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Thread: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

  1. #76
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    The type of rod to use all depends on the type of loading the weldment will be under. You can't just say the rod is stronger than the steel.

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  3. #77
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
    define "trapped".
    Susspended. Captive. It doesn't look like its escaping the oil as fast as it did the iron (Fe).

    The hydrogen if that is what is migrated or out gassed pretty fast out of the iron but appears to be lingering in the oil. Btw, I did learn that mineral oil is in fact an inert chemically stable ingredient. Also tho, it can dissolve in hydrocarbons. Again, hydrogen can easily react with other elements and molecules (acid) but doesn't appear to react with mineral oil. Mineral oil is a petroleum bi product made of hydrogen, carbon and oxygen. If in fact that is hydrogen trapped in the mineral oil then mineral oil must be a noble oil as it doesn't react with hydrogen.

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by smithdoor View Post
    It is on YouTube it must true

    I had to follow spec There so mush junk data today it hard to what right.

    Do whatever you want.
    Dave
    We all do whatever we want and you can't stop us.

    Joking aside, just because a welding instructor posted a video on YouTube doesn't make it true. It was an interesting experiment but I see no proof that it was hydrogen. No spectro analysis to prove or disprove. I think a pilot light would show a hotter flame and blue and prove if it was hydrogen. Hydrogen should not be captive in mineral oil as the small atom would float out and I think faster than it did in the iron.

  5. #79
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Just check with Lincoln see if have any guarantee or even say it is ok for no heat.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by Insaneride View Post
    We all do whatever we want and you can't stop us.

    Joking aside, just because a welding instructor posted a video on YouTube doesn't make it true. It was an interesting experiment but I see no proof that it was hydrogen. No spectro analysis to prove or disprove. I think a pilot light would show a hotter flame and blue and prove if it was hydrogen. Hydrogen should not be captive in mineral oil as the small atom would float out and I think faster than it did in the iron.

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    NON HEATED 7018 is still stronger than any other mild steel electrode. Do they have a little better mechanical properties when heated, yes but for anything other than code work storing them in a rod oven isn't a necessity. Thousands of pounds of 7018 is successfully burned every day without being stored in an oven. Here's some of CEP's aka Puddles test results. 7018 out of the oven I think took 22 or 24 blows but this clearly shows non heated 7018 to be almost twice as strong as 7014. Mig surprisingly took 29 blows. Both 7018 and Mig bent completely over at the weld and had to be beat back the other way to break.

    https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/c...oolt&th=293919

    https://forums.yesterdaystractors.co...c.php?t=791248

    https://forums.yesterdaystractors.co...c.php?t=790428

  7. #81
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyFishn View Post

    So lets take a 5lb box of 7018 that is not sealed (either not sealed or has been open and exposed to air, either way).

    1. What is a proper temperature to bring the rod to?
    2. What is a proper time to leave the rod at said temperature?

    As an aside to #2 above - the oven temperature can't dictate the rod temperature immediately. So if the oven is at, say, 350deg and the rod is at ambient (we'll call it 75deg) - when you stick the rod in the oven at 350deg it is going to ramp up from 75 to 350 over time. Does that ramp up time detract from #2 above? So lets say it takes 5 minutes for the rod to heat through to 350 degrees and it needs to sit at 350 degrees for 30 minutes. Is that 35 minutes time in the oven? Or 25 minutes at 350deg with the 5 minute warm-up = 30 minutes?

    Do the answers to 1 and 2 above depend on weld specs/design specs? Does code call them out? Or are there multiple codes that call for multiple procedures?

    Lastly -

    Is a 350 degree temperature adequate to "reheat"? If so - how long should the rod soak at that temp? 1 hour? 2 hours? 12 hours/over-night? Is there a time limit so as to not get brittle flux?
    Buy the box of Lincoln 7018 at a hardware store, it's not a sealed package.

    Read the paper that comes in the package for high temp reheat.
    You could even download that off their website. They really do documents well

    350 is not enough to drive the moisture out of the rod when it's bonded in.
    It's six hundred F's or more

    Engine exhaust contains a tremendous amount of water.

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    If 7018 is "worthless" if not stored in a low-hydrogen state -- as Smithdoor suggests -- then why do the manufacturers sell it in non-sealed packages in the first place?

    And why do those non-sealed packages of 7018 not say in big, bold lettering "These electrodes must be re-dried in a 600įF oven for an hour before use"?

    Wouldn't the manufacturers be setting themselves up for lots of warranty claims, if 7018 was "no good" in a non-low-hydrogen state?

