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Thread: Why not use 7014?

  1. #26
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    Quote Originally Posted by Josey View Post
    Hi I have never heard of 7016 rods I even tried to look them up on the internet and couldn't find them.
    Here are a couple options, manufacturers. You can look up what sizes/quantities you want. The 16p Lincoln is fairly expensive rod it appears.

    https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-u...ncolnElectric)

    https://www.esabna.com/us/en/product...eweld-7016.cfm

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  3. #27
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    Gee I think I have a 50 lb box in deep storage.

  4. #28
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    7016 is an earlier version of a low hydrogen rod but looks like it has favor for some pipe applications. Being kind of a specialty rod for that application it will cost more. 7018 is much more common and you have a fine machine to run it. You're very selective in who's advice you want to listen too. Believe it or not I'm trying to help you but if I was a giving a class on welding I'd be pulling my hair out with all your questions and hypotheses. Get some decent practice pieces and spend more time burning rods and less time trying to figure it out in your head. Generally you start making beads and make a pad of weld overlapping the previous beads. You want it to be smooth with no grooves between the passes. Once you get that figured out you can go on fillet welds. Groove welds generally depend on penetration and often involve more than one type of rod. Trying to speed the process up like you are is more likely to hinder the learning curve than accelerate it. Welding takes a lot of practice and there's no substitute for that.

  5. #29
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    I've had mixed success with 6013. It was the rod I started out with about 24yrs ago.

    It's ok stuff if your design is ok, with a bit of redundancy. More weld. And attention to not overloading the joint.

    I have stuff that's been in service for those 24yrs, and I've also had some of those welds break over time. I suspect the breakage was more associated with fatigue, and undersizing welds.
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  6. #30
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    I've welded with some 7016, the puddle isn't quite as fluid as 7018 since 7016 doesn't have iron powder in the flux.
    Other than that, same rod.

    Don't get hung up over moisture in the flux. Low hydrogen doesn't matter for mild steel. As the tensile increases, it can start to matter.
    7014 is a great rod, no issues vertical up for steel 3/16" thick and above. Lights and weld easily.
    Just like 6013, don't run cold - run nice and hot they weld very well. I even made my tractor forks with 6013 since it's all I had left that day and didn't feel like driving.

    But 7014 and 6013 are not a good choice for impact - use 7018 for that.
    Dave J.

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  8. #31
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    Quote Originally Posted by Popeye an old miner View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Welder Dave View Post
    I find 7018AC often is worse for starting porosity than standard 7018. Another trick you can do is short out the rod on the plate to heat it up before you start welding. You're making it a lot more difficult to learn welding than it needs to be. First all get some wider pieces and learn how to do beads and fillets before you advance to butt welds. Those thin strips are really going to mess with your heat setting. For every 4" you could probably turn your amps down 10%. Like I mentioned previous forget about any background in electronics trying to figure out welding. It doesn't matter what the machine says or the name plate or anything else. You have a good machine. Just get some decent practice coupons and figure out one rod at a time. Jumping all over the place and trying to decipher everything is not the way to learn welding.
    Best advice ive heard yet
    Quote Originally Posted by Welder Dave View Post
    Believe it or not I'm trying to help you but if I was a giving a class on welding I'd be pulling my hair out with all your questions and hypotheses.
    In an attempt at being honest and polite at the same time - people think differently. I can gather, just from the replies you've posted to my posts and others I've read, our minds most definitely work differently. So yes - if you were the teacher/professor of a course I was taking, with the differences in how we think, I would drive you up a wall.

    Interestingly, on the internet you can pick and choose. What is interesting to me about that is how you still choose to engage in conversation, not just with me in my posts, but others as well with as much criticism (constructive and otherwise) that you do. Based on what you just said about teaching a class - I gather that you enjoy passing on knowledge and seeing others grow with, what I gather from your posts etc, has been your trade/craft for many years. That's a noble and rewarding spot to be in. Our minds just don't work in compatible ways. That doesn't mean I throw everything you suggest out the window, but I do take some of the criticism now with quite the grain of salt.

    Why the questions and the hypothesis, as you call them? I am interested, I am doing, and I am learning. That is just in a way that is obviously foreign to you. I don't have someone who's been welding for decades sitting next to me holding my hand when I need it. I have the ability to practice on my own stuff, on my own time, research, discuss, and ask questions. At the end of the day I am learning. Why? Because I want to continue to make stuff, now with a different process, and now with a level of flexibility in a process that opens doors I've never had.

