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Thread: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

  1. #51
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Some of this I had to know because of my license in California.
    Earthquake in California and bad welds will bring everyone lawyer's and sheriff to your door step.
    So I followed the rules and can sleep at night

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvin View Post
    Interesting video, Dave, thanks for posting.

    What puzzles me is how the hydrogen comes out of solution from the steel after the steel has cooled and hardened.
    After the steel cools and hardens, I would have expected the hydrogen to be "frozen in place" like CO2 bubbles in the ice cores drilled out of ancient glaciers.
    Are there microscopic "pores" or "tubes" in the weld deposit from which the hydrogen escapes?

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Meltedmetal View Post
    I'll add a couple more questions. Is it actually hydrogen that is observed? Is what we see related to the water quench,which might speak to the condition of the surface of the welds?
    Proper recommended treatment of electrodes can seldom be wrong.
    You can run the same experiment without quenching and you'll have the same result.
    I suspect they elected to quench to drop them in the oil with as much remaining hydrogen still in there as possible.
    ...or they are impatient like me
    Dave J.

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  3. #53
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Like said do it any way you want.
    It makes no difference to me.
    But I can safely say I did the work per spec. I like sleeping too.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave View Post
    I would respectfully disagree with you, non low hydrogen rods do not remove the hydrogen with chemistry/flux.
    If it did, low hydrogen rods wouldn't be needed.
    Also, if you weld with a non low hydrogen rod (or any rod that is left out of a heated storage box) and drop the weld into mineral oil, you will see the hydrogen bubbles escaping the weld.


  4. #54
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    With old 7018, the way to tell if it can be restored to full quality is to take a rod and bend it so the flux cracks off. If the steel rod inside is rusty, the 7018 cannot be made like new again. Can you still use it? Yes, but it won't weld very nicely and it won't be a low-hydrogen weld.

    metalmagpie

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Hydrogen atom is about 26 times smaller than an iron atom, so it works it way past the iron atoms - Hence diffused hydrogen.

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  7. #56
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by farmersammm View Post
    To the OP:

    Look at Lincoln holding, and reconditioning specifications.

    Look at AWS holding, and reconditioning specifications.

    The internet has it all my friend, all's ya gotta do is reach out and grab it.

    You hold yer rods at 250*, and keep them in a hotbox when they're transferred from the oven to the jobsite.

    "R" designated rods keep humidity at bay for extended periods after removal from a sealed container. If you're working in extreme humidity, and the work is fairly critical, use a hotbox to keep the rods dry. I have a little Phoenix that I use during days when the dew point is in the 70's.

    Hydrogen cracking occurs when the weld is made. It doesn't become evident immediately in many cases............it sometimes manifests itself up to 48hrs after the weld is completed.

    Preheating, which effectively reduces the cooling rate, is the best way to avoid hydrogen cracking. Interpass temps are also critical. The idea is to relieve stress during the cooling process. Elevate the temp prior to welding, and you've reduced the time the temperature comes down after the weld is completed. The slower cooling rate keeps the weld from contracting too fast, which reduces overall stress.

    That's it in a nutshell.

    Unless ya enjoy dragging it out in a long discussion, this is about all you have to know.
    EDIT: "reduce" should be "increased", third from last paragraph. My bad.

  8. #57
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave View Post
    Quantum tunneling is the natural conclusion
    Woah.

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by cwby View Post
    Hydrogen atom is about 26 times smaller than an iron atom, so it works it way past the iron atoms - Hence diffused hydrogen.
    That would be a hydrogen molecule, for hydrogen is diatomic (H2), just like Oxygen and other noble gases.
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyFishn View Post
    Thank you for replying and the info.



    I won't start an argument or discussion, but just to make a statement - that is precisely in-line with the lower end of the "board" of methods I've read about. If it takes close to 600deg to break some of the hydrogen bonds in the flux on a "reconditioning cycle" then that amount of hydrogen would always be present in the rod flux at any temps under. As to how much - no idea. I'm sure somewhere some place, organization, individual, testing lab, etc, etc has studied that. But that is the root of my post - I don't consider the fridge/light bulb method "proper" based on what I've read so I'd like to find a "proper" method.

