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Thread: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

  1. #1
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    Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    I've heard things all over the board about 7018 rods and "heating them properly". The "board" ranges from:

    - Stick them in an exhaust pipe with an engine running for a while
    - or store them in an old refrigerator with a 60 watt light bulb on inside

    to

    - reheat at 600 degrees F for 2 hours, store at 350deg F.

    It seems more often than not the 350 degree F temperature is referenced, so I gather that may be the "proper" temperature.

    Is there something that a temperature closer to 600deg does to break apart the hydrogen and oxygen that 350deg won't do, but will prevent it from occurring at that temp (as in reheating wont break it up but storing will prevent it)?

    With the higher temperatures - one common criticism of the 7018's is that the flux coatings will become brittle and flake off, sometimes referred to as "fingernailing". Some say that can happen from too high of temperature as well as too long of a bake time at a lower temperature.

    Then there is the question of "proper storage and transport". In industrial settings it appears common place to have a facility based large rod oven (like on a floor of a high-rise going up - put a big rod oven on the floor) then welders distribute the rods to their locations with portable rod ovens so as to keep the rods hot, while the floor oven is the "storage location".

    With respect to the high temp "reheat" - it appears that can only happen once to a new box of rods also. So if the rods have to be stored long-term it wouldn't be appropriate to reheat the rods in 3 months if a box of rods was reheated once earlier for a job and left-overs were trying to be saved for another job down the road.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________

    So lets take a 5lb box of 7018 that is not sealed (either not sealed or has been open and exposed to air, either way).

    1. What is a proper temperature to bring the rod to?
    2. What is a proper time to leave the rod at said temperature?

    As an aside to #2 above - the oven temperature can't dictate the rod temperature immediately. So if the oven is at, say, 350deg and the rod is at ambient (we'll call it 75deg) - when you stick the rod in the oven at 350deg it is going to ramp up from 75 to 350 over time. Does that ramp up time detract from #2 above? So lets say it takes 5 minutes for the rod to heat through to 350 degrees and it needs to sit at 350 degrees for 30 minutes. Is that 35 minutes time in the oven? Or 25 minutes at 350deg with the 5 minute warm-up = 30 minutes?

    Do the answers to 1 and 2 above depend on weld specs/design specs? Does code call them out? Or are there multiple codes that call for multiple procedures?

    Lastly -

    Is a 350 degree temperature adequate to "reheat"? If so - how long should the rod soak at that temp? 1 hour? 2 hours? 12 hours/over-night? Is there a time limit so as to not get brittle flux?
    Last edited by FlyFishn; 09-07-2020 at 12:57 PM.

  2. #2
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    for your skill level and what your doing......

    DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT.

    burn em up.
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Mike

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by John T View Post
    for your skill level and what your doing......

    DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT.

    burn em up.
    Quite a few years ago I worked for an engineering company doing lab work (and field work, later on) testing construction materials including concrete, mortar, aggrigates, and soils. The end result of what I was doing (making essentially mud pies and blowing up concrete under heavy loads) was proving material worthiness for the job - and our company's name was stamped on the certification that it was up to the task.

    With that said - if 7018's are supposed to be "dry" when used - there is a reason. That same company I worked for, in other areas that I didn't touch, did steel structural and welding inspection also - for the same reason I was doing the testing on the other materials - to make sure it is up to the task.

    What I am trying to do is sift through the confusion and misconception with the rods. By the very nature of the replies - such as yours - saying "don't worry about it" or "store it in an exhaust pipe" - that proves how many people don't understand it or don't care.

    Relating the drying of a 7018 to concrete strength - if you were pouring a flagpole base and got some bags of Quickrete at the hardware store and a couple bags of gravel and sand to mix your own "concrete" you aren't going to be hiring out a certification company to sample the mix and do load testing on it throughout its cure time (we did 7, 14, and 28 day breaks). You're going to mix it and throw it in the hole. That doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of different mixes of concretes out there, aggregates to use, and reinforcing fibers that can give a stronger mix. So next you go breaking holes in your barn floor to put footers in for a 2 post hydraulic vehicle lift. Are you going to risk it using the same mix of concrete you did for your flag pole with some universal easy to mix batch?

    I'd rather know the concrete mixes even if I was just putting in a flagpole.

    Same difference with the welding rods. In the case of the 7018 - it isn't just the "mix" - its the temp and storage.

    From Leightrepairs' link regarding Hobart 7018's (418 model/series):

    Name:  hobart 7018 storage.jpg
Views: 351
Size:  16.1 KB

    So store at 220-350, recondition at 575deg F for 1 hour. I suspect that reconditioning period is only allowed to happen once. But if the rods are stored continuously at 220-350 will a certain long period of time be sufficient in place of a 575 deg reconditioning period for an hour?