    Quote Originally Posted by Welder Dave View Post
    You're very selective in who's advice you want to listen too.
    Why? Because this was obvious to me:
    Quote Originally Posted by Welder Dave View Post
    if I was a giving a class on welding I'd be pulling my hair out with all your questions and hypotheses.
    That says I irritate you. Mind you, that is not intentional. Again, we just think differently. I am not trying to fit your mold of a student, nor am I asking for your advice packaged in a way that speaks to the depth of what I am asking. Other posts have. If things still aren't coming together to information that satisfies my curiosity I'll change up what I am asking to clarify or turn the discussion a little. Maybe what you say, or others, may make me realize a different angle to a scenario that I didn't think about that leads to more questions.

    Part of my degree is in Education. One of the sayings we had was to teach something well you needed to know it 10x more than the level you're teaching it.

    Instead of being incensed by your criticism, I ignore it. We think differently, that's the bottom line. Your method of communicating doesn't fit the mold of information that fits what I am asking. Simple as that. I am not trying to tick you off saying that. That, also, goes back the other way - my method of learning doesn't fit the mold of how you are accustomed to teaching. That's not a bad thing, they're just different. You can take probably 100 routes to get to Omaha, but at the end of the trip you're still in Omaha. If 5 of those are "short cuts" that doesn't mean those 5 make a lick of sense to me. I might want to check out the attractions, state parks, scenic views, etc along the other routes.

    [QUOTE=Welder Dave;8766531]Get some decent practice pieces and spend more time burning rods and less time trying to figure it out in your head. Generally you start making beads and make a pad of weld overlapping the previous beads. You want it to be smooth with no grooves between the passes. Once you get that figured out you can go on fillet welds. Groove welds generally depend on penetration and often involve more than one type of rod.

    That is sound advice and I appreciate it.

    Right now I have several types of rods and those thin strips to weld on. I had a few scraps of some other stuff, but that has been burned up unless I stack beads on beads. Any other steel around is good project steel that I'm not willing to sacrifice to rod burning. Until I can get, or find, some other steel all I have is the strips. I do have some 3/4"x3" or 4" flat stock from a project I may be willing to cut some off of, but it is still good steel. I'm not in a class at a school somewhere that supplies the coupons, rods, and machines. To that point I think you would agree practice is better than no practice. Arc length, travel speed, positioning (holding the stinger and feeding the rod), and reading), weld pool, and restarts can still be worked on. I can't do that without burning rods.

    Quote Originally Posted by Welder Dave View Post
    Trying to speed the process up like you are is more likely to hinder the learning curve than accelerate it. Welding takes a lot of practice and there's no substitute for that.
    Your interpretation is off. I am not trying to "speed the process up". I am merely stepping through it with what I do, what I see, and what questions I come to. How that is translated to "speeding up" I am not quite sure. I am going to have some fun with the learning, though. Why not? My apologies if you are driven up a wall. Though, that might be fun to see. You're welcome to stay tuned.

  9. #32
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    Quote Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave View Post
    But 7014 and 6013 are not a good choice for impact - use 7018 for that.
    When you say "impact" do you mean "shock loading"? So like the difference between a hoe bucket digging in rocky soil (shocks the structure when the bucket smacks in to a rock) vs a steel rack in a shop where the rack just holds a stable, constant load? Or do you mean the weld actually taking a direct hit - like the teeth of the hoe bucket against the rocks?

  10. #33
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    I'm not a welder, and don't weld on a regular basis. That said, I do about 99% of the welding where I work(machine shop). I would actually rather keep 7014 around than 7018. 7018 is probably the better choice in most cases, but my boss tends to want to buy the cheapest rod available(cuz "it's all the same" ) and beating slag from cheap 7018 is not my idea of fun. The cheap 7018 is also often not hermetically sealed either, and without fail, will give me fits with porosity if I don't put it in the oven for at least a few hours before using it.

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  12. #34
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    Quote Originally Posted by machinisttx View Post
    The cheap 7018 is also often not hermetically sealed either, and without fail, will give me fits with porosity if I don't put it in the oven for at least a few hours before using it.
    That is a good point.

    To be 100% honest, only 1 pack of electrodes I have (the 5/64" 7014 from Blue Demon) was in a sealed package when I got it.

