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Thread: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

  1. #1
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    Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Hey all,

    I started a thread here a while back

    https://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthrea...r-rod-for-709M

    but am getting closer to doing the job. Ill be welding some 709M (basically 4140) to the end of an axle housing flange. I do not know what the flange is made from.

    I hope to have a piece of each for test welding.

    I have ordered the correct filler rods for he 709M, but im concerned that there may be a problem with cracking and the axle flange material.

    When you get cracking in the weld with dissimilar steels, is the cracking obvious to the eye, or only seen by X Ray?

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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Here is a pic of the part (everybody likes pics)
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Quote Originally Posted by husq2100 View Post
    Here is a pic of the part (everybody likes pics)
    Nice pics always add so much to a post!!!!


    Sorry I don't have any helpful info on the welding part though...

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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    I recon the flange is likely to be a low carbon steel.
    You don't say what welding process you intend to use.

    ER90S-B2 would be ok for GMAW or GTAW.
    E9018-B2 would be ok for SMAW.

    High preheat and interpass while welding.
    Stress relieving immediately after welding is a must for reasonable mechanical properties and reducing potential for delayed cracking.

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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Quote Originally Posted by Woznme View Post
    I recon the flange is likely to be a low carbon steel.
    You don't say what welding process you intend to use.

    ER90S-B2 would be ok for GMAW or GTAW.
    E9018-B2 would be ok for SMAW.

    High preheat and interpass while welding.
    Stress relieving immediately after welding is a must for reasonable mechanical properties and reducing potential for delayed cracking.
    Sorry about that, I will be using GMAW for the job, Filler ROD is ER90S-B3, It will only be a partial penetration butt weld around the outside dia of one of the flanges of spacer to flange of axle housing. The parts will also be bolted as per the 7 factory bolt holes in axle flange.

    I will definitely be pre and post heating as per material spec, I have a thermo temp gun for temps. I may also peen the welds between runs (there will only be 2 maybe 3 passes)

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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    why are you using ER90S-B3? B2 and B3 are specifically creep resistant fillers, I've read through the old thread and Shovelon did say that B3 would be suitable, and generally I do trust his judgment, however I have ALOT of experience (see my posted threads) in the power industry here in Australia where B2 and B3 materials are very common, and ER80s-B2 and ER 90s-B3 (and they're SMAW counterparts) don't seem to be very common in the US, so I feel the need to point out a few things and to highlight that most people in the U.S don't seem to have a whole lot of experience with B2 and B3 and seem to lump them in with other 80k (for B2) or 90k (for B3) PSI welding consumables, which I dont think is a good idea.

    Creep resistant steel's like B2 and B3 resist deformation over time at high temperatures due to carbide precipitation, they are SPECIFICALLY designed for applications with low dynamic load at very high temperatures and stress such power station boilers tubes (think 2400 psi at 600 degree's C (1150 degrees F).

    B3 must be preheated to and accurately maintained at around 280 C throughout welding, and must be immediately (as in not allowed to cool between welding and pre heat) post weld heat treated to around 700C for 8-12 hours to prevent crackings, which it will especially on a constrained joint such as a flange weld, and even on the welding front B3 is very prone to creator cracks, hot HAZ cracking and gas pores.

    pretty much what I'm getting at is that B3 is not a good rod for welding unknown material, it has a very specific use and has very specific requirements for welding that I honestly don't think suite your application.

    I know that 709M is still a chrome-molybdenum alloy as B3 is, however B3 has 20% of the carbon of 709M (B3 is very low carbon, actually less than half that of mild steel specifically to limit carbide formation at high temperature which causes brittleness and cracking), 2.5 times the chrome and 5 times the molybdenum, they are meant for fundamentally different applications and if this is not a part intended to see very high temperature AND very high static stress service (such as that seen in a high pressure, high temp boiler) then B3 is not the right filler for this.

    to answer your actual question cracking may not be obvious by eye, using the material you;ve chosen you don't need X-ray, a magnetic particle inspection will find cracking as if B3 cracks it will all the way through, it won;t be underbead cracking that need X ray or UT to see it.

    I suggest using 309L filler material, it is the go to material for dissimilar steel, It may not be the best filler material, but I think since you don't know the material of the land rover axle housing that it is the safest choice unless you know the material you are welding this 709M flange too.
    Last edited by ttoks; 09-09-2020 at 06:44 AM.

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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Very interesting discussion, but midway through the last comment I saw "B3 is very prone to creator cracks," and it made me chuckle .

