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Thread: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

  1. #26
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Quote Originally Posted by ttoks View Post
    it's a shame they closed, they're not very competitive on price to Jo blow but they do have everything, but they do give some pretty hefty discounts, when I was an apprentice I went into my local to buy a spanner set, price on the shelf was something like $170 I told them I was an apprentice so was there anything they could do, ended up walking out with it for $56, now I just go in and say hey wanting XX I work for company YY and get the company discount, usually 30-40% off of they're retails walk in price.
    Yes they use to have a good range and of good quality products. But on price, I think they got use to big accounts like city council etc. An old friend of mine had an account with them for at least 30 years (he had an engineering business) when he retired to move out west, he bought a big Hitachi jackhammer from them, only to return it after finding out the walk off the street price for a random small hardware store, 1000km inland, was cheaper than his account price....
    Last edited by husq2100; 09-13-2020 at 07:50 AM.

  2. #27
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    I have an account with them, I can check store stock and price on line Monday. I find they have to order it in unless it's run of the mill stuff. And yes price is not favourable unless it's on special. I did get a Lincoln 4c papr hood half price on special from them. Was new in sealed box but the hood battery was flat.

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  4. #28
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    I got a little more machining done yesterday, still the other side to get to same stage, then off to a workshop to mill drill the 7 holes (all the same PCD but 5 on a 6 hole and 2 on a 9 hole) Ignore the rough internal corners, I didnt have a radius tool so left material on for the machine shop to do.

    The flange on the spacer (weld side) is 12mm thick (just under 1/2"), the flange on axle housing is 16mm thick (5/8") The flange on spacer is a bigger OD than the housing flange, by about 8mm (5/16) so it leaves a 4mm (17/64") higher point to create a small fillet. The partial penetration but prep will not be very deep, less than 3mm (1/8th) but given the OD is 122mm (5") that is 383mm of weld length (15.09")

    I tapered the back side of the spacer flange right back to bolt washers OD, this allows the flange edge to distort with the weld and hopefully not the whole spacer.

    looking at the coil spring mount welded to the axle flange, I think I might remove it and re fit/weld it after welding in the spacer. IT is very much in the way, and that big dirty GMAW will probably contaminate the weld (im thinking)

    What is the best way to remove oil from the steel of axle housing flange? I have washed the housing in washing powder a few times. Im thinking wire wheel everything, run the oxy over it a few times, wire wheel again and then clean with acetone?

    The spacer will be bolted up with temp bolts for welding, then removed and ARP studs installed for use.
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  5. #29
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    I would be more concerned with the sharp cut on the inner shoulders on the spool, more so than the weld. Just something I've noticed over the years, engineer wants to cut in a clearance on a part. They just make a channel, cut , groove on the drawing with no radius, easier for the machinist too. Sharp corners on overhanging loads often lead to cracks, even more so in aluminum.



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    Just an observation, I'm sure you have this all approved, and worked out. Hope you find the materials you're looking for, and get it completed.
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  6. #30
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Quote Originally Posted by albrightree View Post
    I would be more concerned with the sharp cut on the inner shoulders on the spool, more so than the weld. Just something I've noticed over the years, engineer wants to cut in a clearance on a part. They just make a channel, cut , groove on the drawing with no radius, easier for the machinist too. Sharp corners on overhanging loads often lead to cracks, even more so in aluminum.



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    Just an observation, I'm sure you have this all approved, and worked out. Hope you find the materials you're looking for, and get it completed.
    Quoting myself from the post you are referring to....

    Ignore the rough internal corners, I didnt have a radius tool so left material on for the machine shop to do.
    Last edited by husq2100; 09-13-2020 at 05:28 PM.

  7. #31
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Blackwoods quote $88.24 incl GST. No stock Brisbane, estimate 11 days click and collect. (ER90S-B3, 2.4mm)
    312 is not on their product list.

