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Thread: Weld pulled the other way?

  1. #26
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    Re: Weld pulled the other way?

    Quote Originally Posted by farmersammm View Post
    So..................of course it pulled towards the right side. It's the way the weld will contract when cooling. Not a real surprise here.

    Woulda pulled either way, even if you'd supported the heavy side (shrug)

    If you want straight, you gotta offset. Tack the joint offline...............not a 90, but an accute angle leaning to the left. You gotta anticipate the shrinkage.

    Cut it apart, and start over. Probably won't pull square if you add a bead on the left side.

    Put the stuff together with all the bolts, then tack it on left side. Take the bolts off that hold the heavy stuff, and tap the remaining piece over to the left a bit, then weld. It's a matter of judgement, and ya might wind up straight when done. It's a tough one.

    I sometimes do stuff that has to be straight. Usually I weld it first, as best as I can, then machine it.

    Fixturing won't get you there, it'll always be off a bit when it cools. Like I say......you gotta tough one going.
    @ Welder Dave

    My point in case

  2. #27
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    Re: Weld pulled the other way?

    I hope this helps................

    You need the caliper to be dead nutz on. Angles are critical, or the pistons won't engage the pads right, and **** them.

    If it was me..........and I'm not the last word.

    Start with a blank. The piece that has to be bolted to the caliper housing thingy. Make the blank thicker than it has to be.........only about maybe 1/4" thicker or so.

    Do your best to weld it to the other flat piece, as square as possibble. Leaning to the left a bit is good. You got that 1/4" to play with.

    Weld it out, then machine it to be square with the rotor, or with the part of the caliper that has to engage the rotor.

    This is some hard crap man, you're not the only one who's experienced this stuff.

    To give you a baseline.....................

    This is a rotary table that's been set up to hold a chuck in the horizontal position. It has to be dead nutz.

    Name:  welding then machining3.JPG
Views: 126
Size:  222.3 KB You can see the shim plate under the rotary table. Note that it's been machined......surface milled.

    The plate was fabricated..........welded the studs in......plug welds.....usually minimal distortion when they cool.......BUT THEY DO SHRINK.

    Name:  welding then machining1.JPG
Views: 126
Size:  240.1 KB

    The plate was bolted to the mill table, in the position it would be used, then the top of the plate was milled to be absolutely flat/square with the rotary table. I mean, we're talkin' thousands to bring it up square............

    Name:  welding then machining2.JPG
Views: 128
Size:  241.3 KB Gotta bit of rust on it because I use coolant, but it's dead nutz.

    I think you might do good to weld your blank on the thing, make it big enough to be machined square, and drilled. It's a rough thing to do. The caliper is uber sensitive to alignment. I think, if you sit down for a bit, you can figure out how to do it.

  3. #28
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    Re: Weld pulled the other way?

    Quote Originally Posted by farmersammm View Post
    I hope this helps................

    You need the caliper to be dead nutz on. Angles are critical, or the pistons won't engage the pads right, and **** them.

    If it was me..........and I'm not the last word.

    Start with a blank. The piece that has to be bolted to the caliper housing thingy. Make the blank thicker than it has to be.........only about maybe 1/4" thicker or so.

    Do your best to weld it to the other flat piece, as square as possibble. Leaning to the left a bit is good. You got that 1/4" to play with.

    Weld it out, then machine it to be square with the rotor, or with the part of the caliper that has to engage the rotor.

    This is some hard crap man, you're not the only one who's experienced this stuff.

    To give you a baseline.....................

    This is a rotary table that's been set up to hold a chuck in the horizontal position. It has to be dead nutz.

    Name:  welding then machining3.JPG
Views: 126
Size:  222.3 KB You can see the shim plate under the rotary table. Note that it's been machined......surface milled.

    The plate was fabricated..........welded the studs in......plug welds.....usually minimal distortion when they cool.......BUT THEY DO SHRINK.

    Name:  welding then machining1.JPG
Views: 126
Size:  240.1 KB

    The plate was bolted to the mill table, in the position it would be used, then the top of the plate was milled to be absolutely flat/square with the rotary table. I mean, we're talkin' thousands to bring it up square............

