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Thread: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

  1. #76
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick View Post
    If it were me I would use ER70S-2 and TIG weld it, no preheat other than the TIG torch until both base metals bond naturally. The reason is it is more forgiving and fights cracking, much better especially when you have two dissimilar materials, and with TIG we first blend the two base metals and then add the filler which connects them very well and becomes a material very similar to both metals. Chromoly is a very sluggish metal it starts to approach titaniums sluggishness, it resists heat.




    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    The idea of no pre heat goes against everything I have read about 4140. I would not have been comfortable doing that.

    As for the anti seize, Given the temps, I would be worried about it getting thinner/fluid and creeping through the joint and contaminate the weld.

    In the end I did not bevel prep the weld as deep as I had material to build a fillet against.

  2. #77
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    I had computer troubles when I updated this thread. Here are some pics. I had to remove the coil spring mounts to get good access to the weld area and not to contaminate the weld with the GMAW that was there. I welded them back on the day after.
    Attached Images Attached Images      

  3. #78
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Looking good to me.
    Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR"
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  5. #79
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Quote Originally Posted by shovelon View Post
    Looking good to me.
    So I'm asking for curiosity's and to learn a bit, since you have more experience using B2 and B3 in situations different to what I've used it in (my experience being high static load, very low dynamic load high temp service), what sort of applications do the procedures you've based your advice here on get used for?

    being that this is a dynamic load applications which in my experience B2 and B3 don't do well in i'm guessing you've used these procedures in a similar application before?

    I'm still getting the heebie jeebies using creep resistant rod for an application like this, it go's against everything that I know.

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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Quote Originally Posted by ttoks View Post
    So I'm asking for curiosity's and to learn a bit, since you have more experience using B2 and B3 in situations different to what I've used it in (my experience being high static load, very low dynamic load high temp service), what sort of applications do the procedures you've based your advice here on get used for?

    being that this is a dynamic load applications which in my experience B2 and B3 don't do well in i'm guessing you've used these procedures in a similar application before?

    I'm still getting the heebie jeebies using creep resistant rod for an application like this, it go's against everything that I know.
    All of my purchased AWS Standard weld procedures specify B2-B3 for the filler wire. Also specifies a preheat. I did the research between D2 and B3 and found that they are essentially the same with B3 having more chromium. My take is the additional chromium creates superior grain stability upon cooling. Although D2 is easier to get, I am having no issue getting B2-B3 and notice no difference when welding.

    As far as dynamic versus static loading, you got me there. I am not the engineer on these projects. But the procedures I have to qualify for them don't indicate failures and I get approvals, such as post weld heat treated weldments, which AWS won't sell procedures for.

    Really the problem arises where the weld meets the HAZ I presume. That I point a finger at the base material, not the filler. Tensile and bend tests shed some light on that.
    Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR"
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  8. #81
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Quote Originally Posted by shovelon View Post
    All of my purchased AWS Standard weld procedures specify B2-B3 for the filler wire. Also specifies a preheat. I did the research between D2 and B3 and found that they are essentially the same with B3 having more chromium. My take is the additional chromium creates superior grain stability upon cooling. Although D2 is easier to get, I am having no issue getting B2-B3 and notice no difference when welding.

    As far as dynamic versus static loading, you got me there. I am not the engineer on these projects. But the procedures I have to qualify for them don't indicate failures and I get approvals, such as post weld heat treated weldments, which AWS won't sell procedures for.

    Really the problem arises where the weld meets the HAZ I presume. That I point a finger at the base material, not the filler. Tensile and bend tests shed some light on that.
    Only difference is B3 has twice the Chrome and twice the Moly (there abouts) of B2, as far as the applications I've used them in B2's temp ceiling before start's eating into it's creep life is 420C, where as B3's temp ceiling is 610C.

    I don't think I've ever actually seen a B2 or B3 weld fail in the HAZ, they always tend to crack right down the center of the weld, at a stress riser or on the real heavy wall stuff sometimes they crack horizontally through the weld which can propagate into the base metal, at least anything welded in the last 20 year's using the temper bead technique, the old school joints that were blocked out almost always crack in the weld metal around the joint.

    Thanks for the info mate, I'm more than happy to be wrong, I have a few stacks of B2 and B3 electrodes and rod laying about, if i can find places to use em then all the better.

