and less headaches.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by workshoprat View Post
    I dont quite understand that. I know kit fox kit planes airframes are welded entirely with mig process. The faa reconizes every welding process out there and one is not preffered over the other just that whatever process you use you do it correctly. I personally have built aircraft parts using all the methods avalible with no issues.

    As far as tig welding goes one other member already covered it best. Use er70s or er80s rod. The 80s has a higher tensile strength than the 70s but either will work just fine. I have tried the cromoly rod and was not pleased with it. As far as the filler being mild steel rod its of no concern because at .030 material thickness the bead is usually much thicker than the parent material anyhow.

    As far as normalizing after welding the idea is to relive any stress that may be built up in a joint due to pulling warpage and so on from itself and other joints when its all completly welded! I attended a seminar at oshkosh on airframe welding and the speaker was a engineer for lincoln welding and he confirmed what i pretty much already thought about the stress relieving process. And that is unless your willing to buy the crayons that let you know what temperature your at your better off to just leave it and not do it. Reason is the saying goes heat it to just cherry red. Well the differing opinions on whats cherry red vary so greatly that by the time you figure out your opinion on what cherry red is ,is to way to hot you have killed all the properties of 4130 that make it 4130!

    As far as what i preffer i like tig welding best. Mainly because you have so much better control over heat over all the other processes!

    I am an A&P so i do have some level of education and experience in the matter!

  31. #22
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    Re: chrome moly airframe

    I have been on some jobs where arc welding was band only torch.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by workshoprat View Post
    I dont quite understand that. I know kit fox kit planes airframes are welded entirely with mig process. The faa reconizes every welding process out there and one is not preffered over the other just that whatever process you use you do it correctly. I personally have built aircraft parts using all the methods avalible with no issues.

    As far as tig welding goes one other member already covered it best. Use er70s or er80s rod. The 80s has a higher tensile strength than the 70s but either will work just fine. I have tried the cromoly rod and was not pleased with it. As far as the filler being mild steel rod its of no concern because at .030 material thickness the bead is usually much thicker than the parent material anyhow.

    As far as normalizing after welding the idea is to relive any stress that may be built up in a joint due to pulling warpage and so on from itself and other joints when its all completly welded! I attended a seminar at oshkosh on airframe welding and the speaker was a engineer for lincoln welding and he confirmed what i pretty much already thought about the stress relieving process. And that is unless your willing to buy the crayons that let you know what temperature your at your better off to just leave it and not do it. Reason is the saying goes heat it to just cherry red. Well the differing opinions on whats cherry red vary so greatly that by the time you figure out your opinion on what cherry red is ,is to way to hot you have killed all the properties of 4130 that make it 4130!

    As far as what i preffer i like tig welding best. Mainly because you have so much better control over heat over all the other processes!

    I am an A&P so i do have some level of education and experience in the matter!

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    Re: chrome moly airframe

    Guys we are talking about welding air frames right? I dont ever remember any time the faa banned or forbid any of the welding process!

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    Re: chrome moly airframe

    Again you find out what what the FAA is willing to weld with.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by workshoprat View Post
    Guys we are talking about welding air frames right? I dont ever remember any time the faa banned or forbid any of the welding process!

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