    Name:  welding then machining2.JPG
Views: 128
Size:  241.3 KB Gotta bit of rust on it because I use coolant, but it's dead nutz.

    I think you might do good to weld your blank on the thing, make it big enough to be machined square, and drilled. It's a rough thing to do. The caliper is uber sensitive to alignment. I think, if you sit down for a bit, you can figure out how to do it.
    I appreciate your time to reply.

    I won’t be machining this part. I do not have a mill and only access to a lathe.

    The other one I have done has the caliper within 0.2mm parallel with the rotor over pad length and height. The slop in pads etc will mean the pads will just wear uneven by that small amount.

    And just to re clarify , the part pulled to the left, not the right, hence the title of the post and the multiple times I said it pulled away from the weld....

  4. #29
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    Re: Weld pulled the other way?

    IMHO, welding always has to be done before machining if it's an important tolerance thing.

    Laminating plate......................

    Name:  welding then machining4.JPG
Views: 126
Size:  186.0 KB You're doin' the best ya can to make it right, but it's not super critical at this point. It's just a blank

    Name:  welding then machining5.JPG
Views: 125
Size:  189.5 KB Now, you can whittle it down to what it HAS to be.

    Name:  welding then machining6.JPG
Views: 126
Size:  168.6 KB You gots a finished product. It didn't matter that it pulled/moved during welding. All that matters is the final true to size/tolearance product..............machining after welding.

    There is stored stress in weldments, and they can bite you sometimes, but it's rare for most of the stuff we do. It shouldn't move when machined. The stress is minimal, and shouldn't show up when doing your machining.

  5. #30
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    Re: Weld pulled the other way?

    Quote Originally Posted by husq2100 View Post
    I appreciate your time to reply.

    I wonít be machining this part. I do not have a mill and only access to a lathe.

    The other one I have done has the caliper within 0.2mm parallel with the rotor over pad length and height. The slop in pads etc will mean the pads will just wear uneven by that small amount.

    And just to re clarify , the part pulled to the left, not the right, hence the title of the post and the multiple times I said it pulled away from the weld....
    Aw Hell, I wasted your time..........I'm sorry. Didn't mean to.

  6. #31
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    Re: Weld pulled the other way?

    You should do it 9 more times to see if any others move in the opposite direction. Then, conclude that perhaps something shifted in transport? Any chance the got quenched after tacking?

    Why not notch reposition and reweld that part?
    Last edited by tapwelder; 09-21-2020 at 07:55 PM.

  7. #32
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    Re: Weld pulled the other way?

    Can you put a gusset between the bolts up to the vertical piece? Even if it was temporary could keep everything in alignment. Jigs are used to hold weldments in alignment all the time.

  8. #33
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    Re: Weld pulled the other way?

    Quote Originally Posted by farmersammm View Post
    Aw Hell, I wasted your time..........I'm sorry. Didn't mean to.
    All good mate, maybe I should have written 100 degrees and pulled back to 90 ?

    Here is a pic of the other one Iíve done.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  9. #34
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    Re: Weld pulled the other way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Welder Dave View Post
    Can you put a gusset between the bolts up to the vertical piece? Even if it was temporary could keep everything in alignment. Jigs are used to hold weldments in alignment all the time.
    It does end up with a gusset like that, but I left it out, like the first one I did successfully, as allowing the fillet weld to be continuous. Then adding the gusset last. It wasn’t a problem last time.

    I have a feeling it has to do with travel direction, material cross sectional area and heat build up (start of run vs finish of run) The other one was mirrored so would have been welded the other direction to itself (same direction for my hand)

  10. #35
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    Re: Weld pulled the other way?

    Quote Originally Posted by tapwelder View Post
    You should do it 9 more times to see if any others move in the opposite direction. Then, conclude that perhaps something shifted in transport? Any chance the got quenched after tacking?

    Why not notch reposition and reweld that part?
    Why bother commenting?

  11. #36
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    Re: Weld pulled the other way?

    Well, was there a conclusion drawn. A few test might reveal something obvious. 10 seems to be a good number for testing. You are headed for 2 already?