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  10. #82
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Quote Originally Posted by ttoks View Post
    Only difference is B3 has twice the Chrome and twice the Moly (there abouts) of B2, as far as the applications I've used them in B2's temp ceiling before start's eating into it's creep life is 420C, where as B3's temp ceiling is 610C.

    I don't think I've ever actually seen a B2 or B3 weld fail in the HAZ, they always tend to crack right down the center of the weld, at a stress riser or on the real heavy wall stuff sometimes they crack horizontally through the weld which can propagate into the base metal, at least anything welded in the last 20 year's using the temper bead technique, the old school joints that were blocked out almost always crack in the weld metal around the joint.

    Thanks for the info mate, I'm more than happy to be wrong, I have a few stacks of B2 and B3 electrodes and rod laying about, if i can find places to use em then all the better.
    There is no wrong if it does not work for your process or application. Just like my dislike for 309. 312 just performs so much better that I only use the 309 when either the customer or WPS insists on it.
    Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR"
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  12. #83
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Quote Originally Posted by husq2100 View Post
    I had computer troubles when I updated this thread. Here are some pics. I had to remove the coil spring mounts to get good access to the weld area and not to contaminate the weld with the GMAW that was there. I welded them back on the day after.
    What caused you to have to replace/repair the axle?


    Just curious
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  13. #84
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Quote Originally Posted by shovelon View Post
    There is no wrong if it does not work for your process or application. Just like my dislike for 309. 312 just performs so much better that I only use the 309 when either the customer or WPS insists on it.
    That's the thing In my professional life (at work) I've only used B2 and B3 for creep resistant applications, read through a bunch of the qualifying work and spoken to the engineer's and blokes with hands on experience (as well as my own) and it's always come up with the same answer in my circle, B2 and B3 resist creep with high static load and temp, does not work well for dynamic loads, but my circle only does power station work so if there are other applications that are useful with the filler that's great knowledge to have, especially since I can get a lot of B2 and B3 for free at the end of a job when the surplus is getting thrown in the bin, if it does work well for other applications it could save me a bunch of money buying other fillers when I have so much of the cro-mo available for free.

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  15. #85
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Please forgive my ignorance but while I am familiar with ER70S2 or S6, 308, 309, 312, etc I have never heard of B2 or B3 or these others cited here. Can anyone point to a link or description? Are these Aus standards or generally used ones? Just trying to keep up as I doubt I would ever have a need for anything exotic being only hobbyist.
    -Dave
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  16. #86
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Quote Originally Posted by Broccoli1 View Post
    What caused you to have to replace/repair the axle?


    Just curious
    The axle housing has been widened 75mm each side to make a wider track width without having to use stupid wheel spacers or negative offset rims. I get the width but retain scrub radius and no extra load on wheel bearings.

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  18. #87
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Quote Originally Posted by ttoks View Post
    So I'm asking for curiosity's and to learn a bit, since you have more experience using B2 and B3 in situations different to what I've used it in (my experience being high static load, very low dynamic load high temp service), what sort of applications do the procedures you've based your advice here on get used for?

    being that this is a dynamic load applications which in my experience B2 and B3 don't do well in i'm guessing you've used these procedures in a similar application before?

    I'm still getting the heebie jeebies using creep resistant rod for an application like this, it go's against everything that I know.
    Don’t forget the joint is still bolted as well.

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  20. #88
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Quote Originally Posted by davec View Post
    Please forgive my ignorance but while I am familiar with ER70S2 or S6, 308, 309, 312, etc I have never heard of B2 or B3 or these others cited here. Can anyone point to a link or description? Are these Aus standards or generally used ones? Just trying to keep up as I doubt I would ever have a need for anything exotic being only hobbyist.
    https://www.norco-inc.com/ASSETS/DOC...-SpecSheet.pdf
    Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR"
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  22. #89
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Quote Originally Posted by davec View Post
    Please forgive my ignorance but while I am familiar with ER70S2 or S6, 308, 309, 312, etc I have never heard of B2 or B3 or these others cited here. Can anyone point to a link or description? Are these Aus standards or generally used ones? Just trying to keep up as I doubt I would ever have a need for anything exotic being only hobbyist.
    B2 and B3 are creep resistant (meaning they resist permanent deformation under high temp and stress) with very low carbon (half the carbon of mild steel), and high chrome (at least for steel, most stainless steels have much more chrome, but for different reasons) and high moly content (about 5 times the moly of 4140), Inconel 617 and 671 (among many others) are also creep resistant, at least here in Australia they're used almost exclusively in power stations and crackers in fuel proceeding plants
    Last edited by ttoks; 01-29-2021 at 04:21 AM.