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    No extended storage time will not replace the reconditioning cycle, if indeed a reconditioning cycle was needed. I also agree with many others here that you may be over analyzing things a bit. If you are wanting to learn to weld better there is nothing better then hood time. I would start with a rod other then 7018, such as 6010,6011, or 7014 and take the heated rod question out of the equation. Just pick one rod in say two sizes 3/32 and 1/8 and start burning rods. There are many people on here that if you post pictures of your welds that will help with your training. Just remember only perfect practice produces perfect results, so if posting pictures post details such as rod and material information. Welding has a lot to do with muscle memory and the only way to get that is practice. Short 1 or 2 inch welds are not very productive, burn whole rods. Clean material is important to learning good habits.
    Mike

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    I've burned hundreds of pounds of 7018 on " critical" items that weren't covered by code with electrodes that never saw an oven. What the OP needs to concentrate on is how to properly weld and not how overanalyzing something will make them a better weldor. In other words the average person doesn't need a degree in meteorology to know the difference between rain and snow.

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyFishn View Post
    What I am trying to do is sift through the confusion and misconception with the rods. By the very nature of the replies - such as yours - saying "don't worry about it" or "store it in an exhaust pipe" - that proves how many people don't understand it or don't care.
    I understand it perfectly.
    No confusion or misconception.

    Ive seen your stick welding.
    Your not building bridges (thank god)

    So it really wont matter for you.

    But just like all of your posts, you start rambling... going off script
    Letting your mind wander verbally...

    If you just want to know WHY it needs to be dry for critical/code work... the info is out there.

    Do you talk this much at home?
    You must drive your poor wife crazy...

    Good grief.
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  10. #8
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    If you want the rod dry w/o an oven just stick a new rod to the parent metal for 15-20 seconds and it will be dry.It's what you do when welding 7018 in the rain. A lot of us old welders aren't "sunshine" primadonnas.
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Low Hydrogen (Exx18-?? "Some here just say 7018") needs all the water out of rod. This take a temperature over 213F [101C], typically at higher temperature.

    If there is any water/H2O in the low Hydrogen, then is no longer low Hydrogen.

    So if do not dry rod it is pointless to buy a low Hydrogen rod.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyFishn View Post
    I've heard things all over the board about 7018 rods and "heating them properly". The "board" ranges from:

    - Stick them in an exhaust pipe with an engine running for a while
    - or store them in an old refrigerator with a 60 watt light bulb on inside

    to

    - reheat at 600 degrees F for 2 hours, store at 350deg F.

    It seems more often than not the 350 degree F temperature is referenced, so I gather that may be the "proper" temperature.

    Is there something that a temperature closer to 600deg does to break apart the hydrogen and oxygen that 350deg won't do, but will prevent it from occurring at that temp (as in reheating wont break it up but storing will prevent it)?

    With the higher temperatures - one common criticism of the 7018's is that the flux coatings will become brittle and flake off, sometimes referred to as "fingernailing". Some say that can happen from too high of temperature as well as too long of a bake time at a lower temperature.

    Then there is the question of "proper storage and transport". In industrial settings it appears common place to have a facility based large rod oven (like on a floor of a high-rise going up - put a big rod oven on the floor) then welders distribute the rods to their locations with portable rod ovens so as to keep the rods hot, while the floor oven is the "storage location".

    With respect to the high temp "reheat" - it appears that can only happen once to a new box of rods also. So if the rods have to be stored long-term it wouldn't be appropriate to reheat the rods in 3 months if a box of rods was reheated once earlier for a job and left-overs were trying to be saved for another job down the road.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________

    So lets take a 5lb box of 7018 that is not sealed (either not sealed or has been open and exposed to air, either way).

    1. What is a proper temperature to bring the rod to?
    2. What is a proper time to leave the rod at said temperature?

    As an aside to #2 above - the oven temperature can't dictate the rod temperature immediately. So if the oven is at, say, 350deg and the rod is at ambient (we'll call it 75deg) - when you stick the rod in the oven at 350deg it is going to ramp up from 75 to 350 over time. Does that ramp up time detract from #2 above? So lets say it takes 5 minutes for the rod to heat through to 350 degrees and it needs to sit at 350 degrees for 30 minutes. Is that 35 minutes time in the oven? Or 25 minutes at 350deg with the 5 minute warm-up = 30 minutes?

    Do the answers to 1 and 2 above depend on weld specs/design specs? Does code call them out? Or are there multiple codes that call for multiple procedures?

    Lastly -

    Is a 350 degree temperature adequate to "reheat"? If so - how long should the rod soak at that temp? 1 hour? 2 hours? 12 hours/over-night? Is there a time limit so as to not get brittle flux?