    1/8" 7018 and 1/8" 6011 came from Home Depot in a cardboard sleeve wrapped in plastic. I don't consider that to be a "sealed package".

    Hobart 1/16" 7014's (1lb) were in a clear plastic sleeve with a sticker closing it - not "sealed".

    The rest are Lincoln 5lb plastic containers - 6011 5/32", 6010 1/8" (5P), 7014 1/8". None of those were "sealed" - just a sticker closing them like the Hobarts and bare rods inside the plastic.

    So you may be on to something there.

    I can see if I can get something set up to heat the rods. I'm thinking a toaster oven outside, but not sure that will work or what temp I can get the rods to.

  13. #35
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    FYI
    7018 is a low hydrogen rod.
    It used for when the welded is X-RAYED. It also used when spec out on drawings typically on metal buildings and pipe lines.
    Most work does not need 7018.

    To use 7018 rod it first need heated in a oven just be for welding it very hot over 250°F.
    Most on this group does not heat 7018 and use right out of the box that defeat the use of 7018.
    When I use 7018 I had a rod oven and a 10 pound that was very close to work.

    Most welding does not need low hydrogen and I do not know why. I only had because I was in metal building industry.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyFishn View Post
    I have 3 sizes now of 7014 rod - 1/16", 5/64", and 1/8". I was running the 1/16" with some sheet metal last week and went up to the 5/64" for the same application. I haven't made up my mind if there is much of a benefit with the larger rod for the sheet metal coupons I was working with - they both behave very close as best I can tell, but I didn't run them side-by-side.

    I tried a few 1/8" rods today and ran them side by side with the same size 7018. I get porosity on starts with 7018. From what I've seen in some demo videos that isn't uncommon. However, I get a better weld from the start with 7014 - from the outside it's clean from the very start, no porosity.

    What I seem to not be getting is a whole lot of penetration with butt joints. I have some 3/16" strips that were cut-offs from a project last year that I used as test weld material. I butted two of them against each other at the factory edge (rounded) with a tad bit of a gap. I tacked with 6011 on the far end, then clamped it on the other. As I welded the gap closed pretty quick. However, I didn't make it past where the metal came together at the middle of the butt joint.

    On another bead I long-arc'ed the rod and slowed down. I got too much heat and blew through the metal. So I turned the amperage up and went back to a shorter arc with a moderate speed.

    The surface of the runs looks great. I don't have any undercut or porosity. It just looks like a clean weld.

    I am curious how the welds would hold up under stress testing. I have a hydraulic press so maybe I'll work up a test fixture and do some stress testing.

    Is there a reason why not to use 7014? I know 6010 and 7018 are the "code rods" (generally speaking), but there are a bazillion types of rods out there and 7014 seem to still be popular (maybe that is because they are easier to obtain than some of the other specialty pipe work type rods etc)...

    From what I can tell the 7014 is a good "lay metal down" rod. For a beveled joint of heavier metal it seems like it would be an ideal rod. Same goes for a fillet filler - maybe on top of a 6011 or 6010 root so the root has the deeper penetration.

    In the beveled edge joint (lets say its a butt joint with a bevel on both edges) - by getting the arc on top of each bevel to get a bit of penetration on each would that create a strong enough adhesion to the base metal? If the weld is laid down effectively with a thorough cleaning between layers (IE - no slag entrapment) the weld metal would essentially have full penetration of the joint - just not deep penetration in to the base metal (in to the bevels), just a fill of the bevel.

    In any event, I find the 7014's run pretty well. I'd be curious why others may suggest not using them - specifically the larger rods (say, 3/32" on up).