    I don't even think, right now, that a "portable rod oven" that stores 10-15lbs of rod is proper. It might be proper as part of a system, but by itself I am not sure that it is - they don't get up to close to 600deg, I don't believe (maybe there are some that do, haven't looked all that hard).
    .
    o yeah, well let me make a statement, w/o engaging in the argument you started. you aint qualified to make that statement, and know nothing about the the industry standards/common practices, or running a job. i didnt suggest/tell you to do, what i do. i told you to buy an oven.
    i'm in earthquake territory and these inspectors dont allow your so called "lower board methods", nor do i.
    i'd like to place about 2lbs of rod out of my 300 degree oven, into your bare hand, for you to hold, while you explain to me about the moisture in them.
    so, until you buy an oven, i dont want to hear another peep of your nutty behavior/talk

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvin View Post
    A comparison would be interesting, and it seems like just the kind of test CEP would have done with his BFH. Paging CEP to the white courtesy phone!

    A search of the forum using CEP's name might even turn up something.
    Search on Yesterdays Tractor forum. If I recall he went by Puddles on there.

    Here's something to try if you want to know how much stronger 7018 is. Do a full penetration beveled butt weld with 7014 and 7018 and quench them in water after welding. 9 times out of 10 the 7018 will still pass a bend test whether the rods were out of an oven or not. There is a difference between reconditioning rods that have got wet and storing rods in an oven. Shops with ovens put new rods in when first opened. There is nothing FlyFishn will weld in the next 10 years that will require 7018 from an oven. He'll still be on his first box of rod because he spent all his time trying to figure out welding on paper rather than getting decent coupons and actually welding them.
    Last edited by Welder Dave; 09-10-2020 at 03:44 AM.

  12. #61
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by smithdoor View Post
    What is point of using a using costly low hydrogen rod if do not heat the rod to drive out the H2O.

    Dave
    I like to weld with 7018 because the all-arround electrode sold in my neck of the woods is 6013 which is well known for making wormholes (probably due to my lack of expertise to run them). I must say I am somewat byased by expending a lot of time here in WeldingWeb instead of semi-equivalent spanish welding forums...

    Besides the restart part (which is not fun with 7018 as it requires you to file/break the slag), I feel I can run much better welds with 7018 than 6013.

    Mikel

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
    That would be a hydrogen molecule, for hydrogen is diatomic (H2), just like Oxygen and other noble gases.
    When you weld, diffusible monatomic hydrogen (H) is released into the weld metal and HAZ. H is a tiny atom, as previously said.

    As it cools, it recombines in macro voids and grain boundaries as H2 molecules, which are actually a little bigger than the sum of two atoms. It then cannot diffuse back out amongst the iron structure.

    If it's a susceptible metal and/or highly stressed, then the macro voids open up, more hydrogen recombines, and causes pressure cracking.

    This is exactly how most cold cracking works.
    Last edited by Munkul; 09-10-2020 at 08:50 AM.

  14. #63
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
    That would be a hydrogen molecule, for hydrogen is diatomic (H2), just like Oxygen and other noble gases.
    Noble gasses are monatomic, that is why they are noble. Its the non-noble gasses like hydrogen and oxygen that are diatomic.

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by 123weld View Post
    o yeah, well let me make a statement, w/o engaging in the argument you started. you aint qualified to make that statement, and know nothing about the the industry standards/common practices, or running a job. i didnt suggest/tell you to do, what i do. i told you to buy an oven.
    i'm in earthquake territory and these inspectors dont allow your so called "lower board methods", nor do i.
    i'd like to place about 2lbs of rod out of my 300 degree oven, into your bare hand, for you to hold, while you explain to me about the moisture in them.
    so, until you buy an oven, i dont want to hear another peep of your nutty behavior/talk

    Just one rod from a 300* oven burns my hand. And I stick in the stinger asap. I don't do code work so I rarely plug the oven in.

    Also H2, H^2 and oh two O2 are not knoble gases and there not inert. The hydrogen is reactive with oxygen and oxygen is reactive with hydrogen.

    Also, what do you think about the mineral oil video 123? I don't believe that proves hydrogen is coming out of the welds. The mineral oil maybee out gassing but I just don't believe the welds are out gassing but I guess that's the engineer analytical thinking in me.