  9. #83
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    For a very detailed paper on hydrogen:

    "Understanding and mitigating hydrogen embrittlement of steels: a review of experimental, modelling and design progress from atomistic to continuum"
    https://link.springer.com/article/10...853-017-1978-5

    I preferred to read it in the downloadable pdf form.

    With 244 works cited, it appears to be a very thorough review and excellent reading material for those who have trouble sleeping.
    Win-win

    Minor corrections (that don't change the information) are found here: https://link.springer.com/article/10...853-018-2291-7
    Dave J.

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  10. #84
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvin View Post
    If 7018 is "worthless" if not stored in a low-hydrogen state -- as Smithdoor suggests -- then why do the manufacturers sell it in non-sealed packages in the first place?

    And why do those non-sealed packages of 7018 not say in big, bold lettering "These electrodes must be re-dried in a 600įF oven for an hour before use"?

    Wouldn't the manufacturers be setting themselves up for lots of warranty claims, if 7018 was "no good" in a non-low-hydrogen state?
    It's a very good general purpose rod that really only needs to be baked and stored when used in crack sensitive materials and/or if a WPS calls for it.

    Mild steel doesn't count as crack sensitive in general and the steel has to be quite a bit stronger than 36,000 psi before it matters.

    This is my take on the subject and I have not found evidence to the contrary.
    Dave J.

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave View Post
    It's a very good general purpose rod that really only needs to be baked and stored when used in crack sensitive materials and/or if a WPS calls for it.

    Mild steel doesn't count as crack sensitive in general and the steel has to be quite a bit stronger than 36,000 psi before it matters.

    This is my take on the subject and I have not found evidence to the contrary.
    I've had exactly the same from an ex Lincoln rod technologist.
    Good enough for me!

    The other thing you can get are "moisture resistant" rods (H4R) which don't need to be used hot, and last a lot longer without needing re-baking.

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Munkul View Post
    I've had exactly the same from an ex Lincoln rod technologist.
    Good enough for me!

    The other thing you can get are "moisture resistant" rods (H4R) which don't need to be used hot, and last a lot longer without needing re-baking.
    Yepper, the "R" designation means:
    "R" identifies electrodes passing the absorbed moisture test after exposure to an environment of 80ļF(26.7ļC) and 80% relative humidity for a period of not less than 9 hours.
    Dave J.

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave View Post
    For a very detailed paper on hydrogen:

    "Understanding and mitigating hydrogen embrittlement of steels: a review of experimental, modelling and design progress from atomistic to continuum"
    https://link.springer.com/article/10...853-017-1978-5

    I preferred to read it in the downloadable pdf form.

    With 244 works cited, it appears to be a very thorough review and excellent reading material for those who have trouble sleeping.
    Win-win

    Minor corrections (that don't change the information) are found here: https://link.springer.com/article/10...853-018-2291-7
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Munkul View Post
    The other thing you can get are "moisture resistant" rods (H4R) which don't need to be used hot, and last a lot longer without needing re-baking.
    Several weeks ago now I bought a few boxes of rods at my LWS. I've been going to the guys off an on since I was in college, never had a reason to get rods in that time, though. I expected to find a lot more variation there than anywhere else (big box stores - tractor supply, home depot, lowes, etc). Wrong.

    I tried to find 1/16" rods, I don't recall what type - 6011 maybe. They only carry 3/32', 1/8", and 5/32" in common rods (their 6010 was 5P, for example, no 5P+). They did have an odd ball box of Crown Alloys aluminum rods (got a 1lb bag of those to try). When I asked about the 1/16" rods I got the run around and a story of a guy that needed a small quantity of a particular rod to meet spec on a job. Not only did it take a month to get it, between all the shipping and supplier fees, the box of rods was about $100.

    I've seen online there are a bazillion types of rods. How are you guys sourcing them? Is there a supplier that is local to you that actually carries a lot of variation? Or is there an online supplier you are ordering from? Are you in a region of the country/your state that is big in oil, gas, etc that is heavy in pipe welding and the LWS's cater to that industry?

  17. #89
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    It is basically you buy the rod for your to meet spec.
    Typically the owner/license holder is one that select the rod but some cases it in the spec or drawings.
    Most here will not see this data and the work they do is not have spec's

    Here a data sheet on just one rod. It is also found in engineering books.

    https://www.hobartbrothers.com/uploa...ts/7018XLM.pdf

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyFishn View Post
    Several weeks ago now I bought a few boxes of rods at my LWS. I've been going to the guys off an on since I was in college, never had a reason to get rods in that time, though. I expected to find a lot more variation there than anywhere else (big box stores - tractor supply, home depot, lowes, etc). Wrong.

