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Thread: 20amps??? Or 30amp breakers???

  1. #26
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    Re: 20amps??? Or 30amp breakers???

    Quote Originally Posted by Asben Welding View Post
    Found out you can't edit a post, still learnin' the ropes.. Hope this works.
    The "edit" feature times-out after a while.

    It became necessary several years ago when "flame war" arguments got out of hand and people were going back to edit posts to make it look like they didn't say particular things.
    (you know, grade school type stuff - LOL)
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  2. #27
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    Re: 20amps??? Or 30amp breakers???

    Honestly, I can't remember anytime a breaker tripped while using a 120v welder. The only thing that ever trips the breaker is the chop saw........which runs on a 12ga 100ft extension cord.........and it has to be a hot day to do it, and a heavy overloaded cut like thick round stock.

    I always ran my little 120v welder on either a 50, or 100ft, extension cord. The only noticeable effect was a power drop with the longer cord.

    I run my box, and outlets, directly off the bottom of the meter on the power pole. All 120v, 20a, circuits are 12ga wired. All 240v circuits are wired 6ga, except for the small 20a circuit running the lathe, which is wired 12ga. The difference is in the extension cords that run from the 240v outlets. I run 6ga for 50amp loads, and run 10ga for 30amp loads.

    My 120v extension cords vary according to the load. For the mill, I use 10ga.......for everything else I use 12ga. All are 100ft cords.

    Your breaker works either in "fast trip", or "slow trip", mode. For most applications, all things working properly, the heat buildup isn't enough to trip the breaker. Sudden high loads, or shorts, will trip the fast trip feature.

    If a piece of equipment is labeled 20amps, I think it's sorta stupid to put it on a 30amp protected circuit. That breaker protects the wiring inside the wall, and you're equipment.

    Breakers are used for a reason.

  3. #28
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    Re: 20amps??? Or 30amp breakers???

    oh yeah, before I forget. I run 3 different 240v outlets. One 20amp, one 30amp, and one 50amp. I never run a 30amp, or 20amp, load on a 50amp breaker. It's just plain ol' unsafe IMHO. I WANT that breaker to trip if the equipment rating is exceeded.

  4. #29
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    Re: 20amps??? Or 30amp breakers???

    Quote Originally Posted by smithdoor View Post
    Best way is install a dryer plug

    Dave
    I concur fully. I have an extra Dryer outlet in my shop. Been running it with zero issues for over 10 years..20 A is more than good for my Lincoln weld-pak 180 HD...
    Welds last longer than Love...

  5. #30
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    Re: 20amps??? Or 30amp breakers???

    Thank you.
    Most do not know since around 1980 the NEC homes require a 4 wire 240 volt 30 amp plug witch can used as a120 volts 30 amp outlet.
    The other is if dryer or range is other side wall just ad a outlet to garage.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by sapperb View Post
    I concur fully. I have an extra Dryer outlet in my shop. Been running it with zero issues for over 10 years..20 A is more than good for my Lincoln weld-pak 180 HD...

  6. #31
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    Re: 20amps??? Or 30amp breakers???

    Quote Originally Posted by farmersammm View Post
    Honestly, I can't remember anytime a breaker tripped while using a 120v welder. The only thing that ever trips the breaker is the chop saw........which runs on a 12ga 100ft extension cord.........and it has to be a hot day to do it, and a heavy overloaded cut like thick round stock.

    I always ran my little 120v welder on either a 50, or 100ft, extension cord. The only noticeable effect was a power drop with the longer cord.

    I run my box, and outlets, directly off the bottom of the meter on the power pole. All 120v, 20a, circuits are 12ga wired. All 240v circuits are wired 6ga, except for the small 20a circuit running the lathe, which is wired 12ga. The difference is in the extension cords that run from the 240v outlets. I run 6ga for 50amp loads, and run 10ga for 30amp loads.

    My 120v extension cords vary according to the load. For the mill, I use 10ga.......for everything else I use 12ga. All are 100ft cords.

