Seal driver

[farmersammm]

It seems that I'm installing more seals in the past week than I've done in years.

The blank is turned to size.



Initially, I wasn't thrilled with the mandrel...........it slipped. But, when I removed the part, it was apparent that I had a slight ridge inside the bore in the part. This was the cause of the slippage. The mandrel has have a pretty perfect surface to expand into........something to check in the future. This one got by me.



I'm using a carbide insert with a pretty healthy radius on the leading edge. This leaves a radius on the inside of the shoulder. This would interfere with the mating part. Best thing I've found......use a parting tool to remove the radius.

[farmersammm]

I hate threading mild steel (1018 cold roll). It tears, and leaves a mess. These came out pretty nice for mild steel.

Some minor tearing, but all in all........not too bad.

Was watching this dood on YouTube, and he was using heavy tapping fluid to thread some nasty stuff on the lathe. Best thing I've seen for threading this garbage. I'm glad the guy mentioned it.



The main striker plate where it's gonna be. The extra space under the nut is for different inside discs to match whatever seal ID I happen to run into. This way you just make one plate,, and can install the discs according to the shaft size you're dealing with.



While I was at it, I went ahead and made two handles. One for use on a press......the shorter one. And one for hand held striking with a hammer....the longer one.



Make a disc for the seal I'm working with tomorrow, then just make more for different sizes I run into. A guy could actually get by without the lineup discs when using a press, but they're handy when you're hand striking the driver.

[Capt B]

Well done I made a few a couple years ago out of aluminum. Even knurled the handles. It's nice to be able to just make the right size disc as needed.

[CAVEMANN]

Sammm, if the mild steel is tearing there is a problem with your tooling or setup.

[12V71]

Sammm, if the mild steel is tearing there is a problem with your tooling or setup.

Yeah, It's been a few years, but I've used those triangular carbide inserts on all sorts of steel and had no problems getting a near mirror finish. Including the 60 degree threading inserts. And I do know how to grind a HSS blank too.

[M J D]

I believe carbide gets a bad rap since a lot of it's geared towards heavy cuts and has a larger radius on the cutting edge. The ones with a smaller radius give a much better finish at the expense of less metal removal. Another option is HSS inserts which have the capability of being changeable and can easily be touched up to give an even finer finish.

[farmersammm]

Pleasant day in the shop today. Cold rainy day...........all snug in the shop with the heaters runnin'.

I tossed the expandable arbors in the scrap bucket where they belong, after stripping the allen set screw. Dunno when I bought them, but it was a long time before I ever had a lathe. Pure junk.......I DO NOT RECOMMEND.

Anyways...........I needed an arbor for the discs. There will be many sizes along the way, so might as well make an arbor for turning the things.

Found an old piece that I wasn't happy with when making the roll bender, and used it to make an arbor. Waste not, want not

I find that my mill has a tendency to run between .002-.006 oversize when running an annular cutter. It's because the quill is not up to the standards usually found in a real Bridgeport. Is what it is.

So, we're goin' a bit oversize on the arbor.

The arbor is turned so that I can handle up to 1" thick plate.



Added some wrench flats to the end of the piece so that everything can be properly tightened.



Popped an alignment blank on the arbor, and taped the shaft so's the spacer wouldn't dig into the metal.



Pop 'er in the vise, and tighten it all down.......then put it on the lathe. The sharpie mark is to verify that the disc isn't moving during the machining process.



BTW/////////////////// If you take a look at the thread on the reclaimed roll bender shaft, you'll see what I mean by tearing. I can't say how grateful I am for the dood on YouTube showing a better lube for the process. The old thread was made with plain ol' 90W heavy gear oil. The tapping fluid is light years ahead in terms of ease of threading, and finish.

[farmersammm]

It machined effortlessly, and I was able to take a very aggressive cut compared to the cheeeeeeezy expanding arbor.

So, now I have two handles, and an arbor to make unlimited size alignment, and driving discs. This particular driver disc will go to 3.750 outside diameter. The small alignment discs can go from about 1.125 to around 3.500 diameter. Virtually unlimited sizes within the range. I can also make a larger/smaller driver disc in any range I need.........further expanding the possible combinations.

You can see the versatility of just having to make the small discs for any possible seal ID.

Another great product straight from Uranus.

[farmersammm]

In response to the tooling suggestions..............

I believe I've gone through this before. 1018 is one of the gummiest steels there is to machine. It sucketh verily

You can run carbide, and get a good finish, if you run at insane speeds and feeds. I just don't find this method very doable, or practical. This stuff will sort of respond to small radius, high rake, triangular carbide inserts with very small depth of cut.............but you wind up burning them up, or snapping them, if you get after it. I like a good carbide insert for removing lots of material, with no degree of fine finish, although the finish will improve if you load them up to the max. Something I rarely ever do, or need to do. I like the CCMT inserts for removing lots of material fast.