    ER90S-B3 CR-MO WELDING WIRE
    STATEMENT OF LIABILITY- DISCLAIMER
    Any suggestion of product applications or results is given without representation or warranty, either expressed or implied. Without
    exception or limitation, there are no warranties of merchantability or of fitness for particular purpose or application. The user must fully
    evaluate every process and application in all aspects, including suitability, compliance with applicable law and non-infringement of the
    rights of others. The Harris Products Group and its affiliates shall have no liability in respect thereof.
    APPLICATION:
    90S-B3 is used to weld such alloys as 2 1/4% Cr-1% Mo steels, which are found in high temperature and high pressure piping and vessels.
    May also be used on carbon steels to Cr-Mo steels but should always have careful control of preheat, inter-pass and post-heat to avoid
    cracking. Use with a pre-heat and inter-pass temperature of 375°f minimum.
    TYPICAL MECHANICAL PROPERTIES AS WELDED:
    (Post weld heat treatment 1250—1300°f for 1 hour)

    ER90S-B3 seems like it requires the most work of all . Do you have an oven, of will you be using a torch?https://www.weldingweb.com/images/smilies/blob_fire.gif
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    If using tig, ER310 (25% Cr, 20% Ni) is supposedly good for dissimilar steels, including higher-carbon steels. The nickel content gives it more ductility and helps prevent carbide migration from the substrate into the weld deposit (which could make it brittle and prone to cracking). Lincoln recommends it for tool steels.

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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Quote Originally Posted by ttoks View Post
    why are you using ER90S-B3? B2 and B3 are specifically creep resistant fillers, I've read through the old thread and Shovelon did say that B3 would be suitable, and generally I do trust his judgment, however I have ALOT of experience (see my posted threads) in the power industry here in Australia where B2 and B3 materials are very common, and ER80s-B2 and ER 90s-B3 (and they're SMAW counterparts) don't seem to be very common in the US, so I feel the need to point out a few things and to highlight that most people in the U.S don't seem to have a whole lot of experience with B2 and B3 and seem to lump them in with other 80k (for B2) or 90k (for B3) PSI welding consumables, which I dont think is a good idea.

    Creep resistant steel's like B2 and B3 resist deformation over time at high temperatures due to carbide precipitation, they are SPECIFICALLY designed for applications with low dynamic load at very high temperatures and stress such power station boilers tubes (think 2400 psi at 600 degree's C (1150 degrees F).

    B3 must be preheated to and accurately maintained at around 280 C throughout welding, and must be immediately (as in not allowed to cool between welding and pre heat) post weld heat treated to around 700C for 8-12 hours to prevent crackings, which it will especially on a constrained joint such as a flange weld, and even on the welding front B3 is very prone to creator cracks, hot HAZ cracking and gas pores.

    pretty much what I'm getting at is that B3 is not a good rod for welding unknown material, it has a very specific use and has very specific requirements for welding that I honestly don't think suite your application.

    I know that 709M is still a chrome-molybdenum alloy as B3 is, however B3 has 20% of the carbon of 709M (B3 is very low carbon, actually less than half that of mild steel specifically to limit carbide formation at high temperature which causes brittleness and cracking), 2.5 times the chrome and 5 times the molybdenum, they are meant for fundamentally different applications and if this is not a part intended to see very high temperature AND very high static stress service (such as that seen in a high pressure, high temp boiler) then B3 is not the right filler for this.

    to answer your actual question cracking may not be obvious by eye, using the material you;ve chosen you don't need X-ray, a magnetic particle inspection will find cracking as if B3 cracks it will all the way through, it won;t be underbead cracking that need X ray or UT to see it.

    I suggest using 309L filler material, it is the go to material for dissimilar steel, It may not be the best filler material, but I think since you don't know the material of the land rover axle housing that it is the safest choice unless you know the material you are welding this 709M flange too.
    Thank you very much for taking the time for that detailed reply. Given the hours I have in the two spacers (manual machining with limited tooling) I dont want to F them up.

    The short answer to why B3, As someone with little experience, I just read the material data sheet. It did not list a filler rod, only rods and mig wire. The B3 was the same as the mig wire.

    Given that the 4140 spacer is stronger than the rest of the housing and probably the swivel ball attaching to it, im pretty confident I can use a filler that may down on strength a bit, that is, especially if the B3 is going to cause a bad weld anyway.

    When I asked the welding supply about 312 filler in the end they could not get it.

    Ill contact my local suppliers and ask about 309L.

    Unfortunetaly, I have little access to knowledgeable people in this field, the shops are of little use.

    cheers
    Serg

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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Quote Originally Posted by albrightree View Post
    Very interesting discussion, but midway through the last comment I saw "B3 is very prone to creator cracks," and it made me chuckle .