    Edit: I now see bent already explained noble gases vs diatomic molecules.
    For reference : some of the noble gases are helium, neon, argon, xenon,krypton and I think radon. There's a couple more but I would have to look in a book to list them. I usually think of them as ion gases tho as they noble gases have there outer valance band full. It takes a voltage potential to ionize them or cause them to become a plasma that shield a weld. If I recall, argon needs about 16 volts to ionize and helium about 26 volts. Helium is hotter. I think Shovelon calls it a rectification voltage.

    Btw 123weld, are you staying out of the fires? You may have the fires but we got the smoke. Unhealthy breathing but sunset and sunrise is pretty.
    Last edited by Insaneride; 09-10-2020 at 11:04 AM.

  17. #65
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Hydrogen and oxygen are about a NON-inert (or non-noble) as you can get!

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Munkul View Post
    When you weld, diffusible monatomic hydrogen (H) is released into the weld metal and HAZ. H is a tiny atom, as previously said.

    As it cools, it recombines in macro voids and grain boundaries as H2 molecules, which are actually a little bigger than the sum of two atoms. It then cannot diffuse back out amongst the iron structure.

    If it's a susceptible metal and/or highly stressed, then the macro voids open up, more hydrogen recombines, and causes pressure cracking.

    This is exactly how most cold cracking works.
    This is my understanding as well.
    Dave J.

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  19. #67
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Insaneride View Post

    Also, what do you think about the mineral oil video 123? I don't believe that proves hydrogen is coming out of the welds. The mineral oil maybee out gassing but I just don't believe the welds are out gassing but I guess that's the engineer analytical thinking in me.
    That's something you would have to talk to the welding engineers about. They are some of the people that do the experiment

    But in general, if hydrogen can migrate through steel, why wouldn't it out-gas?
    Dave J.

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  20. #68
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    How welds without gloves on.
    All my work I did was at a higher standard than most.
    The E7018 and other low hydrogen rods are for a higher standard work and has rules.
    There are better rods to use that does not need to be heated.
    The chemistry on 6010, 6011, 6012, 6013, 7014 and 7024 is for use with no heating.
    Now the strength of rod 6010-7024 is stronger than grade 45 steel which is used in rolled form steel building parts.
    Most here only use A36 steel. The steel will fail be for the welds.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by Insaneride View Post
    Just one rod from a 300* oven burns my hand. And I stick in the stinger asap. I don't do code work so I rarely plug the oven in.

    Also H2, H^2 and oh two O2 are not knoble gases and there not inert. The hydrogen is reactive with oxygen and oxygen is reactive with hydrogen.

    Also, what do you think about the mineral oil video 123? I don't believe that proves hydrogen is coming out of the welds. The mineral oil maybee out gassing but I just don't believe the welds are out gassing but I guess that's the engineer analytical thinking in me.

    Edit: I now see bent already explained noble gases vs diatomic molecules.
    For reference : some of the noble gases are helium, neon, argon, xenon,krypton and I think radon. There's a couple more but I would have to look in a book to list them. I usually think of them as ion gases tho as they noble gases have there outer valance band full. It takes a voltage potential to ionize them or cause them to become a plasma that shield a weld. If I recall, argon needs about 16 volts to ionize and helium about 26 volts. Helium is hotter. I think Shovelon calls it a rectification voltage.

    Btw 123weld, are you staying out of the fires? You may have the fires but we got the smoke. Unhealthy breathing but sunset and sunrise is pretty.

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave View Post
    But in general, if hydrogen can migrate through steel, why wouldn't it out-gas?
    Well, I could see it being dissolved -- and mobile -- in the steel when the steel was molten (the same way water is "dissolved" in liquid magma in the mantle of the earth), but once the steel hardened, I would expect the H to be "frozen" in place in the matrix in the same way that salt molecules would be frozen in place in frozen seawater. Judging from the video you posted, apparently that's not the case. I guess Munkul's post above explains it...
    Last edited by Kelvin; 09-10-2020 at 02:51 PM.

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave View Post
    That's something you would have to talk to the welding engineers about. They are some of the people that do the experiment

    But in general, if hydrogen can migrate through steel, why wouldn't it out-gas?