  14. #36
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    If rods come in a box wrapped with plastic they are hermetically sealed. Generally only 7018 comes this way. You don't need no stinkin' oven for 7018 unless you are doing code work. The difference between static and dynamic loads is like if you had a table rated to hold 1000lbs. placed on it would be a static load. A table rated to have 1000lbs. dropped on it would be a dynamic load. Jumping between different rods and going from beads to butt welds to groove welds and using poor practice pieces will significantly slow the learning process. Buying a strip of 1/4"x2" flat bar is not that expensive. I bet if you stopped at a fabrication shop and asked if they had some scrap you could practice on they'd give it you or sell it very cheap if it was just going in their scrap bin anyways. I really think you need to stop trying to analyze every little detail and just burn rods on decent practice coupons. Figure out one rod instead of experimenting with several different rods at the same time. Sometimes it doesn't matter what your learning process is, you listen to the advice and follow it instead of trying to do it your own way. I was very fortunate I went to a trade school and had a very experienced instructor. If you could find an experienced welder to give you some 1 on 1 instruction would be the best thing you could do. Might cost a little but would well worth it. Even when experienced journeyman welders take their initial pressure test it is on 6" sch. 80 pipe. Sch. 40 pipe would cause problems for beginners on pipe because it would get too hot and mess them up. 1/4" plate or flat bar 6" long and 2" wide is common for practice pieces. Typically a 1/8" rod will burn about 6". This is the best size of rods to learn on. Get decent with 7014, then go to 7018 and 6010 but remember 6010 generally uses a whipping technique. Welding takes a lot of practice and there is always continuous learning.
    Last edited by Welder Dave; 09-07-2020 at 02:01 AM.

  15. #37
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    Quote Originally Posted by Welder Dave View Post
    You have a good machine. Just get some decent practice coupons and figure out one rod at a time. Jumping all over the place and trying to decipher everything is not the way to learn welding.
    Best advice of the thread.

  16. #38
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    7018 it helps to start 3/8" ahead and circle back and then go forward circle weaving and as puddle and part warms up some stop weaving or reduce amount to maintain weld width
    . if you just start arc and move forward yes the cold arc start can have pin hole porosity and lack of penetration and be smaller weld bead width on cold start.
    all rods need some time to warm up puddle if you weld over arc start, remelts it and reduces porosity. takes practice. obviously pipe welders learn to use 7018 and not get porosity
    .
    7014 getting slag entrapment on weld starts almost same thing will help warm up arc start and puddle, got to watch 6013, 7014, 7024 all if too cold weld might appear not bad
    but can easily not be a good weld with enough penetration. you get more trouble if rod to small for part thickness and even at max amps rod can take you can have not enough
    heat. for example using 3/32 rod on 3/8 or thicker, with 7018 you can weld ok, but 6013, 7014, 7024 cannot do it or rather need a bigger rod for better results. slag entrapment
    in weld is obvious sign heat way too cold or low
    Last edited by WNY_TomB; 09-07-2020 at 08:19 AM.

  17. #39
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyFishn View Post
    When you say "impact" do you mean "shock loading"? So like the difference between a hoe bucket digging in rocky soil (shocks the structure when the bucket smacks in to a rock) vs a steel rack in a shop where the rack just holds a stable, constant load? Or do you mean the weld actually taking a direct hit - like the teeth of the hoe bucket against the rocks?
    Google
    "ductility"
    "elongation"
    "stress vs strain"
    "elastic deformation" vs "inelastic deformation"
    "yield strength" vs "ultimate tensile strength"

    Whether or not it's kept in a low-hydrogen state in an oven, 7018 has a lot of ductility, meaning you can beat the snot out of it with a hammer -- well beyond the point where it "yields" or stretches/moves permanently -- long before it actually cracks or breaks. It's "tough" in that sense and will take more abuse than a less-ductile filler after it yields but before it fails. It will "permanently stretch" (or elongate) far more than a less-ductile filler before it finally breaks.



    (We probably don't need to see pictures of the amperage pointer on your welder.)
    Last edited by Kelvin; 09-07-2020 at 08:25 AM.

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  19. #40
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    Quote Originally Posted by Welder Dave View Post
    If rods come in a box wrapped with plastic they are hermetically sealed. Generally only 7018 comes this way.
    The cellophane on the outside of a cardboard box doesn't seem to me to be "hermetically sealed". The Blue Demon 5/64" 7014's came in a plastic tube wrapped in cellophane, then inside the tube was a thick vacuum sealed pouch, and inside that was a round bundle of rods wrapped with thick paper and round plastic caps on the end. The vacuum sealed pouch I would consider "hermetically sealed".

    Are Lincoln's plastic boxes and/or cardboard boxes (from Home Depot) wrapped in cellophane really "hermetically sealed"? Or is that just a personal interpretation that "it is wrapped in plastic, it must be hermetically sealed"?

    The reason I am not so sure is that cellophane on the outside can too easily be snagged and torn. That and I would be suspicious of where the cellophane comes together at the ends - is that area sealed up completely?