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  24. #90
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Quote Originally Posted by davec View Post
    Please forgive my ignorance but while I am familiar with ER70S2 or S6, 308, 309, 312, etc I have never heard of B2 or B3 or these others cited here. Can anyone point to a link or description? Are these Aus standards or generally used ones? Just trying to keep up as I doubt I would ever have a need for anything exotic being only hobbyist.
    Quote Originally Posted by albrightree View Post
    Very interesting discussion, but midway through the last comment I saw "B3 is very prone to creator cracks," and it made me chuckle .

    ER90S-B3 CR-MO WELDING WIRE
    STATEMENT OF LIABILITY- DISCLAIMER
    Any suggestion of product applications or results is given without representation or warranty, either expressed or implied. Without
    exception or limitation, there are no warranties of merchantability or of fitness for particular purpose or application. The user must fully
    evaluate every process and application in all aspects, including suitability, compliance with applicable law and non-infringement of the
    rights of others. The Harris Products Group and its affiliates shall have no liability in respect thereof.
    APPLICATION:
    90S-B3 is used to weld such alloys as 2 1/4% Cr-1% Mo steels, which are found in high temperature and high pressure piping and vessels.
    May also be used on carbon steels to Cr-Mo steels but should always have careful control of preheat, inter-pass and post-heat to avoid
    cracking. Use with a pre-heat and inter-pass temperature of 375°f minimum.
    TYPICAL MECHANICAL PROPERTIES AS WELDED:
    (Post weld heat treatment 1250—1300°f for 1 hour)

    ER90S-B3 seems like it requires the most work of all . Do you have an oven, of will you be using a torch?https://www.weldingweb.com/images/smilies/blob_fire.gif
    If you were welding a chrome moly steel , something like a 4140 steel , ( in this case the OP specified 709M which was the manufacturers number ) If your hobby includes motorsports you might run into something like this on a tube frame chassis or axle component.

    Here is a link for lincoln electrics mig/tig wire offerings listed by: Product name(trade name) , AWS designation(erxx-xx), and application. If you look far enough down in the listing you will see "Low alloy steel orbital tig wires", under which you'll find the listings for SuperArc® Orbital TIG ER80S-B2, and SuperArc® Orbital TIG ER90S-B3. To fully use the high strength and crack resistance, it is imperative to follow the Pre heat, and Post heat procedures.

    HTH
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  26. #91
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Just in case anyone was still interested....

    Here's the link : https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-u...t-lengths.aspx

    Name:  mig-wires-tig-cut-lengths-hero.jpg
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    Airco 250 ac/dc Heliwelder Square wave
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    Miller Econo Twin HF
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    Dayton 225 ac/dc
    Victor torches
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    Primeweld 225 ac/dc
    Primeweld mig180
    Miller AEAD-200

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  28. #92
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    Re: Weld cracking in dissimilar steels

    Hello to everybody,

    im new here to the forum so let me tell you that im happy to finally have enrolled here!

    For what i understood i would say, welding a mild steel to basically 42CrMo4 one would have to take into consideration the Carbon equivalent of the 4140, thus i would recomend following procedure.

    Calculate the CEV (carbon equivalent) through one of the many online calculators and decide based on those numbers on proper pre and post heat and times.
    Im a little rusty now but even having a look at a schäffler diagram wont hurt.

    Furthermore i would recommend (based on personal experience welding 4130/25CrMo4) to use a filler material with high fine grain building alloys (eg Mn) in order to avoid to get brittleness among other non desirable material traits in the HAZ.
    Based on what i remember try to do the weld with the minimum heat input that is feasible for the joint.

    Considering that as i understood youre "down under" try to ask a boilermaker what he would use on that material combo.

    In case needed i could look through my documents but that might take a lil.

    kind regards

    Christian
    Last edited by Hudriwudri; 03-11-2021 at 10:28 AM.

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