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  13. #10
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    This been discussed many times before...if you are doin code work it is neccessary...and you're not...some construction jobs they will give you a heated rod can with about 10 pds of rods in it and you will weld in the rain with em...what sense does that make? They are jus covering their *** by sayin the rods were kept warm in an oven. I use em on occasion on these buckets and stuff and believe me this stuff is the ultimate welding test. Them rods been settin in a box in my rig for months not heated, they are dry there is no water other than humidity gettin in that box and them buckets stay together for years til the stuff I weld wears out.

    Ive seen what for questions you been askin here and so fasr I have kept my 2 cents to myself but enuff is enuff and all can say is you are way overthinkin the whole thing, from the way you run a certain rod to this latest question. I understand you wanna do things the way it should be done, but what you need to realize is that first you got to learn is how to weld, and you got a long way to go before you are ready for any type of weldin for a livin. So grab some gloves put the weld hood on yer head and burn some rods eventually you might figure this out if you dont overthink it...in other words just do it.

    As for whether or not I care about this work and what I do and the end result...do you really think that if I didnt care i would still have work after 45 plus years of doin it this way??? There is not a lot of folks around this area doin this work I do and word gets around this area quick if a fella steps on his dick and screws somethin up
    Last edited by Popeye an old miner; 09-07-2020 at 05:56 PM.

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  15. #11
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    The books and code said on metal buildings said the rod must be heated be for welding. Some said do not weld in the rain.
    Some contractors will welding without heating to save money and do not care about the code.
    I did care and had the over and rod heater.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by Popeand eye an old miner View Post
    This been discussed many times before...if you are doin code work it is neccessary...and you're not...some construction jobs they will give you a heated rod can with about 10 pds of rods in it and you will weld in the rain with em...what sense does that make? They are jus covering their *** by sayin the rods were kept warm in an oven. I use em on occasion on these buckets and stuff and believe me this stuff is the ultimate welding test. Them rods been settin in a box in my rig for months not heated, they are dry there is no water other than humidity gettin in that box and them buckets stay together for years til the stuff I weld wears out.

    Ive seen what for questions you been askin here and so fasr I have kept my 2 cents to myself but enuff is enuff and all can say is you are way overthinkin the whole thing, from the way you run a certain rod to this latest question. I understand you wanna do things the way it should be done, but what you need to realize is that first you got to learn is how to weld, and you got a long way to go before you are ready for any type of weldin for a livin. So grab some gloves put the weld hood on yer head and burn some rods eventually you might figure this out if you dont overthink it...in other words just do it.

    As for whether or not I care about this work and what I do and the end result...do you really think that if I didnt care i would still have work after 45 plus years of doin it this way??? There is not a lot of folks around this area doin this work I do and word gets around this area quick if a fella steps on his dick and screws somethin up

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by smithdoor View Post
    The books and code said on metal buildings said the rod must be heated be for welding. Some said do not weld in the rain.
    Some contractors will welding without heating to save money and do not care about the code.
    I did care and had the over and rod heater.

    Dave
    Thats fine if thats what you want to do.

    On those construction jobs in the power plants they said the same thing, no welding in the rain preheat evrything to 250 or something like that keep the rods in an oven yadda yadda yadda, when they get behind and that superintendent and that project manager thinks they are gonna lose their bonus for not gettin a certain phase done early all those rules and regs goes in the ****can, you will weld in the rain and if the weld you are gonna do is wet and a weed burner or torch isnt handy weld it anyway, and this here rod can you gave me it aint workin so what just keep it plugged in anyway and make it look good.

    As for me in the here and now doin what I do and having done it most of my life since I was a kid I have a pretty good idea what works and what dont work. Ive welded 4inch thick dragline lips on buckets, lips on loaders moldboards on dozers and probly 500 tons of wear plate any where from 1/2 thick to 2 inch thick over the years and never had a failure and never used a rod oven and welded in the rain snow when it was 10 below zero and colder. I did preheat religously.

    Im not braggin about just tellin you what I know and what works for me, and I do care or I wouldnt be havin the work that I still have today with the same people over the years.

    But this kid is way out of line sayin that no one cares when they tell him to just burn the rod and forget it. Number 1 he needs to learn how to weld before he can rightly say no one cares and number 2 he needs to get a weld hood on his noggin and learn what a puddle is supposed to look like and what it supposed to do before he turns welding into rocket science inside his head...learn the basics first before you try to analyze and argue with folks that been doin this probly before his mommy and daddy got puberty
    Last edited by Popeye an old miner; 09-07-2020 at 07:09 PM.

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    For average guy just burn them up as is.
    When we were doing testing, or ASME code work, the rods were always in the oven.
    Everyday pipe work we used as is.


