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Thread: Why not use 7014?

  1. #101
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    Just think you need choose which to give mouth to mouth to the female model or the old guy.
    I think the old guy is in same boat as the horse.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvin View Post
    ...like that old "snakebite victim" joke -- "I've got good news, and I've got bad news..."

  2. #102
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    Quote Originally Posted by Welder Dave View Post
    Visibility with a welding helmet takes time to get used to. Another reason to burn lots of rod. It appears to me that you're trying to find every possible excuse to not be burning rods. You haven't had time to get the machine out but had all kinds of time to type ad nauseum on the forum. If you truly want to learn how to weld it's time to s*it or get off the pot.


    Welder Dave...
    I believe you hit the nail on the head right through the board with a 10 pound hammer.

    Flyfisher
    Dont go too low on that hood setting, if you do ever manage to find a minute to burn more than 3 rods you might have some sore eyepeekers...I use a number 9 all day long. The fellas I work with tell me im nuts and need a number 11 or 12 for all the jetarcin and Innershield weldin I do, but it works for me. But do burn lots and lots rod its the only way you are gonna learn this thing...watch the puddle and what it does, see what works for you and get some muscle memory to the point where its second nature

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  4. #103
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    One other issue I have not seen mentioned in this thread: People go on and on about welding filler strength, and seem to automatically assume that it should always be as strong as possible, but sometimes I suspect that too-strong of a filler is not only not an asset -- it can also be a liability.

    In things that are expected to strain (in other words, bend temporarily or otherwise elastically deform) under stress, using a welding filler that is substantially stronger than the rest of the structure will create a "hard spot" or "stress riser" that will concentrate stress and could lead to premature fatigue cracking at or near the weld.

    For example, in pipe welding, one defect they talk about is "excessive weld reinforcement." You can have excessive weld reinforcement on the inside of the pipe (which would restrict flow through the pipe), but you can also have excessive weld reinforcement on the outside of the pipe. This will create a stress riser on the pipe, and if that pipe is expected to move in service (due to thermal expansion and lengthening of the pipe -- it's gotta go somewhere, so it bends slightly), the weld being "too strong" (because it's too thick) will create a "hard spot" there, and could lead to cracking...which is one reason it's considered a defect.

    I can't think of an example where a 60ksi filler would be preferred over a 70ksi filler, but I suspect examples exist -- at least in theory, and the OP seems to be interested in theory over practice, so I figured I'd throw this out there for discussion by the more knowledgeable members...

  5. #104
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    Not much of a problem with mild steel and a little more advanced to get into. There are applications like bridges where you want them to flex and move so full welds are not used. Some people have used rods like 11018 thinking it will be extra strong but it ends up cracking because it is not the right rod for the steel they are welding. Excessive reinforcement can cause a notch effect at the toes of the weld and wastes filler metal.

  6. #105
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvin View Post
    One other issue I have not seen mentioned in this thread: People go on and on about welding filler strength, and seem to automatically assume that it should always be as strong as possible, but sometimes I suspect that too-strong of a filler is not only not an asset -- it can also be a liability.

    In things that are expected to strain (in other words, bend temporarily or otherwise elastically deform) under stress, using a welding filler that is substantially stronger than the rest of the structure will create a "hard spot" or "stress riser" that will concentrate stress and could lead to premature fatigue cracking at or near the weld.

    For example, in pipe welding, one defect they talk about is "excessive weld reinforcement." You can have excessive weld reinforcement on the inside of the pipe (which would restrict flow through the pipe), but you can also have excessive weld reinforcement on the outside of the pipe. This will create a stress riser on the pipe, and if that pipe is expected to move in service (due to thermal expansion and lengthening of the pipe -- it's gotta go somewhere, so it bends slightly), the weld being "too strong" (because it's too thick) will create a "hard spot" there, and could lead to cracking...which is one reason it's considered a defect.

    I can't think of an example where a 60ksi filler would be preferred over a 70ksi filler, but I suspect examples exist -- at least in theory, and the OP seems to be interested in theory over practice, so I figured I'd throw this out there for discussion by the more knowledgeable members...
    I think maybe you are missing the real cause of the stress riser - the angle the toe enters the base metal.
    As the excess reinforcement increases, the angle at the toe gets steeper.

    Rail road engineers have studied these types of issues for fatigue.
    They found that the largest number of cycles before failure occurred for pieces that were fully welded and ground smooth on both sides.
    So the smoother the transition the better.
    Last edited by MinnesotaDave; 09-12-2020 at 11:16 AM.
    Dave J.

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  8. #106
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    Quote Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave View Post
    I think maybe you are missing the real cause of the stress riser - the angle the toe enters the base metal.
    As the excess reinforcement increases, the angle at the toe gets steeper.

    Rail road engineers have studied these types of issues for fatigue.
    They found that the largest number of cycles before failure occurred for pieces that were fully welded and ground smooth on both sides.
    So the smoother the transition the better.
    Interesting, thanks for explaining it. I actually wondered about that.

    Anybody know of any cases where the weld is ground flush/smooth but you still get a stress riser if the weld deposit is substantially stronger than the base metal?

    This is one of those things that seems to make sense in theory, but I can't think of a practical/actual example of it.

  9. #107
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvin View Post
    I can't think of an example where a 60ksi filler would be preferred over a 70ksi filler, but I suspect examples exist -- at least in theory, and the OP seems to be interested in theory over practice, so I figured I'd throw this out there for discussion by the more knowledgeable members...
    Yeah, look at his thread on patching... handle. 6013 would be ideal. soft arc, lower amps/rod diameter.