    BobTheWelder in Ballina shows 312 in stock. https://www.bobthewelder.com.au/Stainless-Steel/
    So you gotta bust the corona border or have it shipped to you.

  8. #32
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Quote Originally Posted by Woznme View Post
    Blackwoods quote $88.24 incl GST. No stock Brisbane, estimate 11 days click and collect. (ER90S-B3, 2.4mm)
    312 is not on their product list.

    BobTheWelder in Ballina shows 312 in stock. https://www.bobthewelder.com.au/Stainless-Steel/
    So you gotta bust the corona border or have it shipped to you.
    Thanks mate, I already have the B3 in 1.6mm (5 bloody kg of it!) so if you ever need a few rods ....)

    Ill try SOTA in Brissy for the 312, If they dont, I have a mate that lives just outside Ballina, He could pic it up and drop to Tweed, where I can legally go.

    I have done a small test piece in mild steel to represent both flanges section, and weld prep, so as to determine amps. I even drilled, taped and bolted at the correct edge distance (as youll see its very close and I cant stuff this up by penetrating the bolt). Got a little too much penetration as weld prep was too close to hole edge but at least it gives me an idea. I pre heated the test piece also as I feel that affects the amps/penetration when welding.

    I broke the pieces apart by belting in (from the opposite edge) a small cold chisel. You can see that the build up at my start side needs a little work. This was two passes (root and fill) depending on the day and how its welding out, I may need to do three passes to get a nice profile right up to the outside corner of the spacer flange?

    Comments welcome.
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  9. #33
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    The above post of mine has the weld prep and root run of test piece. This one shows second, fill pass and break. Note, I penetrated edge of hole and bolt. Bolt snapped on removal , this is not an option!

    The reason for the funny start near right hand end is when I was welding I did a false start there, that is I started (wasnt thinking) then thought as the real pieces are round, there is no "end" to start on. So I stopped moved in a little and started again (hope that makes sense)

    2.4mm tungsten at about 45 degrees sharpened
    1.6mm filler
    300c pre heat
    140 amps for root
    160 for second and 3rd passes ( I just looked up my notes as I did this a little while ago, I thought it was 2 passes but notes say 3?)

    2nd and 3rd passes were done when test piece had cooled to 300c.
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    Last edited by husq2100; 09-13-2020 at 09:51 PM.

  10. #34
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    I've never seen a joint prepped like that, but I haven't seen everything there is to see I guess. I'm surprised you didn't bevel it.

    Name:  clamp protection2.jpg
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Size:  117.3 KB If you have a relatively narrow joint like this, I like a single pass with a 5/32 rod. The bevel allows the heat to get into both shoulders............ A wider joint, or using smaller diameter rods...........I'd do a coupla passes with the arc focused on the shoulders, not the root. Weld against one side, then weld against the other side. I'd not trust the heat of the puddle to adequately fuse with the walls of the trench if I focused the heat straight into the root on all passes. Either way.........I like the bevel prep, not a straight slot.

    I sure wish you had a stick machine to do this..........so much easier, and IMHO more sound. But, that's just my opinion.......and I'm not too proficient with MIG.

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    Backfill the crater, the grind it flush if it needs to be flush as in this case.

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  11. #35
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Quote Originally Posted by farmersammm View Post
    I've never seen a joint prepped like that, but I haven't seen everything there is to see I guess. I'm surprised you didn't bevel it.

    Name:  clamp protection2.jpg
Views: 95
Size:  117.3 KB If you have a relatively narrow joint like this, I like a single pass with a 5/32 rod. The bevel allows the heat to get into both shoulders............ A wider joint, or using smaller diameter rods...........I'd do a coupla passes with the arc focused on the shoulders, not the root. Weld against one side, then weld against the other side. I'd not trust the heat of the puddle to adequately fuse with the walls of the trench if I focused the heat straight into the root on all passes. Either way.........I like the bevel prep, not a straight slot.