    ER90S-B3 CR-MO WELDING WIRE
    STATEMENT OF LIABILITY- DISCLAIMER
    Any suggestion of product applications or results is given without representation or warranty, either expressed or implied. Without
    exception or limitation, there are no warranties of merchantability or of fitness for particular purpose or application. The user must fully
    evaluate every process and application in all aspects, including suitability, compliance with applicable law and non-infringement of the
    rights of others. The Harris Products Group and its affiliates shall have no liability in respect thereof.
    APPLICATION:
    90S-B3 is used to weld such alloys as 2 1/4% Cr-1% Mo steels, which are found in high temperature and high pressure piping and vessels.
    May also be used on carbon steels to Cr-Mo steels but should always have careful control of preheat, inter-pass and post-heat to avoid
    cracking. Use with a pre-heat and inter-pass temperature of 375°f minimum.
    TYPICAL MECHANICAL PROPERTIES AS WELDED:
    (Post weld heat treatment 1250—1300°f for 1 hour)

    ER90S-B3 seems like it requires the most work of all . Do you have an oven, of will you be using a torch?https://www.weldingweb.com/images/smilies/blob_fire.gif
    I dont have an oven big enough for an axle housing unfortunately. So torch with rose bud it is.

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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Use a propane weed burner torch for preheat. They aren't expensive and way cheaper and faster to use than a rosebud for heating large pieces. You're not heating red hot. Temperature guns aren't generally recommended for welding applications because they aren't as accurate as Tempil sticks (temp. crayons). Dye penetrant would show cracks if they go all the way through as well. Are there any other welding supplies that you could try to get 312 filler?

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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    I guess first off..........this stuff ain't really supposed to be welded http://www.matweb.com/search/datashe...4e502e6f992c7d

    If it is welded, taking into account the nearest ASTM steel is 4140, it should be welded in the annealed state http://www.interlloy.com.au/our-prod...el/?output=pdf. If welded in hardened state, it's a bit more complicated according to the specs.

    Why you'd weld this stuff with TIG is beyond me, especially such a large piece that's gonna soak up a lot of heat. Most recommendations call for low-hy SMAW.

    Sorry, I guess it's SAE 4140
    Last edited by farmersammm; 09-11-2020 at 01:17 PM. Reason: last sentence added

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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    I really shouldn't have gotten into this conversation..........this stuff isn't something I do. I always shy away from steel that involves weldability issues, so I can't say anything from experience.

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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Quote Originally Posted by Welder Dave View Post
    Use a propane weed burner torch for preheat. They aren't expensive and way cheaper and faster to use than a rosebud for heating large pieces. You're not heating red hot. Temperature guns aren't generally recommended for welding applications because they aren't as accurate as Tempil sticks (temp. crayons). Dye penetrant would show cracks if they go all the way through as well. Are there any other welding supplies that you could try to get 312 filler?
    Price and availability differs from you to me (sucks for me). I already have the Oxy/acetylene set up so will stick with that. The last time I ordered a temp stick, it took over 5 weeks to come in stock (none of the welding supplies carry them local to me) And again, Dye penetrant kits, I actually just tried yesterday, no longer carry or will get in. (that was just one shop)

    You might be shaking your head, but its much more frustrating for me. Where I live the population is 500,000. There are 3 or four welding supply shops. One I refuse to use as they have been dishonest twice in the past (and Ive heard same from others) plus their range is no better. The other two - BOC, is Australia wide, but they have a set range (decided by someone in head office) if it isn't in their catalogue or computer they don't get it or wont get it. Example, they are the Australian agents for CK Worldwide, but rebadge it as theirs, they only bring in a small range of it to suit their needs, they will not get anything else from them. They use to get the B3 rod, but was listed as NLA, so could not help. Shame because otherwise they are good to deal with and who I get my gas through.

    The other shop is the one that took 5 weeks to get the temp stick, and when they were the only one that could get the B3 filler rod, took them over a month even though I payed for it up front and had to order 5kg of it. (btw its nothing to do with Covid)

    Sometime we just have to make do with what we have. I would have thought the temp gun not that inaccurate, and its pretty idiot proof to use. I would also need more than one temp stick (for pre and post heat as temps are different)

    Regarding the 312 filler, The shop that I asked was in the next major city to me, the guy apparently phoned all his various suppliers and other shops, could not get it. When I google it, I found one shop on the other side of Australia that had it listed, it would probably be easier to get from Arc-Zone in the USA....