    Your breaker works either in "fast trip", or "slow trip", mode. For most applications, all things working properly, the heat buildup isn't enough to trip the breaker. Sudden high loads, or shorts, will trip the fast trip feature.

    If a piece of equipment is labeled 20amps, I think it's sorta stupid to put it on a 30amp protected circuit. That breaker protects the wiring inside the wall, and you're equipment.

    Breakers are used for a reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by farmersammm View Post
    oh yeah, before I forget. I run 3 different 240v outlets. One 20amp, one 30amp, and one 50amp. I never run a 30amp, or 20amp, load on a 50amp breaker. It's just plain ol' unsafe IMHO. I WANT that breaker to trip if the equipment rating is exceeded.
    I would respectfully disagree Sam.
    Nothing unsafe about having a 20 amp item on a larger breaker - otherwise a ceiling fan at 0.5 amps on a 20 amp circuit would be unsafe.

    Breakers are sized to prevent fires from overheated wires, not to prevent your equipment from bursting into flames.

    For small 140 amp mig rated at 90 amp output on a 20 amp circuit, they often put in the small print that the 140 amp output requires a 30 amp circuit.

    My brother had a Miller 130 for a while, that dang thing would pop the 20 amp breaker easily on high output...based on the manual, it should have.
    It would also trip the over-heat protection in the summer...
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  8. #32
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    Re: 20amps??? Or 30amp breakers???

    Quote Originally Posted by sapperb View Post
    I concur fully. I have an extra Dryer outlet in my shop. Been running it with zero issues for over 10 years..20 A is more than good for my Lincoln weld-pak 180 HD...
    Your 180HD is a a 240v machine.
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  9. #33
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    Re: 20amps??? Or 30amp breakers???

    In case any of you are wondering, I am probably just gonna leave the breakers as is for safety. Thanks for all the opinions guys. I learned quite a bit.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

  10. #34
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    Re: 20amps??? Or 30amp breakers???

    Quote Originally Posted by Ch4p View Post
    In case any of you are wondering, I am probably just gonna leave the breakers as is for safety. Thanks for all the opinions guys. I learned quite a bit.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
    Good choice.
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  11. #35
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    Re: 20amps??? Or 30amp breakers???

    Quote Originally Posted by Ch4p View Post
    In case any of you are wondering, I am probably just gonna leave the breakers as is for safety. Thanks for all the opinions guys. I learned quite a bit.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
    I just found your other post and that you only have one receptacle on the patio where you'll be welding.

    One thing to remember about us discussing the 30amp CB and yer 20amp welding machine power cord plug is that the allowance for a 30amp breaker only applies to a DEDICATED receptacle.

    I would bet your patio receptacle shares a CB with other receptacles.

    So that would be a No Go on swapping out a 20amp CB to a 30 amp CB.
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  12. #36
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    Re: 20amps??? Or 30amp breakers???

    Quote Originally Posted by Broccoli1 View Post
    I just found your other post and that you only have one receptacle on the patio where you'll be welding.

    One thing to remember about us discussing the 30amp CB and yer 20amp welding machine power cord plug is that the allowance for a 30amp breaker only applies to a DEDICATED receptacle.

    I would bet your patio receptacle shares a CB with other receptacles.

    So that would be a No Go on swapping out a 20amp CB to a 30 amp CB.
    Yea I have a nearby 20amp receptacle that I know for sure is not going to share with other appliances. I know this cause I have other 15amp tools like my circular saw that I was worried might trip that one outlet on the patio. Just gonna grab one of the 25ft 8/3 AWG welding extension cords to run out to the patio to make sure I have the least resistance possible.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

  13. #37
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    Re: 20amps??? Or 30amp breakers???

    Quote Originally Posted by G-ManBart View Post

    Dedicated outlets for non-continuous loads like a welder have their own set of rules in the NEC, as quoted above. The outlet and breaker panel need to be marked as a dedicated circuit so someone doesn't use them incorrectly.
    As if a label is going to stop someone from using the outlet incorrectly.