    I sure wish you had a stick machine to do this..........so much easier, and IMHO more sound. But, that's just my opinion.......and I'm not too proficient with MIG.

    Name:  clamp protection3.jpg
Views: 93
Size:  133.8 KB

    Backfill the crater, the grind it flush if it needs to be flush as in this case.

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Views: 93
Size:  129.7 KB
    It has been pointed out to me that a wider weld shrinks more as it transforms from molten weld to solid and then further cools. The shrinkage leads to greater stress and resulting distortion.

    Remember, this weld is working in conjunction with the 7 x M10 studs, it is there to help get the strength required, not to do all the work. As It would be a pain in the butt to put the whole housing in a press, straighten and then in a lathe big enough to true the ends, Im looking for as little distortion as possible.

    Regarding the prep, it is based on the J prep, just two face to face to create U prep. I just dont have the luxury of big prep joints. If it was possible id like more radius on the bottom of my joint but I dont have the tooling to do so.
    Last edited by husq2100; 09-13-2020 at 10:46 PM.

  12. #36
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Quote Originally Posted by farmersammm View Post

    I sure wish you had a stick machine to do this..........so much easier, and IMHO more sound. But, that's just my opinion.......and I'm not too proficient with MIG.
    Ok, I did a typo back at the beginning of this thread where I wrote GMAW INSTEAD of GTAW, but if you haven't figured it out by now im GTAW - TIG!

    and again, it wouldn't matter if I had "STICK" , I have no experience in it!

  13. #37
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    I see your point, I guess I'm just not used to seeing the J configuration,, or the U configuration.

    Actually, if you have an angle grinder, you do have the tooling to make just about what you need.

    A small bevel, wide enough for 1/8 rod (including the flux coating) would probably suffice if the weld is just there to stabilize what's goin' on with the studs. That's a lot of inches of weld if you consider the circumference. Probably more than enough. Sit down, and figure just how much Ksi you have in approx 12-18" of weld, and you'd be surprised. More than the part will ever be subjected to.

  14. #38
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Quote Originally Posted by husq2100 View Post
    Ok, I did a typo back at the beginning of this thread where I wrote GMAW INSTEAD of GTAW, but if you haven't figured it out by now im GTAW - TIG!

    and again, it wouldn't matter if I had "STICK" , I have no experience in it!
    I thought you'd said TIG, it was the Canadian gentleman who said I was mistaken, and you were using MIG. So, being a gentleman, I've switched to MIG as pointed out by my Northern neighbor.

    I know you don't do stick, MATE. I just wished ya did Around these parts, back up in the hills where we'uns chase our kissin' cuzzins..................that's called CONVERSATION.

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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    So yell at Dave, not me

  16. #40
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Your prep for tig is just fine, no need to change anything. Personally I'd stay with the B3 even if it is 1/16" (you can always tack 2 wires together, I've done that before). The preheat and pwht is essential for that thickness of chrome moly doesn't matter which process or filler you use. 312 is a great filler for dissimilar metals, mostly stainless steels to carbon steels. You are not using stainless steel and I haven't come across a procedure for 312 in this instance (not saying there isn't one) but I have come across manufacturer's (of 4140) recommendation to use er90s-b2/b3. That's usually good enough for the girls I go out with.

    I just checked, I don't have any 312 in tig wire, I do have some 3.2mm smaw rods in 312.

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  18. #41
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Quote Originally Posted by Woznme View Post
    Your prep for tig is just fine, no need to change anything. Personally I'd stay with the B3 even if it is 1/16" (you can always tack 2 wires together, I've done that before). The preheat and pwht is essential for that thickness of chrome moly doesn't matter which process or filler you use. 312 is a great filler for dissimilar metals, mostly stainless steels to carbon steels. You are not using stainless steel and I haven't come across a procedure for 312 in this instance (not saying there isn't one) but I have come across manufacturer's (of 4140) recommendation to use er90s-b2/b3. That's usually good enough for the girls I go out with.