    I will try and get a dye penetrant kit, I think that would be good on my test pieces.

    thanks for your help.

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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Quote Originally Posted by farmersammm View Post
    I guess first off..........this stuff ain't really supposed to be welded http://www.matweb.com/search/datashe...4e502e6f992c7d

    If it is welded, taking into account the nearest ASTM steel is 4140, it should be welded in the annealed state http://www.interlloy.com.au/our-prod...el/?output=pdf. If welded in hardened state, it's a bit more complicated according to the specs.

    Why you'd weld this stuff with TIG is beyond me, especially such a large piece that's gonna soak up a lot of heat. Most recommendations call for low-hy SMAW.

    Sorry, I guess it's SAE 4140

    That really wasnt helpful at all....lol

    as for process, it aint rocket science, I GTAW, I have never SMAW.

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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Didn't realise you were down the coast. Try State of the Arc Welding Supplies in brizy. If they have to order in it's usually less than a week.

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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Queensland welding suppy in brizy list b3 in stock

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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    I keep 309, can't remember if I have 312, I'll check on Monday.

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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Quote Originally Posted by farmersammm View Post
    I guess first off..........this stuff ain't really supposed to be welded http://www.matweb.com/search/datashe...4e502e6f992c7d

    If it is welded, taking into account the nearest ASTM steel is 4140, it should be welded in the annealed state http://www.interlloy.com.au/our-prod...el/?output=pdf. If welded in hardened state, it's a bit more complicated according to the specs.

    Why you'd weld this stuff with TIG is beyond me, especially such a large piece that's gonna soak up a lot of heat. Most recommendations call for low-hy SMAW.

    Sorry, I guess it's SAE 4140
    GMAW is Mig not Tig (GTAW).

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  26. #20
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Quote Originally Posted by Welder Dave View Post
    GMAW is Mig not Tig (GTAW).
    Yep, brain fart

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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    312 has been my choice for most mystery metal mixtures. Very few problems when welding unknown steel mixtures together(carbon and or stainless). Although none have had UT or Xray, they just haven't broken again , yet.

    good luck
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Quote Originally Posted by Woznme View Post
    I keep 309, can't remember if I have 312, I'll check on Monday.
    Thanks mate, and that’s good to hear it’s available. QWS was where I bought my Harris torch kit, they couldn’t get the 312. Tbh I was a little underwhelmed by their range ( I think I was expecting arc-zone or something) also looks like they’ve lost Fronius , and the sales guy tried to sell me a unimig over anything else even though I was showing interest in higher end stuff ����*♂️

    I’ll try State of the Arc ��

    Shame I have to drive an hour each way just for simple stuff ����*♂️

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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Quote Originally Posted by husq2100 View Post
    Thanks mate, and that’s good to hear it’s available. QWS was where I bought my Harris torch kit, they couldn’t get the 312. Tbh I was a little underwhelmed by their range ( I think I was expecting arc-zone or something) also looks like they’ve lost Fronius , and the sales guy tried to sell me a unimig over anything else even though I was showing interest in higher end stuff ����*♂️

    I’ll try State of the Arc ��

    Shame I have to drive an hour each way just for simple stuff ����*♂️
    do you have any blackwoods stores around there? they are more of an industrial supplier but at least the one near me (in gippsland VIC) has quite an incredible range of pretty much everything, its just all in they're warehouse out the back of the shop so you have to ask for someone to go out back and have a look, its not on the shelf.

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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Quote Originally Posted by ttoks View Post
    do you have any blackwoods stores around there? they are more of an industrial supplier but at least the one near me (in gippsland VIC) has quite an incredible range of pretty much everything, its just all in they're warehouse out the back of the shop so you have to ask for someone to go out back and have a look, its not on the shelf.
    There use to be one around the corner, I went there a few times 20 years ago... same set up. Then when online became a thing they reduced it to a store front and would order in from their warehouse. Then they closed the doors. One thing, they were never very competitive on price.

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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Quote Originally Posted by husq2100 View Post
    There use to be one around the corner, I went there a few times 20 years ago... same set up. Then when online became a thing they reduced it to a store front and would order in from their warehouse. Then they closed the doors. One thing, they were never very competitive on price.
    it's a shame they closed, they're not very competitive on price to Jo blow but they do have everything, but they do give some pretty hefty discounts, when I was an apprentice I went into my local to buy a spanner set, price on the shelf was something like $170 I told them I was an apprentice so was there anything they could do, ended up walking out with it for $56, now I just go in and say hey wanting XX I work for company YY and get the company discount, usually 30-40% off of they're retails walk in price.

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