For finish cuts on 1018, if y'all recall, I came up with a very nice grind in HSS. It will give the same finish from 70rpm to 1000rpm. It simply cuts nice, no matter the speed. On my small machine, it's comfortable with cuts up to .030 per side..............or cuts as little as .0005 DOC. It simply cuts.

The main shaft diameter was hogged with carbide, and the critical arbor diameter was done with HSS.

I still haven't found an insert that will thread this crap either. They're a disaster. I prefer a plain ol' 60* ground HSS profile tool.

Now.........if you get into working with 12L14, Stressproof, or Fatigueproof.............that's another matter entirely............it's a dream to thread.

I found an old pic from when I was developing the new bit. Side by side 1018 cold roll

[farmersammm]

I really wanted to address tool geometry, as I see it. Not totally dispositive, but my take on the problem.

Let's take a look at interrupted cuts first...............

This is a round blank that hasn't been dressed with a grinder. It's raw from the cutting torch.

Every time you leave a smooth area, and transverse the gap............then hit the next smooth area...........we're talkin' HUGE SHOCK STRESS ON THE CUTTING TOOL. It's like hitting a wall.

Contrary to popular thinking....................a heavy radiused, reinforced, edge............

If you're hitting a wall, do you want more resistance?? Absolutely not!!

You actually WANT A SHARP TOOL WITH A SHARP POINT.

This is the tool if you're looking back at the lathe operator. The material that's being cut is to the right of the picture. Notice the sharp point, and very severe ramp/rake.

Now, let's look at the tool from the top. You're looking towards the lathe operator, with the material that's being cut to the right of the picture.

This tool actually cut the blank in the first picture with no resharpening, or dressing. Some damage to the point, but not enough to affect cutting. This is the real deal. about 3" diameter blank turning at 190rpm. No lube. Any of y'all that know how to figure surface speeds know that this is fairly fast for 1018, which cuts at around 100sfm.

This tool was used out to the finish cut. No changeover to my custom finish tool...........just using the sharp pointed tool on out the final cut. The feed was slowed down on the finish cut to the minimum the lathe is capable of.......at this point, the speed was maintained at 190rpm. That's a final cut with a sharp point...............finish is better than the best carbide bit at a less-than-light-years-per-second speed. THIS STUFF WORKS. This was the finish prior to polishing with ScotchBrite..............that's why the piece is stuck out from the chuck.........safety thing ya know.

After polishing

Certain materials require certain tooling. 1018/A36 is one of those materials.

[farmersammm]

NOW LET'S GET TO THE ABSOLUTE JUNK..........

Triangular inserts are crap.........period. Might work on other types of steel, but not mild 1018. I know..........I've used 'em.

This POS tiny radius insert supposedly good for surface finish..............yeah...........if you can get to last through an entire machining cycle............the damn point is so small, and brittle, that it self destructs halfway through the job. FAIL

P.S.: Notice the damaged point..........pure crap

[12V71]

NOW LET'S GET TO THE ABSOLUTE JUNK..........

Triangular inserts are crap.........period. Might work on other types of steel, but not mild 1018. I know..........I've used 'em.

This POS tiny radius insert supposedly good for surface finish..............yeah...........if you can get to last through an entire machining cycle............the damn point is so small, and brittle, that it self destructs halfway through the job. FAIL

P.S.: Notice the damaged point..........pure crap

Your just being stubborn. Use one with a larger radius for roughing in and use more speed. Also keep the cutter slightly below the centerline so it wont rub. 20,000 machine shops cant be wrong.

[farmersammm]

Ok, so I've badnouthed carbide.................so.........let's see what it's actually good at.

Some Fatigueproof......................... Using a CCMT insert............

PURDY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not to be outdone........THE URANUS CUSTOM GRIND WEIGHS IN AT THE LAST FEW THOU ON THE SAME PROJECT, SAME GRADE STEEL.........................



HSS will do the same job, sometimes as good as.........OR BETTER, on most materials. Carbide, if used on a certain substrate will do the job longer. That's about all that carbide has going for it. BUT HSS CAN SNEAK UP ON A DIMENSION.........CARBIDE CAN'T

[farmersammm]

Let's put this all in context.

I'm pretty much the guy that can tell/show ya what ya can do with that little 13x40 lathe. Not some Godawful huge LeBlond...........just a humble little shop lathe.

You're gettin' what works here in my shop. The real deal. Small dreams for small equipment.

I go outside the borders because I have to. It's all about making low powered equipment work on stuff that's usually reserved for bigger stuff. You can do theeees!

I truly recommend that most folks in my position, abandon carbide in favor of HSS. Most of us don't have the power to push the carbide to it's best performance.