    The vacuum pouches are no-brainers. They wouldn't hold a vacuum if they weren't hermetically sealed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Welder Dave View Post
    You don't need no stinkin' oven for 7018 unless you are doing code work. The difference between static and dynamic loads is like if you had a table rated to hold 1000lbs. placed on it would be a static load. A table rated to have 1000lbs. dropped on it would be a dynamic load. Jumping between different rods and going from beads to butt welds to groove welds and using poor practice pieces will significantly slow the learning process. Buying a strip of 1/4"x2" flat bar is not that expensive. I bet if you stopped at a fabrication shop and asked if they had some scrap you could practice on they'd give it you or sell it very cheap if it was just going in their scrap bin anyways. I really think you need to stop trying to analyze every little detail and just burn rods on decent practice coupons. Figure out one rod instead of experimenting with several different rods at the same time. Sometimes it doesn't matter what your learning process is, you listen to the advice and follow it instead of trying to do it your own way. I was very fortunate I went to a trade school and had a very experienced instructor. If you could find an experienced welder to give you some 1 on 1 instruction would be the best thing you could do. Might cost a little but would well worth it. Even when experienced journeyman welders take their initial pressure test it is on 6" sch. 80 pipe. Sch. 40 pipe would cause problems for beginners on pipe because it would get too hot and mess them up. 1/4" plate or flat bar 6" long and 2" wide is common for practice pieces. Typically a 1/8" rod will burn about 6". This is the best size of rods to learn on. Get decent with 7014, then go to 7018 and 6010 but remember 6010 generally uses a whipping technique. Welding takes a lot of practice and there is always continuous learning.
    I hear you on all. I will have to see what I can come up with.

  20. #41
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    Sounds like a classic case of " analysis paralysis". Spreadsheets and scientific theorys will get you nowhere, just burn the damn electrodes until you can do it without questioning everything.

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  22. #42
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    Quote Originally Posted by M J D View Post
    Sounds like a classic case of " analysis paralysis". Spreadsheets and scientific theorys will get you nowhere, just burn the damn electrodes until you can do it without questioning everything.
    This is very good advice.
    Dave J.

    Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~

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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    It's all about the mud, the blood, and the beer doooooooodName:  erniefp.png
Views: 133
Size:  13.7 KB Just light 'em up, and see how they run.

    (Awaiting usual smartass reply)

  24. #44
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    Quote Originally Posted by farmersammm View Post
    It's all about the mud, the blood, and the beer doooooooodName:  erniefp.png
Views: 133
Size:  13.7 KB Just light 'em up, and see how they run.

    (Awaiting usual smartass reply)
    There it is....but this guy dont understand that yet....thinks he can learn it from a book i think

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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    And a good Labor Day to ya out there in PA The colors on those trees up in the hills ought to be starting now.

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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    Or maybe it's a bit early, dunno....... We mostly have Cedars here, green all the time, and God's torment to the good people of Oklahoma.

  27. #47
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    Thanks to WW and all these posts I now realize “X-Rayed” and “X Rated” are not the same thing.
    :

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  29. #48
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    I didn't get far enough to try some oven-heated 7018 (@350deg), had storms blow in and they're still here, but I did another round of out-of-the-box 7018. I am still getting porosity seemingly no matter what I do. That isn't to question it and ask "why" - I am just stating.

    I am hoping tomorrow I can run some "dry" rods out of an oven for comparison.

    These are the AC version of the Lincoln 7018's still.

    Name:  7018 no oven 1_8in 9.7.20.jpg
Views: 140
Size:  40.6 KB

    What happened with the bead at 3 in the middle has me curious. I am not sure why that bulge is there. On all the beads I started about 3/4" ahead of the start, backed up, and started slow to allow the start to get some heat under the flux cup before letting the rod burn in the groove on the cup. So the bulge that appeared in the middle - once the rod was going and riding on the cup - seems very odd.

    I got some porosity in the middle of 5. It is hard to tell with the light reflection but there are holes in there, not just at the start.

  30. #49
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    https://images.app.goo.gl/YLMW4qzxK1e2Z7Gk9

    Buy this book and refer to it often. Considered the Bible of arc welding. You can find the answers to all your questions


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  32. #50
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    Re: Why not use 7014?

    Post material sizes, rod size and machine settings along with pictures of the welds. Also for now it might be better to try running individual beads, not overlapping beads. Need to crawl then walk before you can run.
    Mike

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