    I tried to find 1/16" rods, I don't recall what type - 6011 maybe. They only carry 3/32', 1/8", and 5/32" in common rods (their 6010 was 5P, for example, no 5P+). They did have an odd ball box of Crown Alloys aluminum rods (got a 1lb bag of those to try). When I asked about the 1/16" rods I got the run around and a story of a guy that needed a small quantity of a particular rod to meet spec on a job. Not only did it take a month to get it, between all the shipping and supplier fees, the box of rods was about $100.

    I've seen online there are a bazillion types of rods. How are you guys sourcing them? Is there a supplier that is local to you that actually carries a lot of variation? Or is there an online supplier you are ordering from? Are you in a region of the country/your state that is big in oil, gas, etc that is heavy in pipe welding and the LWS's cater to that industry?

  18. #90
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    $100 is nothing. Buy some nickel based rods and you could spend close to a $1000 for a 5kg box up here. No sense buying more rod when you're not burning the rods you already have. If you burned one rod for every paragraph you've written you might actually have welding figured out. Good grief!

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyFishn View Post
    Several weeks ago now I bought a few boxes of rods at my LWS. I've been going to the guys off an on since I was in college, never had a reason to get rods in that time, though. I expected to find a lot more variation there than anywhere else (big box stores - tractor supply, home depot, lowes, etc).
    Why ? As the gruff sounding counter guy at my old welding shop would say to me if I asked for that. "What the **** doyou want that **** for . Nobody uses that #@&* "

    I tried to find 1/16" rods, I don't recall what type - 6011 maybe. They only carry 3/32', 1/8", and 5/32" in common rods (their 6010 was 5P, for example, no 5P+). They did have an odd ball box of Crown Alloys aluminum rods (got a 1lb bag of those to try). When I asked about the 1/16" rods I got the run around and a story of a guy that needed a small quantity of a particular rod to meet spec on a job. Not only did it take a month to get it, between all the shipping and supplier fees, the box of rods was about $100.
    Brick and mortar places can't afford to keep inventory nobody buys, or uses.


    I've seen online there are a bazillion types of rods. How are you guys sourcing them? Is there a supplier that is local to you that actually carries a lot of variation? Or is there an online supplier you are ordering from? Are you in a region of the country/your state that is big in oil, gas, etc that is heavy in pipe welding and the LWS's cater to that industry?
    Amazon or the Internet is the best place to buy small amounts of varieties of specialty welding rod.
    Welding shops don't make a lot of money on #2 boxes of 1/16" dia. E6011, and 2lb tanks of CO2. Also the market is flooded with cheap flux core, and mig machines. I would imagine the sales of Stick electrodes isn't going to be the next growth industry. I don't think I've used over a pound of 1/16" welding rod in 35 years, and probably half of that was specialty stainless.

    HTH
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  20. #92
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    I never purchased 11 pound box
    I only purchased 50 pound cans.

    When I was doing a lot of welding I could use burn a box a week

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by Welder Dave View Post
    $100 is nothing. Buy some nickel based rods and you could spend close to a $1000 for a 5kg box up here. No sense buying more rod when you're not burning the rods you already have. If you burned one rod for every paragraph you've written you might actually have welding figured out. Good grief!

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    You wouldn't want to buy 50lbs. of nickel rod. It would be thousands of dollars.

  22. #94
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    I did not use nickel rod.
    But I did buy 50 pounds of hard facing rod. Not cheap and do not leave unattended.
    I also purchased brazing rod 50 pounds at time.
    Both I lock up in safe

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by Welder Dave View Post
    You wouldn't want to buy 50lbs. of nickel rod. It would be thousands of dollars.

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    Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Your off track with a lot of your read theoryís. And at this point, you shouldnít be concerned with any of it.
    The AWS and CSA requirement low hydrogen electrode is 250f for electrode storage. You donít have an oven thatís hot enough for proper code spec reconditioning. Nor do you need to do that in my opinion. Spend more time practicing.
    High oven storage or reconditioning temps arenít causing your finger-nailing. I suspect itís your electrode work and travel angles that your using thatís causing your finger nailing issues. Itís self induced.
    Last edited by snoeproe; 09-12-2020 at 09:40 AM.
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  25. #96
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    Hard to believe this thread is 4 pages long now....

    I think this Flyfish'n guy is trollin everyone with these threads....
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  27. #97
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    I think he is just inquisitive. Sometimes more than necessary, but none the less harmless
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    I think he spent all his money buying the machine and can't afford to get some decent steel to practice on.

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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    While it does seem that way, there's no way for anyone to know his financial situation.
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    Re: Heating rods - specifically 7018, Ovens, Etc?

    He's mentioned cost of rods and other things a few times...

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