    I didn't know weld ngineers did that experiment. I honestly thought they were students.
    We've been over this before but I'm sure it will come up again. So.
    If I understand what the video is saying: 7018 adds hydrogen to the weld? I thought the flux in 7018 was meant to remove hydrogen from the weld not add it in. I would think 6010 would leave more hydrogen in the weld than fresh 7018 from an oven. I guess I'll watch the video again.

    Edit: I guess it does look like 6010 is out gassing more than 7018.
    Btw. James Stallsmith is a welding instructor not engineer.
    Last edited by Insaneride; 09-10-2020 at 04:50 PM.

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Sorry about that guys, I had a brain fart! I was swamped with work and posted when my mind was definitely elsewhere, lol.
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    The other rods have flux to help remove hydrogen .
    Low hydrogen need to drive the water.
    It is more complex but I made it simple here

    Dave


    Quote Originally Posted by Insaneride View Post
    I didn't know weld ngineers did that experiment. I honestly thought they were students.
    We've been over this before but I'm sure it will come up again. So.
    If I understand what the video is saying: 7018 adds hydrogen to the weld? I thought the flux in 7018 was meant to remove hydrogen from the weld not add it in. I would think 6010 would leave more hydrogen in the weld than fresh 7018 from an oven. I guess I'll watch the video again.

    Edit: I guess it does look like 6010 is out gassing more than 7018.
    Btw. James Stallsmith is a welding instructor not engineer.

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by smithdoor View Post
    The other rods have flux to help remove hydrogen .
    Low hydrogen need to drive the water.
    It is more complex but I made it simple here

    Dave
    Oh, ok

    I have to question the video. Why does hydrogen outgass so easily out of the iron but is trapped in mineral oil? Hydrogen is very reactive, most acids contain hydrogen because the open valence begs to react with other molecules and atoms. I usually think reactive means with oxygen tho. Ion gasses or Noble gasses have the valance band full and can't react with other elements or compounds to create a molecule therefore they are Noble. They are listed on far right of periodic table. Hydrogen is on far left.

    I would like to see the mineral experiment set up with a pilot light like when making hydrogen or dueterium (spell?) in chemistry lab.
    Problem I see with the experiment is; as I mentioned, H*2 is very reactive. Why doesn't bond with mineral oil? Maybee mineral oil is Noble? I don't know.

    Fly fishing, my inter web advice to you is: forget what you know about what you did and learn to weld if that's what you want to do.
    Last edited by Insaneride; 09-10-2020 at 07:50 PM.

  26. #74
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Insaneride View Post
    Oh, ok

    I have to question the video. Why does hydrogen outgass so easily out of the iron but is trapped in mineral oil? Hydrogen is very reactive, most acids contain hydrogen because the open valence begs to react with other molecules and atoms. I usually think reactive means with oxygen tho. Ion gasses or Noble gasses have the valance band full and can't react with other elements or compounds to create a molecule therefore they are Noble. They are listed on far right of periodic table. Hydrogen is on far left.

    I would like to see the mineral experiment set up with a pilot light like when making hydrogen or dueterium (spell?) in chemistry lab.
    Problem I see with the experiment is; as I mentioned, H*2 is very reactive. Why doesn't bond with mineral oil? Maybee mineral oil is Noble? I don't know.

    Fly fishing, my inter web advice to you is: forget what you know about what you did and learn to weld if that's what you want to do.
    define "trapped".
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    It is on YouTube it must true

    I had to follow spec There so mush junk data today it hard to what right.

    Do whatever you want.
    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by Insaneride View Post
    Oh, ok

    I have to question the video. Why does hydrogen outgass so easily out of the iron but is trapped in mineral oil? Hydrogen is very reactive, most acids contain hydrogen because the open valence begs to react with other molecules and atoms. I usually think reactive means with oxygen tho. Ion gasses or Noble gasses have the valance band full and can't react with other elements or compounds to create a molecule therefore they are Noble. They are listed on far right of periodic table. Hydrogen is on far left.

    I would like to see the mineral experiment set up with a pilot light like when making hydrogen or dueterium (spell?) in chemistry lab.
    Problem I see with the experiment is; as I mentioned, H*2 is very reactive. Why doesn't bond with mineral oil? Maybee mineral oil is Noble? I don't know.

    Fly fishing, my inter web advice to you is: forget what you know about what you did and learn to weld if that's what you want to do.

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