    I just checked, I don't have any 312 in tig wire, I do have some 3.2mm smaw rods in 312.
    I’m just more comfortable with my crappy dab hand using 1.6mm in the ~160 amp range and under, I find 2.4mm cools the puddle too much and I don’t get a nice flow. Just me

    I’m thinking of getting some 312, a dye penetration kit and do some test welds with both fillers. That’s my next step I think.

    SOTA don’t have 312 but can sell me 5kg. I just tried calling BTW but no answer.
    Last edited by husq2100; 09-14-2020 at 01:18 AM.

  19. #42
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Quote Originally Posted by farmersammm View Post
    I thought you'd said TIG, it was the Canadian gentleman who said I was mistaken, and you were using MIG. So, being a gentleman, I've switched to MIG as pointed out by my Northern neighbor.

    I know you don't do stick, MATE. I just wished ya did Around these parts, back up in the hills where we'uns chase our kissin' cuzzins..................that's called CONVERSATION.
    Sorry if I’m coming across as rude. I appreciate your time. Unfortunately over the years I’ve seen and had (on various forums) threads derail with what people would, or prefer, to do which strays from the OPs limitations and requirements.

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  21. #43
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    U groove saves on filler metal and there is also narrow gap welding. Here they are used together on thick steel. Looks like there's no way it would work but does.

    http://www.cessco.ca/main_images/PHO...gapwelding.jpg
    Last edited by Welder Dave; 09-14-2020 at 02:34 AM.

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  23. #44
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Quote Originally Posted by Woznme View Post
    Blackwoods quote $88.24 incl GST. No stock Brisbane, estimate 11 days click and collect. (ER90S-B3, 2.4mm)
    312 is not on their product list.

    BobTheWelder in Ballina shows 312 in stock. https://www.bobthewelder.com.au/Stainless-Steel/
    So you gotta bust the corona border or have it shipped to you.
    I received my small batch of 312 in 1.6mm from Bob the other day, and just got back from Brissy (had to drop a test piece at X Ray) so went to State of the Arc while up there. Good little shop that. I picked up a Dye penetrate kit, some cups (#10, #11) for standard gas lens, some Tungstens to try (E3 and Lanthanated 2%, im trying to get away from the radioactive stuff) and some gloves. Thanks for those two sources

    Ill finish the caliper mounts (that other cluster of a thread lol) before I do the test welds( I was able to get some 4140 and an axle flange end to test on), I dont like to have multiple things on the go.

    Regarding post weld heating, is a big bucket of sand an ok method of slowing the cooling rate? I figure get some beach sand, spread it out in the sun to make sure all moisture is out of it, put some in a big bucket, then when doing the housing, stand it up on end in the sand and then cover with more, filling the bucket.

  24. #45
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Heat all the sand up to at least 100 deg. c to

    a) ensure all moisture is gone

    b) minimize quenching

    When I've used sand on castings, I put the sand-buckets in front of my 100hp compressor . The air coming off the oil cooler is about 180 deg f. Even playsand in bags from the store has moisture in it.
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  26. #46
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Quote Originally Posted by albrightree View Post
    Heat all the sand up to at least 100 deg. c to

    a) ensure all moisture is gone

    b) minimize quenching

    When I've used sand on castings, I put the sand-buckets in front of my 100hp compressor . The air coming off the oil cooler is about 180 deg f. Even playsand in bags from the store has moisture in it.
    Ok I might have to get a steel drum and heat it some how ( light a fire and sit it in it or such)

    Would a welding blanket be better? I fighured sand would be better over longer hours

  27. #47
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Wood ash soot (the grey-white fluffy stuff, like what you get from a woodstove) is good for normalizing. I keep a garbage can full of the stuff for that. I suspect it would also need less preheat than sand since it's so much less dense than sand...

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