    On the other hand, why build again if that can be used? With a 100 percent weld you could make it look machines.

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  13. #37
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    Re: Weld pulled the other way?

    Quote Originally Posted by tapwelder View Post
    Well, was there a conclusion drawn. A few test might reveal something obvious. 10 seems to be a good number for testing. You are headed for 2 already?

    On the other hand, why build again if that can be used? With a 100 percent weld you could make it look machines.
    So the first one I did moved bugger all, was good enough for use, the second one fabricated the same way (mirrored part), moved, and im on my way to 10 the same? Yeah nice one mate.

    I ask a question on weld distortion and shrinkage, yet there has been little discussion of that, it seems people want to treat the symptom not the cause.

    Re grinding out, just as much as a pain as drilling 5 holes in two bits of plate, and either way I have to solve the problem of whats going on, at the very least do something different to change the outcome, so again, hardly on my way to 10.

    just remember, anyone can throw stones.....

  14. #38
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    Re: Weld pulled the other way?

    I think the problem is that you used left handed stainless instead of right handed stainless.

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    Re: Weld pulled the other way?

    Quote Originally Posted by walker View Post
    I think the problem is that you used left handed stainless instead of right handed stainless.
    I guess taking this piss is a way of saying you don’t have a clue...

    Ive given some info that may actually have some credence to what happened, have a think about it if you can visualise it. I might well be wrong but at least I’m trying to figure out something.
    Last edited by husq2100; 09-21-2020 at 09:55 PM.

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  17. #40
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    Re: Weld pulled the other way?

    Quote Originally Posted by husq2100 View Post
    So the first one I did moved bugger all, was good enough for use, the second one fabricated the same way (mirrored part), moved, and im on my way to 10 the same? Yeah nice one mate.

    I ask a question on weld distortion and shrinkage, yet there has been little discussion of that, it seems people want to treat the symptom not the cause.

    Re grinding out, just as much as a pain as drilling 5 holes in two bits of plate, and either way I have to solve the problem of whats going on, at the very least do something different to change the outcome, so again, hardly on my way to 10.

    just remember, anyone can throw stones.....
    Apparently, most folk have not run into the issue. Hence, it is your question. You research it and share results it with us.

    I was not in any way trying to put you down.

    I was literally just grinding a tungsten, thinking hmmm. Why do my tungsten get so heavy when I grind them, they should get lighter.. Not uncommon for me to dip,dip,dip after I start welding again.

    Good luck on your supports.

  18. #41
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    Re: Weld pulled the other way?

    Quote Originally Posted by husq2100 View Post
    So the first one I did moved bugger all, was good enough for use, the second one fabricated the same way (mirrored part), moved, and im on my way to 10 the same? Yeah nice one mate.

    I ask a question on weld distortion and shrinkage, yet there has been little discussion of that, it seems people want to treat the symptom not the cause.

    Re grinding out, just as much as a pain as drilling 5 holes in two bits of plate, and either way I have to solve the problem of whats going on, at the very least do something different to change the outcome, so again, hardly on my way to 10.

    just remember, anyone can throw stones.....
    I'm not totally sure you're up with distortion.

    You can handle it when doing fitup, and final weldout. Or you can deal with it post weld.

    I think that you cannot deal with it post weld........you'd have to heat the bead to shrink it........not something anyone in his right mind would do.

    So, I'm thinking you have to deal with it in the fitup. So, we're back to square one..........gotta do a judgement thing on the "lean".

  19. #42
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    Re: Weld pulled the other way?

    Asking why ? Will not. Necessarily yield a solution. Probably why you you get less theory and more "how to" and prevention answers. Like if you got several the make a fixture off the vehicle.

  20. #43
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    Re: Weld pulled the other way?

    Small as that tab is, you can't heat the "free metal" to move it. Any changes have to occur where the bead is.................and ya can't heat a bead.

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    Re: Weld pulled the other way?

    I suppose a guy could take a good protractor, the ones that read in seconds, and measure how much the damn thing pulled, then set it up on the second go-round to offset that pull...............dunno..........

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    Re: Weld pulled the other way?