    Another thing not mentioned is that residential circuit breakers have a limited number of "trips" before they become too weak to give you the whole rated amps of the breaker. If you have too many nuisance trips, replace the breaker with a new unit.

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  15. #38
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    Re: 20amps??? Or 30amp breakers???

    Quote Originally Posted by PDXsparky View Post
    As if a label is going to stop someone from using the outlet incorrectly.
    Maybe Mr. Know-It-All can point to where in the NEC it states the receptacle needs to be marked? And also which electricians will actually do that without a worry of being sued.

    I know of no electricians in my area that will wire more amps into any given size wire no matter what you're going to run on it. Detroit could be different, the people burned half of it down years ago.

  16. #39
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    Re: 20amps??? Or 30amp breakers???

    I believe that labeling an outlet doesn't do anything to protect the user.

    Name:  electrical upgrade5.JPG
Views: 82
Size:  240.9 KB My shop heater circuits. I'm running 3, 5Kw heaters. 6ga wiring running two, and 10ga wiring running a single. Like everything in the container...........it's all run on drop cords running back to the power pole.

    Name:  electrical upgrade3.JPG
Views: 83
Size:  182.2 KB Wired 10ga for 30amp load.

    Name:  electrical upgrade4.JPG
Views: 80
Size:  172.7 KB But, because of the prevalence of stuff being wired with NEMA 50 plugs, I use a 50amp receptacle. The receptacle leg is for another 5Kw floor heater that I might want to run instead of the ceiling heater occassionally.

    You can plug a 50amp load into the thing, but it ain't a gonna work for very long because it's limited at the source. The label just gives fair warning that the circuit is gonna open up if you load it up. Say........I'm gone, and K'kins inadvertently plugs something in with a higher draw, it's gonna open the breaker

    Name:  electrical upgrade24.JPG
Views: 80
Size:  227.7 KB Because the wiring is meant to handle 30amps, the breaker on this circuit is 30amps. All my drop cords, that run everything in the "shop", run from this source. Funky, and a PITA, but it works. Had i had the money at the get go, I woulda just buried a big cable between the pole and the container. Is what it is I guess. I can't see spending additional money to retrofit everything at this point.

  17. #40
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    Re: 20amps??? Or 30amp breakers???

    If I'm working with everything in the container during the Winter.......................there's FIVE extension cords running into the shop. One for the lathe, one for the mill, one for lighting, and two for the heaters.

    But, I already bought all those damn cords over the years...........so I ain't gonna throw them out.

  18. #41
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    Re: 20amps??? Or 30amp breakers???

    That works.
    I have use extension cords in pass.
    My father used standard 12 gauge 120 volt cord and adapters to welder plug and receipital.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by Ch4p View Post
    Yea I have a nearby 20amp receptacle that I know for sure is not going to share with other appliances. I know this cause I have other 15amp tools like my circular saw that I was worried might trip that one outlet on the patio. Just gonna grab one of the 25ft 8/3 AWG welding extension cords to run out to the patio to make sure I have the least resistance possible.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

  19. #42
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    Re: 20amps??? Or 30amp breakers???

    Quote Originally Posted by TraditionalToolworks View Post
    Maybe Mr. Know-It-All can point to where in the NEC it states the receptacle needs to be marked? And also which electricians will actually do that without a worry of being sued.

    I know of no electricians in my area that will wire more amps into any given size wire no matter what you're going to run on it. Detroit could be different, the people burned half of it down years ago.
    NEC Article 110.22(A) is your answer. When you have a welder with a plug the plug and receptacle become the disconnect. Hard wire rules are different. Going off memory they added the marking requirements in 2014.
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  21. #43
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    Re: 20amps??? Or 30amp breakers???

    Quote Originally Posted by G-ManBart View Post
    NEC Article 110.22(A) is your answer. When you have a welder with a plug the plug and receptacle become the disconnect. Hard wire rules are different. Going off memory they added the marking requirements in 2014.
    I've read that before, but a disconnect is not marking the outlet as you previously suggested. Keep digging deeper, you're clearly showing you don't know WTF you're talking about and making it up as you go along.