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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by BD1 View Post
    For average guy just burn them up as is.
    When we were doing testing, or ASME code work, the rods were always in the oven.
    Everyday pipe work we used as is.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Yup, and i can tell you for a fact Ive took quite a few weld tests where the rods were never in an oven and they passed

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Agreed..........................

    I got all the stuff to build an oven, still haven't gotten around to it. The only reason I plan to keep anything in that oven is for SUPER CRITICAL STUFF. Average stuff that I do everyday simply doesn't need a "code" rod.

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    He is an Engineer, analyzing is his nature. Overanalyzing is what he does by nature of being an engineer

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by akpolaris View Post
    He is an Engineer, analyzing is his nature. Overanalyzing is what he does by nature of being an engineer
    That explains a lot

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    No harm in learning all the theory and principles behind things, but all that knowledge won't replace hood time. Some things you can only learn by doing, and welding would be one of those. Nothing in a book can teach you to read a puddle, but as soon as you actually see the puddle and start paying attention to it you start to learn welding.
    Mike

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by akpolaris View Post
    He is an Engineer, analyzing is his nature. Overanalyzing is what he does by nature of being an engineer
    More like a broke record

    One of my girls is like that. The bad one is like that. She's coming over tonight to traumatize me some more.

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by M J D View Post
    I've burned hundreds of pounds of 7018 on " critical" items that weren't covered by code with electrodes that never saw an oven. What the OP needs to concentrate on is how to properly weld and not how overanalyzing something will make them a better weldor. In other words the average person doesn't need a degree in meteorology to know the difference between rain and snow.

    Insaneride liked this post
    Last edited by Insaneride; 09-07-2020 at 09:00 PM. Reason: But he's an armchair engineer only tho

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    I think the time has come for all of us to quit reading and replying to this thread and let the boy burn some rods and quit reading himself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    As mentioned you're an engineer.

    Here's the short version (bear with me, I am not).
    Low hydrogen is to prevent hydrogen assisted cracking.

    Hydrogen assisted cracking needs 3 things to be in play at the same time.
    1. Hydrogen passed into the weld. This can come from hydrogen disassociated in the welding arc from moisture in the flux, oil or water on the surface, or some other hydrogen containing item.
    2. Highly restrained welded area.
    3. Crack sensitive material.

    Remove any item from the list and problem is solved.
    Remove #3 by using mild steel or A36 and you basically have nothing to worry about relative to hydrogen cracking.

    #1 can be removed by using correctly stored, or reconditioned and stored, rods.
    Or by using MIG or TIG since there isn't any flux to chemically bond with moisture (or the hydrogen, I forget which).

    Storage at 250+ degF ensures there is no moisture in the storage air.
    Reconditioning can only be done at high enough temps to break the chemical bonds. As a result, long storage at lower temps will not do it.

    Here is some short reading by Lincoln Electric: https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-u...es-detail.aspx

    Most of any detailed welding questions you may ask can be answered by reading AWS D1.1
    It's pretty dry reading, but excellent. Slightly outdated copies are free to download in pdf.

    ** Most of what you need to learn is muscle memory however. Burn, burn, burn like its a Johnny Cash song on repeat.
    Last edited by MinnesotaDave; 09-07-2020 at 10:13 PM.
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    How many times have we been through this with this guy?

    Once more, say it with us: YOU DON'T NEED AN OVEN OR LO-HY ROD WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO LAY DOWN A BEAD YET.

    And you're not likely to need lo-hy rod anytime soon.

    If you're flush with cash, and you're just bound and determined to spend it on something related to welding, how about a course in welding at the local community college? It would be the best money you could probably spend on your welding.

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    There are a lot of things with welding stuff, gun upgrades, high end knives, etc. that can be summarized with the following: when you get to the point where you REALLY need it, there will be no doubt or need to ask. Short of that the answer is usually no.

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave View Post
    As mentioned you're an engineer.

    Here's the short version (bear with me, I am not).
    Low hydrogen is to prevent hydrogen assisted cracking.

    Hydrogen assisted cracking needs 3 things to be in play at the same time.
    1. Hydrogen passed into the weld. This can come from hydrogen disassociated in the welding arc from moisture in the flux, oil or water on the surface, or some other hydrogen containing item.
    2. Highly restrained welded area.
    3. Crack sensitive material.

    Remove any item from the list and problem is solved....

    Most of any detailed welding questions you may ask can be answered by reading AWS D1.1
    Excellent post - thanks for the information.

    For the record, I'm not technically an "engineer", but I have been around a lot of facets of engineering in a few industries.

    I do have the Lincoln "bible" from back when I was in college - somewhere... I have moved a few times and I am not sure where it is. I kept it in a box with other things from the course I took for future reference (I see how that worked out - not there to reference when I need it... oh well).

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