    Anyways, by the looks of it, it's a FWD front end, and those doooooods don't care if anything's straight............they just mess it up the first time they hit the dirt with it ROFL.

  23. #46
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    Re: Weld pulled the other way?

    Quote Originally Posted by farmersammm View Post
    I'm not totally sure you're up with distortion.

    You can handle it when doing fitup, and final weldout. Or you can deal with it post weld.

    I think that you cannot deal with it post weld........you'd have to heat the bead to shrink it........not something anyone in his right mind would do.

    So, I'm thinking you have to deal with it in the fitup. So, we're back to square one..........gotta do a judgement thing on the "lean".
    Yep , will give it more lean based off how this one went. I’m still thinking weld direction played a roll, with this one the weld was finished at caliper bolt hole end, the critical end. I do not have amp control during welding. The amps are set for good start and run, but given the size of pieces it’s MUCH hotter at end of run than start. When I did the other piece, I was starting at bolt hole end.

    Maybe something to think about...

  24. #47
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    Re: Weld pulled the other way?

    Quote Originally Posted by farmersammm View Post
    Anyways, by the looks of it, it's a FWD front end, and those doooooods don't care if anything's straight............they just mess it up the first time they hit the dirt with it ROFL.
    I actually do care... that’s why I’m here lol

    And it’s not the front

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    Re: Weld pulled the other way?

    I've flapped my gums enough on this one. IMHO, "precision" and "welding" don't go together. I've been thru the mill, and learned my lesson.

    I promise to keep my mouth shut from here on out.

  26. #49
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    Re: Weld pulled the other way?

    Was this TIG welded ? My unscientific guess would be that there was more internal contracted fusion material than fillet filler material. any gap between the two intersecting corners of the 2 components could cause it to contract in the opposite direction. One possible sign this occurred would be burn through to the side of the joint. I didn't see any in the pictures provided. In Mig or stick welding most of the metal is deposited out at the toes, and the contraction would be in the way we normally see it. Timing , amperage , travel speed. and amount of filler could cause this contrary contraction. Do you have a foot pedal current control, or just set amps, and ON/OFF contactor ?


    I do agree with Farmersamm's line of reasoning. Welded things distort , other welded things distort more. Most things I've had to weld that were precision, +or- .001" +or- 1/2 deg. were finished machined after welding. Generally a good idea to retap all threaded holes also. You said you didn't have access to machining for this job, but I think it is still possible to do without machining. Even when work was clamped in a fixture, I've always tacked opposite sides of the joint quickly to minimize contraction to one side.

    Maybe show a pic of the two assemblies side by side would help.

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  28. #50
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    Re: Weld pulled the other way?

    Quote Originally Posted by albrightree View Post
    Was this TIG welded ? My unscientific guess would be that there was more internal contracted fusion material than fillet filler material. any gap between the two intersecting corners of the 2 components could cause it to contract in the opposite direction. One possible sign this occurred would be burn through to the side of the joint. I didn't see any in the pictures provided. In Mig or stick welding most of the metal is deposited out at the toes, and the contraction would be in the way we normally see it. Timing , amperage , travel speed. and amount of filler could cause this contrary contraction. Do you have a foot pedal current control, or just set amps, and ON/OFF contactor ?


    I do agree with Farmersamm's line of reasoning. Welded things distort , other welded things distort more. Most things I've had to weld that were precision, +or- .001" +or- 1/2 deg. were finished machined after welding. Generally a good idea to retap all threaded holes also. You said you didn't have access to machining for this job, but I think it is still possible to do without machining. Even when work was clamped in a fixture, I've always tacked opposite sides of the joint quickly to minimize contraction to one side.

    Maybe show a pic of the two assemblies side by side would help.

    Cheers
    That’s some really good info, thank you.

    Yes TIG, at least 3 passes. 1.6mm filler no weave for root, then 2.4mm filler and weave on subsequent passes. I’m pretty sure I didn’t burn through to the internal corner on the root, but don’t have any pics of that. No foot or amp control during welding. Only downslope 0-15 seconds available

    Are you wanting a pic of the first one I made and this one?

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