    Bottom line is that a licensed electrician wouldn't put more amps into wire even with a disconnect. It just doesn't happen. They're afraid of being sued, because none of them can determine what type of device people will plug into it. There is absolutely no reason to not run new wire, it is the least costly item when upgrading a circuit.

  22. #44
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    Re: 20amps??? Or 30amp breakers???

    Quote Originally Posted by farmersammm View Post
    You can plug a 50amp load into the thing, but it ain't a gonna work for very long because it's limited at the source.
    Better way is to use a 30 amp receptacle like a NEMA L6-30R and a pigtail that goes from NEMA L6-30P to NEMA 5-50R, and then plug in the NEMA 5-50P to the pigtail. My $0.02 and what I do on my 30 amp circuit.

  23. #45
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    Re: 20amps??? Or 30amp breakers???

    Quote Originally Posted by TraditionalToolworks View Post
    I've read that before, but a disconnect is not marking the outlet as you previously suggested. Keep digging deeper, you're clearly showing you don't know WTF you're talking about and making it up as you go along.

    Bottom line is that a licensed electrician wouldn't put more amps into wire even with a disconnect. It just doesn't happen. They're afraid of being sued, because none of them can determine what type of device people will plug into it. There is absolutely no reason to not run new wire, it is the least costly item when upgrading a circuit.
    Your comment makes zero sense and you have no idea what you're talking about. The NEC section has already been stated that says you're wrong. If what you said was correct there wouldn't be an entire section covering welder outlets in the NEC.

    Rules for general use outlets are different than for dedicated circuits. This topic comes up regularly on both welding and electrical forums, and people who are electricians post about putting dedicated welder outlets in that follow these rules all the time.

    I never said marking an outlet makes it a disconnect. The receptacle with the plug IS the disconnect in this situation. You simply don't understand the topic.
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  25. #46
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    Re: 20amps??? Or 30amp breakers???

    Quote Originally Posted by TraditionalToolworks View Post
    Maybe Mr. Know-It-All can point to where in the NEC it states the receptacle needs to be marked? And also which electricians will actually do that without a worry of being sued.

    I know of no electricians in my area that will wire more amps into any given size wire no matter what you're going to run on it. Detroit could be different, the people burned half of it down years ago.
    Since you quoted my post, are you saying that I'm the Mr. Know-it-all?

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    Re: 20amps??? Or 30amp breakers???

    Just wanted to chime in about labeling circuits and anything else - use embossed labelling tape (aka old school raised letters) where possible. The exception would be labels that wrap around individual wires - printed in this case are great.

    Buy an old school embosser if you can (ebay is a great source) - then label EVERYTHING for two weeks (you will do this, just watch). They will last forever (relatively), and whoever works on things down the line (yourself included, pun intended) will thank you.

    This has been mentioned before but label things in a topographical manner (not XYZ's room, instead use northwest room, north porch, etc).

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    Re: 20amps??? Or 30amp breakers???

    Quote Originally Posted by PDXsparky View Post
    Since you quoted my post, are you saying that I'm the Mr. Know-it-all?
    Not at all, Mr. Know-It-All chimed in, in short order.

    I agree with what you wrote and don't think a label would prevent people from putting a device in the outlet.

  28. #49
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    Re: 20amps??? Or 30amp breakers???

    A dedicated welder circuit is different than a standard circuit because duty cycle of the welder comes into play.

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    Re: 20amps??? Or 30amp breakers???

    Quote Originally Posted by TraditionalToolworks View Post
    Better way is to use a 30 amp receptacle like a NEMA L6-30R and a pigtail that goes from NEMA L6-30P to NEMA 5-50R, and then plug in the NEMA 5-50P to the pigtail. My $0.02 and what I do on my 30 amp circuit.
    Iffin ya need 240v, sure but the OP asked about 120v.
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