  10. #108
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    It's absolutely necessary to spend time burning rods to get good at it. It's also indispensable to be able to most accurately see what you're looking at and understand what it is that you need to see. I haven't been at this for 20-30 years like many people here have but didn't just start yesterday either. The difference between what you can do when you see better IS significant True you gain nothing by not putting that into practice. You can't buy or BS your way out of it. That being said, if drag races could be won by minivans you'd see NHRA guys driving them instead of forking out ungodly amounts of money that they do.

  11. #109
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    Quote Originally Posted by yellowfin View Post
    That being said, if drag races could be won by minivans you'd see NHRA guys driving them instead of forking out ungodly amounts of money that they do.

    You made some valid points but they just got disregarded with the worst possible analogy.

    You may even owe the NHRA a formal apology.
    :

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  13. #110
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvin View Post
    Interesting, thanks for explaining it. I actually wondered about that.

    Anybody know of any cases where the weld is ground flush/smooth but you still get a stress riser if the weld deposit is substantially stronger than the base metal?

    This is one of those things that seems to make sense in theory, but I can't think of a practical/actual example of it.
    Welding a box section of mild steel with 11018 such as a ripper frame on a dozer. Not stress relieving certain grades of steel could also cause it.

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  15. #111
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    Are you welding A36 steel

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by Welder Dave View Post
    Welding a box section of mild steel with 11018 such as a ripper frame on a dozer. Not stress relieving certain grades of steel could also cause it.

  16. #112
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    Not sure what the steel is but it isn't T-1 like 11018 is designed for.

  17. #113
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    Very good choice
    It could be a 1060 steel
    The 1060 steel in rails for trains welding rod spec out 11018-

    T1 is a brand name sometimes call AR plate.
    The work I did it is call A514.
    If you are machining 1045.

    I use for making wheels up to 20" diameter 6" thick Not cheap.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by Welder Dave View Post
    Not sure what the steel is but it isn't T-1 like 11018 is designed for.

  18. #114
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    You're kind of out in left field. T-1 is not an abrasive resistant steel, it is a high strength steel. The best analogy I've heard is 1/4" T-1 is basically as strong as 1" mild steel hence the need for higher strength filler metal.

  19. #115
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    It is T1/A514 is over 100ks
    A36 is around 36ks

    T1 is A514 sometimes AKA as AR plate.
    I said 11018 is a good choice for welding T1

    When I was buying steel T1 was call A514 in 6" plate.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by Welder Dave View Post
    You're kind of out in left field. T-1 is not an abrasive resistant steel, it is a high strength steel. The best analogy I've heard is 1/4" T-1 is basically as strong as 1" mild steel hence the need for higher strength filler metal.

  20. #116
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    Quote Originally Posted by Welder Dave View Post
    Not much of a problem with mild steel and a little more advanced to get into. There are applications like bridges where you want them to flex and move so full welds are not used. Some people have used rods like 11018 thinking it will be extra strong but it ends up cracking because it is not the right rod for the steel they are welding. Excessive reinforcement can cause a notch effect at the toes of the weld and wastes filler metal.
    One thing to also remember here is if you are using 100ksi or greater strength welding filler metal is even if the base metal may not need preheating the high strength welding consumable you may need a preheat. They get the strength of the welding filler metal by alloying it up which then will require preheat even if you were welding A36 base metal or another "low strength" base metal. Not that I am recommending to use 100ksi or greater welding filler metal on A36 but I have seen this issue where someone was using high strength consumables which then cracked, when I asked the question how much preheat did you use the answer was "none the base metal didn't require it".

    RideKTM350
    Last edited by RideKTM350; 09-14-2020 at 04:35 PM.

  21. #117
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    Yes 11018 requires more stringent procedures than 7018. AR stands for abrasion resistant. T-1 (A514) is high strength, AR 400 or 500 is abrasion resistant. A good application for T-1 is building something like a heavy duty excavator bucket. Thinner plate could give more strength while also reducing the weight so lifting capacity isn't affected.

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  23. #118
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    It been a few years I look in notes.
    If remember it about 350

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by RideKTM350 View Post
    One thing to also remember here is if you are using 100ksi or greater strength welding filler metal is even if the base metal may not need preheating the high strength welding consumable you may need a preheat. They get the strength of the welding filler metal by alloying it up which then will require preheat even if you were welding A36 base metal or another "low strength" base metal. Not that I am recommending to use 100ksi or greater welding filler metal on A36 but I have seen this issue where someone was using high strength consumables which then cracked, when I asked the question how much preheat did you use the answer was "none the base metal didn't require it".

    RideKTM350

  24. #119
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    The per heat temperature will very thickness and outside temperature.

    Dave


    Quote Originally Posted by RideKTM350 View Post
    One thing to also remember here is if you are using 100ksi or greater strength welding filler metal is even if the base metal may not need preheating the high strength welding consumable you may need a preheat. They get the strength of the welding filler metal by alloying it up which then will require preheat even if you were welding A36 base metal or another "low strength" base metal. Not that I am recommending to use 100ksi or greater welding filler metal on A36 but I have seen this issue where someone was using high strength consumables which then cracked, when I asked the question how much preheat did you use the answer was "none the base metal didn't require it".

    RideKTM350

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