Carbide has its siren song..............no sharpening..........plug 'n play. But.......it's doggone expensive for the bang it produces on small lathes. I really promote folks learning to grind their own tools. Grinding taught me what the steel does, how it behaves........it's a good education.........and it's cheap.

[12V71]

I get what you are saying now, I started spinning stuff in the late 70's with a big Clausing for the old man's heavy equipment then in the early 90's helped out a friend that was starting up a hydraulic shop. He had a huge Korean built machine with at least a 3" hole through the head, I built a lot of replacement cylinder rods on that one and a lot of replacement cylinder glands. At the time about the only HSS we used were our custom ground boring cutters to put internal grooves for seals in the glands did most everything else with inserts. Even internal threading.

But with smaller machines you can trade brute power for speed. Been looking for one like you have just to make bushings and spacers, lately I've had some call for that sort of stuff.

[M J D]

Lots of smoke and mirrors for a seal driver. At the end of the day a large 3/4" drive socket or piece of tube or pipe does the same thing.

[12V71]

I dont get terribly fancy with mine unless they have to be really precise. The torch cut plate is a slug from another job that just happens to cover 90 percent of the truck and trailer wheel seals I have to deal with. I have more plates too.

[CAVEMANN]

One other thing Sammm, the little radius at the shoulder where a shaft changes diameter is a good thing, a perfectly square "inside" corner will give a fracture point or a source to crack there. I got a little ticked at your comment about taking .030 per side. I was cutting a large shaft out of 4140 FREE MACHINING (leaded) steel on our 48" x 240" Mueser Lathe. The shaft started at a little over 9000lbs IIRC, I set it up on the Horizontal mill & cut the centers, move to the lathe & get it dialed in & cut a spot for the steady rest. I started cutting the shaft flipping it end for end every 2 cuts to balance warpage. At one point my boss showed up & asked "how much are taking off junior", I told him .500 on the side, or an inch off the diameter. He screamed "YOU CAN'T DO THAT", i just giggled & said "I CAN'T", & he said "NO", I just told him to go back to his office & be stupid in there. That lathe had so many feed & speed settings that you could get it to do almost anything you needed it to. I was using a new grade of carbide insert, 5/8 square, about 3/16 thick, negative rake, I got the machine set up so that it would make about 2 1/2 "C" curls, & break & fall into the CHIP COLLECTOR I had devised to make things easier. That giant LATHE & the HORIZONTAL MILL were my favorite machines to run.

[CAVEMANN]

Carbide has its siren song..............no sharpening..........plug 'n play. But.......it's doggone expensive for the bang it produces on small lathes. I really promote folks learning to grind their own tools. Grinding taught me what the steel does, how it behaves........it's a good education.........and it's cheap.

Sammm, we used a lot of shank type silver brazed carbide tools, they were anything but throw away, we had 2 grades of those in assorted cutter profiles, one gread was for steels and a more forgiving grade that worked well on the MONDI CAST IRON PIPE & was also good for interrupted cuts, it didn't hold up quite as good as the on for steel but hey, we could sharpen them. We had to thread, flange & two hole & face the to length the MONDI pipe for the strong acid they made in the acid plant, some of it was 40 inch pipe.

[farmersammm]

CAVEMAN: You're right about a radius. Some things I even increase the radius size.

About the .030 DOC...........my little rice burner starts to huff and puff at around .035. It just isn't real big in the nutz department

I start to get a good chip at around .035 at a surface speed around 110, and the PRINCELY feed of .004/rev At this point you can hear the vibration increase, and hear the geartrain start to complain. After that epic spindle bearing fix when I bought the damn thing, I'm too poooooosified to push it any harder

Some guys were destined for greatness......................I'm destined for disaster

[farmersammm]

Lots of smoke and mirrors for a seal driver. At the end of the day a large 3/4" drive socket or piece of tube or pipe does the same thing.

Better watch what you say It looks like I have another wheel rebuild coming up this Winter

[M J D]

Better watch what you say It looks like I have another wheel rebuild coming up this Winter

It does make for good entertainment and discussions that go in some bizzare direction.

[12V71]

Had a crank seal pushing job today. Cat C15 engine, the Cat tool pushes the wear sleeve on the crank at the same time it pushes the seal into the front or rear housing. Takes about 20 minutes to do both ends with the engine on blocks. First bolt the adapter to the crank. then place seal and pusher on adaptor.
Then crank the nut down til it stops.
Bingo... perfectly set. It is an expensive tool though.

[Pbets]

Sam good job on threading that 1018 cold rolled. it looks typical and as good as it gets with that gummy cold rolled. anyone that can do much better is either lying or of a different material than straight cold rolled 1018. Paul

[Stick-man]

Nice job Samm on the installer. I was fortunate enough to have a couple great truck parts sales dudes that gave me an installer for any Chicago Rawhide seal I purchased. I have a pretty goos set of them.